2022/23 Roster Thread XIII: Where the 13th Floor Has Been Located

[Magua]

Our situation is just shit lol. The only thing going for us is that we will be able to draft high these next few years. Devils don't have any negative players signed long term.

We have ellis who has played less than 10 games, risto, hayes, atkinson whose injury is looking serious, 2 back surgery couts, and deslaurier. Thats almost 34 million down the drain. Absolutely ludicrous.

The Flyers have a good young core of Gauthier, Farabee, Cates, Frost, Tippett, Foerster, Brink, Allison, Lycksell, and you read it here! No, I mean you read it here earlier today.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

We live in a society. A Maximum Pain

society.

Is this man really trying to claim #maximumpain?

 

[deadhead]

Devils did a tremendous job dropping to the bottom, then building with loads of high draft picks, opportunistic trades and UFA signings. This is the opposite of what Chuckles the Sad Clown did: squander assets, make mediocre picks, lose trades and overpay garbage UFAs. Yeah?

Devils floundered for years, had two #1 picks (Nico and Hughes) which is pure luck with the lottery, took Zacha #6 and gave him away for Haula, McLeod #12, Holtz #7, Hughes #4.
Then bought Hamilton, Tatar, Palat, traded Ty Smith (#17) and a 3rd for Marino. Traded a 2nd for Graves, 3rd for Siegenthaler, 2nd and 3rd for Vanacek and Caps' 2nd.
Did a good job finding role players like Wood (4th rd), Schmid and Sharangovich (5th rd), Bastian (2nd rd), Zetterlund (3rd rd). Lucked into Bratt in the 6th rd.

Don't think there was any "plan" in NJ, they had a last hurrah in 2011-12 losing in the SC finals (similar to Montreal), missed the playoffs 5 straight seasons, lost in the 1st rd, missed 4 more seasons. Didn't start building the team until the 2016 draft after 4 losing seasons. Didn't trade for picks until 2019 (Hall).

Picked up Severson in the 2012 draft (#60), Wood in 2013 (#100), Zacha in 2015 (#6), McLeod, Bastion and Bratt in 2016 (#12, #141, #162), Nico, Boqvist and Zetterland in 2017 (#1, #36, #63), Smith, Schmid and Sharangovich in 2018 (#17, #136, #141), Hughes in 2019 (#1), Holtz and Mercer in 2020 (#7, #18), Hughes and Stillman in 2021 (#4, #29).

#18 in 2020 in the Taylor Hall trade. #20 in 2020 for Blake Coleman. #29 in 2021 for Palmieri and Zajac.

 

[flyerslducks]

Devils floundered for years, had two #1 picks (Nico and Hughes) which is pure luck with the lottery, took Zacha #6 and gave him away for Haula, McLeod #12, Holtz #7, Hughes #4.
Then bought Hamilton, Tatar, Palat, traded Ty Smith (#17) and a 3rd for Marino. Traded a 2nd for Graves, 3rd for Siegenthaler, 2nd and 3rd for Vanacek and Caps' 2nd.
Did a good job finding role players like Wood (4th rd), Schmid and Sharangovich (5th rd), Bastian (2nd rd), Zetterlund (3rd rd). Lucked into Bratt in the 6th rd.

Don't think there was any "plan" in NJ, they had a last hurrah in 2011-12 losing in the SC finals (similar to Montreal), missed the playoffs 5 straight seasons, lost in the 1st rd, missed 4 more seasons. Didn't start building the team until the 2016 draft after 4 losing seasons. Didn't trade for picks until 2019 (Hall).

Picked up Severson in the 2012 draft (#60), Wood in 2013 (#100), Zacha in 2015 (#6), McLeod, Bastion and Bratt in 2016 (#12, #141, #162), Nico, Boqvist and Zetterland in 2017 (#1, #36, #63), Smith, Schmid and Sharangovich in 2018 (#17, #136, #141), Hughes in 2019 (#1), Holtz and Mercer in 2020 (#7, #18), Hughes and Stillman in 2021 (#4, #29).

#18 in 2020 in the Taylor Hall trade. #20 in 2020 for Blake Coleman. #29 in 2021 for Palmieri and Zajac.

All this told me was they have a pretty damn good scouting department, they value their assets, and you also forgot nemec, Mukhamadullin, cap space. Their so called "no plan" was to be patient, build via the draft, not overpay for useless negatives (risto), and use their assets wisely. You basically stated what we should do lol.

