2022/23 Roster Thread III: Run It Back!

[Ghosts Beer]

btw, who’s the guy who bet me he’d leave the board if the flyers didn’t re-sign Yandle or Thompson?

Ready to enforce that?

 

[deadhead]

They've basically pissed away (3) 2nd rd picks. And may still recoup something for Risto down the road.
Not exactly a King's ransom, but they didn't even get a good playoff run out of them.
G, Voracek, Ghost, NAK, Patrick, Myers, et al. Who cares? None were part of a reload/rebuild.
Lindblom was a mistake. He's young enough to be a major contributor if he can get back to his pre-cancer self.

It all comes down to finding out if the current young players can live up to their hype or were overrated.
With Torts, they'll know their responsibilities and play in a well structured system.
So there won't be any excuses.

 

[TCTC]

I don't think making the playoffs will be the metric, rather, showing that the arrow is pointing up, that the young players, especially his draft picks and acquisitions (Tippett, TDA, York, Brink, Attard, Foerster) are contributing or on the verge of contributing.

If they finish with 85 points but are a tough team to play against in the second half, garner some picks at the TDL and some young players start to emerge, that will buy a year b/c it's reasonable to expect Torts to have this team on its way in 2023-24.

If it's another shitshow, Fletcher is gone by the New Year.

I guess that's reasonable, but at the same time that would be the worst possible finish for this team right now. Not making the playoffs, but also not getting a top 10 pick and keeping the status quo. I'm the last person to advocate for tanking, but I'm tired of mediocrity at this point.
I'm ok with giving Tortorella more than a year, but Fletcher's had more than enough time now to build a playoff team.

 

[Magua]

For someone who has been operating out of sheer survival instincts with his moves, Chuck Fletcher might have the worst survival instincts known to man.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If coaching can even potentially be as big of a bonus as it's currently being sold, the Vigneault hire, contract, and continued employment is a fireable offense by itself.

 

[deadhead]

If coaching can even potentially be as big of a bonus as it's currently being sold, the Vigneault hire, contract, and continued employment is a fireable offense by itself.

AV did do a fine job his first season, took a mess and had them at a 106 point pace and into the 2nd rd of the playoffs.
Problem is once thing started to fall apart, so did AV. Which made the contract really ugly.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

AV did do a fine job his first season, took a mess and had them at a 106 point pace and into the 2nd rd of the playoffs.
Problem is once thing started to fall apart, so did AV. Which made the contract really ugly.

I thought he did a perfectly acceptable job in year 1 through the regular season before panic set in against Montreal. Everything from Round 1, Game 1 forward was full-on Keystone Cops.

But that doesnt mean a 5 x 5 bet on a coach is the right play. I know we've had this discussion before and we agreed that his contract was probably part of the reason he came back last year. Creating those situations is just not where you want to be as a franchise.

 

[deadhead]

I thought he did a perfectly acceptable job in year 1 through the regular season before panic set in against Montreal. Everything from Round 1, Game 1 forward was full-on Keystone Cops.

But that doesnt mean a 5 x 5 bet on a coach is the right play. I know we've had this discussion before and we agreed that his contract was probably part of the reason he came back last year. Creating those situations is just not where you want to be as a franchise.

That I completely blame on Holmgren, after Hextall and Hakstol, he wanted a "name" HC and for Fletcher to give his HC whatever he thought he needed to win. And then they doubled down last summer b/c otherwise they would have had to eat $15M and call it a failure.

We knew AV was similar to Lavi in being a veteran's HC with a win now attitude, but I don't think anyone thought he'd bail the way he did.
Torts may go down in flames, but I don't see him quitting like that.

 

[DancingPanther]

Most people aren't saying the team won't be better than last year, most people are saying that being a marginal .500 team after ten years of retooling with a maxed cap and no high end prospects is still a failure.

I can't see the post you're quoting (boy was that a terrible few days) but I have been saying 60 points max for months now, and have dropped that to 55 points after the free agent "frenzy". People aren't understanding how bad this team is without Giroux/another top flight player to play with Couts.

 

[deadhead]

If Hayes and Couts are 100%, and Farabee recovers like Eichel and Johnson, they won't really miss G.
I mean G couldn't keep this team afloat, he's just not that kind of player anymore.

What will determine this team's fate is the extent to which Torts can get the young players back on track, and integrate the prospects. Don't underestimate Torts' ability to get the most out of a mediocre roster.

In TB he went from 69 to 93 to 106 points and a SC.
The crazy thing was while he was turning it around, they had traded their top picks in 1999, 2002 and 2003.
His high picks were Mara (#7), Lecavalier (#1), and Alexeev (#8).
The top players his first season, Brad Richards, Prospal, Andreychuk (38), Vinnie, St Louis, Klymer and Kubina.
The major additions, Corey Stillman, Fedetonko, Brad Lukowich,

First year in CBJ, had them on a 83 point pace, then 108, 97, 98.
2019-20 might have been his best job there, after losing Panarin, Duchene, Bob, et al, got them to 81 points in 70 games (95 point pace).
That was not a talented team, and it was beset with injuries:
Forwards: Bjorkstrand, Foligno, Dubois, Nyquist, Jenner, Atkinson (44g), Weenberg, Gerbe (30g), Anderson (26g), Texier (36g), Stenlund (32g), Milano (46g), Bernstrom (56g), Robinson (50g), R Nash, Lilja (37g)
Defense: Jones, Werenski, Savard, Gavrikov, Murray (27g), Nutivaara, Kukan (33g), Peeke (22g)
Goalies: Korpisalo, Merzlikins

 

[Striiker]

I can't see the post you're quoting (boy was that a terrible few days) but I have been saying 60 points max for months now, and have dropped that to 55 points after the free agent "frenzy". People aren't understanding how bad this team is without Giroux/another top flight player to play with Couts.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this team outscores Giroux next year.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I can't see the post you're quoting (boy was that a terrible few days) but I have been saying 60 points max for months now, and have dropped that to 55 points after the free agent "frenzy". People aren't understanding how bad this team is without Giroux/another top flight player to play with Couts.

van Reimsdyk - Couturier - Konecny
Laughton - Hayes - Atkinson
Cates - Frost - Tippett
Deslauries - Brown - MacEwen

Provorov - DeAngelo
Sanheim - Ristolainen
York - Braun

Hart
Sandstrom

That could be their opening night roster.