 

[dats81]

Chuck unintentionally got one thing right: as a rebuilding team you have to bottom out, pick in the top-5 for multiple years and refrain from signing significant players in free agency.

The current injury streak will also have an impact on the standings and draft order. We are trapped in purgatory as CF may actually survive this longer than we thought.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Devils floundered for years, had two #1 picks (Nico and Hughes) which is pure luck with the lottery, took Zacha #6 and gave him away for Haula, McLeod #12, Holtz #7, Hughes #4.
Then bought Hamilton, Tatar, Palat, traded Ty Smith (#17) and a 3rd for Marino. Traded a 2nd for Graves, 3rd for Siegenthaler, 2nd and 3rd for Vanacek and Caps' 2nd.
Did a good job finding role players like Wood (4th rd), Schmid and Sharangovich (5th rd), Bastian (2nd rd), Zetterlund (3rd rd). Lucked into Bratt in the 6th rd.

Don't think there was any "plan" in NJ, they had a last hurrah in 2011-12 losing in the SC finals (similar to Montreal), missed the playoffs 5 straight seasons, lost in the 1st rd, missed 4 more seasons. Didn't start building the team until the 2016 draft after 4 losing seasons. Didn't trade for picks until 2019 (Hall).

Picked up Severson in the 2012 draft (#60), Wood in 2013 (#100), Zacha in 2015 (#6), McLeod, Bastion and Bratt in 2016 (#12, #141, #162), Nico, Boqvist and Zetterland in 2017 (#1, #36, #63), Smith, Schmid and Sharangovich in 2018 (#17, #136, #141), Hughes in 2019 (#1), Holtz and Mercer in 2020 (#7, #18), Hughes and Stillman in 2021 (#4, #29).

#18 in 2020 in the Taylor Hall trade. #20 in 2020 for Blake Coleman. #29 in 2021 for Palmieri and Zajac.

See those multiple high picks you listed? They sought to draft quantity and made it happen. That's a rebuild. It's a plan.

The opposite of Fletcher's management.

 

[BiggE]

I feel bad for our young players and prospects. They work so hard to get to the NHL and end up getting drafted by the worst organization in the league. Oh what a joy it must be to have all the skill and creativity they’ve developed over the years beaten out of them by the likes of Biceps, Lappy and Torts while Flahr the Hutt shoves buckets of frosted lard down their throats.

All of a sudden, working on the farm or in a factory doesn’t sound so bad.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The Devils promoted Fitzgerald to GM in 2020. They have two AGMs, both of which started low in the org ~5 years ago. MacKinnon was promoted in 2020, Madigan this year. Tyler Dellow and Matt Cane were hired in 2019.

Yes, 2019 is when they started to get their shit together. It's not the same regime.

They had to make over their entire D corps too. Every team will have hits and misses, but look at who they acquired:

• Ryan Murray, 27
• Dougie Hamilton, freshly turned 28 and a true 1D
• Siegenthaler, 23
• Ryan Graves, 26
• Christian Jaros, 25
• John Marino, 25

All potential long-term solutions. I'm sure that was random chance.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Idiots for trading for a Hart Trophy winner. It’s better to trade for the Risto’s of the world.

Then again Risto is a lock for a Conn Smythe if they ever get in.

 

[flyersnorth]

It’s just funny with the rebuilding concept.

Can a total burn to the ground tank have consequences? Might it not work in the grand scheme if management, and other areas don’t perform well?

For all of their failures. Which fans do we think have had more fun over the last few years? Who has been more entertained?

Jersey? Toronto? Edmonton? Montreal? Or the Flyers.

Flyers are always looking for a shortcut.

Devils missed the playoffs 9 of the last 10 years. Flyers are 5 in and 5 out over the same period.

Flyers short-circuit the badness by bringing in mediocrity so that they *don't* miss the playoffs that many times, and today's product on the ice is a direct result of embracing mediocrity.

Who do we have to build around? Who is a legitimate star (in the making) in this organization? Who screams "next captain"?

There's just no one. Not at the level you need to have a legitimately competitive team.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Devils floundered for years, had two #1 picks (Nico and Hughes) which is pure luck with the lottery, took Zacha #6 and gave him away for Haula, McLeod #12, Holtz #7, Hughes #4.
Then bought Hamilton, Tatar, Palat, traded Ty Smith (#17) and a 3rd for Marino. Traded a 2nd for Graves, 3rd for Siegenthaler, 2nd and 3rd for Vanacek and Caps' 2nd.
Did a good job finding role players like Wood (4th rd), Schmid and Sharangovich (5th rd), Bastian (2nd rd), Zetterlund (3rd rd). Lucked into Bratt in the 6th rd.

Don't think there was any "plan" in NJ, they had a last hurrah in 2011-12 losing in the SC finals (similar to Montreal), missed the playoffs 5 straight seasons, lost in the 1st rd, missed 4 more seasons. Didn't start building the team until the 2016 draft after 4 losing seasons. Didn't trade for picks until 2019 (Hall).

Picked up Severson in the 2012 draft (#60), Wood in 2013 (#100), Zacha in 2015 (#6), McLeod, Bastion and Bratt in 2016 (#12, #141, #162), Nico, Boqvist and Zetterland in 2017 (#1, #36, #63), Smith, Schmid and Sharangovich in 2018 (#17, #136, #141), Hughes in 2019 (#1), Holtz and Mercer in 2020 (#7, #18), Hughes and Stillman in 2021 (#4, #29).

#18 in 2020 in the Taylor Hall trade. #20 in 2020 for Blake Coleman. #29 in 2021 for Palmieri and Zajac.

So to sum it all up just say the devils were smart enough to know when to rebuild and not piss away assets like chuckles, it's not that hard, you can skip the essay and just say chuckles has failed retooling, and isn't capable of a proper rebuild

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Devils promoted Fitzgerald to GM in 2020. They have two AGMs, both of which started low in the org ~5 years ago. MacKinnon was promoted in 2020, Madigan this year. Tyler Dellow and Matt Cane were hired in 2019.

Yes, 2019 is when they started to get their shit together. It's not the same regime.

They had to make over their entire D corps too. Every team will have hits and misses, but look at who they acquired:

• Ryan Murray, 27
• Dougie Hamilton, freshly turned 28 and a true 1D
• Siegenthaler, 23
• Ryan Graves, 26
• Christian Jaros, 25
• John Marino, 25

All potential long-term solutions. I'm sure that was random chance.

I'm sure it's all completely accidental though. Fletcher is basically the same. Just gotta give him more time

 

[TCTC]

Flyers are always looking for a shortcut.

Devils missed the playoffs 9 of the last 10 years. Flyers are 5 in and 5 out over the same period.

Flyers short-circuit the badness by bringing in mediocrity so that they *don't* miss the playoffs that many times, and today's product on the ice is a direct result of embracing mediocrity.

Who do we have to build around? Who is a legitimate star (in the making) in this organization? Who screams "next captain"?

There's just no one. Not at the level you need to have a legitimately competitive team.

I don't disagree, but I refuse to accept the Devils as some kind of role model for how to build a team. They've won the draft lottery three times in the last 5 years. With that much luck it's almost impossible to f*** up a rebuild.

 

[BiggE]

Looking at their schedule between now and the Christmas break, I’ve got them going 2-11-3, which might be generous.

This would get them to 9-19-7 for a whopping 25 points in 35 games. Yup, that top 5 pick is getting closer every day!

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't disagree, but I refuse to accept the Devils as some kind of role model for how to build a team. They've won the draft lottery three times in the last 5 years. With that much luck it's almost impossible to f*** up a rebuild.

You can absolutely f*** up a rebuild with that much luck if all your decisions outside of those picks are awful.

Which is what the Flyers would do.

 

[deadhead]

The Devils promoted Fitzgerald to GM in 2020. They have two AGMs, both of which started low in the org ~5 years ago. MacKinnon was promoted in 2020, Madigan this year. Tyler Dellow and Matt Cane were hired in 2019.

Yes, 2019 is when they started to get their shit together. It's not the same regime.

They had to make over their entire D corps too. Every team will have hits and misses, but look at who they acquired:

• Ryan Murray, 27
• Dougie Hamilton, freshly turned 28 and a true 1D
• Siegenthaler, 23
• Ryan Graves, 26
• Christian Jaros, 25
• John Marino, 25

All potential long-term solutions. I'm sure that was random chance.

Except they started the process almost a decade ago. They lucked into 2 #1 picks Iwhich are hard to miss), didn't start drafting well until 2016 and like you said, didn't have good management until 2020.

And note there's a timing issue, they could trade for 1sts in 2019 and 2020 b/c veterans with value hit the last year of their contracts.

You don't need a decade to rebuild, but if you don't do it right, it can take a decade (or forever, if you're Buffalo).

The first step is accepting that you are rebuilding, it requires patience, and you have to focus on long-term goals and not settle for quick turnarounds that aren't sustainable.
Flyers had two opportunities, 2012 and 2018, and Holmgren nixed that option both times.

 

[BiggE]

You can absolutely f*** up a rebuild with that much luck if all your decisions outside of those picks are awful.

Which is what the Flyers would do.

Buffalo has already done it. 15 first round picks since 2013, 11 in the top 10, 5 in the top 5. This is the level of failure that Cuck dreams of. Yay

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Except they started the process almost a decade ago. They lucked into 2 #1 picks Iwhich are hard to miss), didn't start drafting well until 2016 and like you said, didn't have good management until 2020.

And note there's a timing issue, they could trade for 1sts in 2019 and 2020 b/c veterans with value hit the last year of their contracts.

You don't need a decade to rebuild, but if you don't do it right, it can take a decade (or forever, if you're Buffalo).

The first step is accepting that you are rebuilding, it requires patience, and you have to focus on long-term goals and not settle for quick turnarounds that aren't sustainable.
Flyers had two opportunities, 2012 and 2018, and Holmgren nixed that option both times.

I find it very difficult to reconcile tossing aside 1OA picks as no doubters when 2OA in 2017 was Nolan Patrick and more than half the world thought they were wrong.

The rebuilding vs not stuff is religious zealotry and nothing I say has anything to do with it. The point is that the Devils acquired Defensemen who could have been long term solutions.

 

[TB87]

I'm interested in his take on the 31st ranked offense.

He’d respond by taking about defense.

“Offense doesn’t matter, defense wins championships.”
- Chuck the C**k

*not a real quote*

 

[Starat327]

You guys are still doing this to yourselves?

 

[flyersnorth]

I don't disagree, but I refuse to accept the Devils as some kind of role model for how to build a team. They've won the draft lottery three times in the last 5 years. With that much luck it's almost impossible to f*** up a rebuild.

100%. There is a lot of luck involved.

I think the point is that they put luck on their side, and made some more future-looking moves and acquisitions, and accepted that it would take time? They didn't rush - or at least that's my perception.

You could argue that DeAngelo is really one of the few future-looking moves that Fletch has made. He's young, has a solid offensive skillset, and could be part of a rebuild. I doubt that's why he got him, though.

But Ellis, Niskanen, Braun, Deslauriers, Anisimov, Stewart, Yandle, Ristolainen.... none of those are particularly astute, and they signal a front office still bent on maximizing the on-ice result in pursuit of the playoffs. That was Fletcher's mandate.

I think we're entering a forced-rebuild phase where they can't ignore reality any longer. The sheer amount of injuries might save Fletcher's job, unfortunately. And if they have to pivot, they need to do so having given out large contracts to middling or seriously injured players. And having bled so many draft picks in the pursuit of playoffs.

 

[BillDineen]

Chuck's job was so easy. Trade Risto at the deadline and then just run it back with Yeo. Write a bs letter like the Rags did and say we need to evaluate youth and players coming back from injury. Top 3 pick guaranteed.

 

[deadhead]

I find it very difficult to reconcile tossing aside 1OA picks as no doubters when 2OA in 2017 was Nolan Patrick and more than half the world thought they were wrong.

The rebuilding vs not stuff is religious zealotry and nothing I say has anything to do with it. The point is that the Devils acquired Defensemen who could have been long term solutions.

Outside of Hamilton, who is a 1D but not an elite one, most of the D-men they acquired are competent, but not the kind of players who make you a winner, rather, solid complements to a top forward group, led by 2 centers obtained with #1 picks. Which is why you accumulate excess assets, to fill holes - including trading #17 (Smith) for Marino.

The key in successful rebuilds is a little luck, but also a patient FO that will let a GM take 5-6 years to accumulate assets and accept losing. Sakic crashed a 112 point team down to 48 points over a three year period, most GMs would have been summarily canned for that, instead he was allowed to continue with his plan, and a year after hitting rock bottom they were in the playoffs. And they kept the coach of that 48 point team. But that team had MacKinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen as a core group. But it also had plenty of aging veterans, Comeau (30), Bourque (35), Iginlia (39), Beauchamin (36), Soderberg (31), Tyutin (33), Mitchell (32).

 

[flyersnorth]

Woof.

Proposal: - Flyers/Leafs Hart and Provorov for Marner, Engvall and Murray

Do both teams do it?

forums.hfboards.com

 

[tictactoe]

Will Fletcher get fired before game in Arizona Dec 11?