 

[bennysflyers16]

It'll be interesting to see if anyone on this team outscores Giroux next year.

Not really. A 100% Couts is the only shot and even that prob won’t happen.

Sens are gonna score

van Reimsdyk - Couturier - Konecny
Laughton - Hayes - Atkinson
Cates - Frost - Tippett
Deslauries - Brown - MacEwen

Provorov - DeAngelo
Sanheim - Ristolainen
York - Braun

Hart
Sandstrom

That could be their opening night roster.

Top line LW
Right side D
4 th line.

Holy macaroni.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'm prefacing this yet again because I want to cut off some of the obvious responses -- Tortorella > Vigneault.

I don't think it's possible to appreciate how non-functional later Torts' CBJ teams were offensively unless you spend some time researching it. When the Atkinson trade happened, I remember the deeper I dug, the more I became convinced no one short of high-end NHL talent had a prayer of doing anything in that system as constructed.

I'll pull some quotes from myself at the time of the trade:

• Really the biggest hope to me is how non-functional CBJ's offense was from almost every angle. Usually teams who eschew Shots from the point are trying to make up for it by creating HD chances (think: Toronto). Columbus was 32nd in Shots from the point AND 29th in High Danger passes. The gap between Columbus and Arizona (average) in High Danger passes was functionally equivalent to the difference between Arizona and Vegas.

• With that being said, he was horrendous as a playmaker last year. The dropoff was so ridiculously over the top that it makes me think there was more to it than we know. For some scope, he had a functionally equivalent High Danger Passes/60 to Ryan Reaves at 5v5 in 20-21. That just can't be right.

If it was cause for some optimism on Atkinson (and it was), it's got to be some cause for pessimism now. That doesn't mean it will happen by definition. It's just concerning in a familiar way.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Braun was fine was last year given his role/what you can expect from his skill set. But he’s going to turn 36 in season. We saw it with Yandle at simile age last year. He was fine the previous season with Florida given his role & everything there too. But the bottom can completely fell out which can happen when you’re signing players at that age.

 

[bauer]

van Reimsdyk - Couturier - Konecny
Laughton - Hayes - Atkinson
Cates - Frost - Tippett
Deslauries - Brown - MacEwen

Provorov - DeAngelo
Sanheim - Ristolainen
York - Braun

Hart
Sandstrom

That could be their opening night roster.

that has to be one of the worst lineups in the east. and just think, that was assembled by a GM who wants to win now.

 

[deadhead]

I'm prefacing this yet again because I want to cut off some of the obvious responses -- Tortorella > Vigneault.

I don't think it's possible to appreciate how non-functional later Torts' CBJ teams were offensively unless you spend some time researching it. When the Atkinson trade happened, I remember the deeper I dug, the more I became convinced no one short of high-end NHL talent had a prayer of doing anything in that system as constructed.

I'll pull some quotes from myself at the time of the trade:

If it was cause for some optimism on Atkinson (and it was), it's got to be some cause for pessimism now. That doesn't mean it will happen by definition. It's just concerning in a familiar way.

Other than Panarin, did CBJ have anyone who was a good playmaker/passer?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

that has to be one of the worst lineups in the east. and just think, that was assembled by a GM who wants to win now.

They could insert guys like Laczynski & Allison too but they can both pass through waivers & coming off injuries perhaps they could start the year down in the AHL.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Other than Panarin, did CBJ have anyone who was a good playmaker/passer?

I think we might just have different definitions of good!

Did they have anyone I would describe as a good passer? Yes -- Bjorkstrand, Roslovic, Domi, Atkinson, Werenski, and Jones. PLD before the Laine trade. Gustav Nyquist is a solid playmaker, although he missed 20-21. Wennberg was a good playmaker despite being good at almost nothing else.

 

[Striiker]

van Reimsdyk - Couturier - Konecny
Laughton - Hayes - Atkinson
Cates - Frost - Tippett
Deslauries - Brown - MacEwen

Provorov - DeAngelo
Sanheim - Ristolainen
York - Braun

Hart
Sandstrom

That could be their opening night roster.

Sanheim is the lowest paid player in that top 4

 

[VladDrag]

Not really. A 100% Couts is the only shot and even that prob won’t happen.

Sens are gonna score



Top line LW
Right side D
4 th line.

Holy macaroni.

the Couts/Giroux pairing was mutually beneficial.

Even with a 100% Couts, I don’t think he’s going to produce as many 5v5 points as he did with Giroux as his winger from 17-20ish. Those two just thought the game at a different level, and I don’t know if there’s another guy on the team tha can compliment Couts like G did.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I guess I should also say if he thinks he needs a Panarin to have a functional offense, I've got some very bad news for Johnathan.

 

[Adam Warlock]

Didn’t he go to California because he wanted to play with his brother? Only reason he left NJ?

Its possible hed choose ANA over them but the Flyers were reported to be serious contenders for him but clarke wanted size and depth instead. Sound farmiliar?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

the Couts/Giroux pairing was mutually beneficial.

Even with a 100% Couts, I don’t think he’s going to produce as many 5v5 points as he did with Giroux as his winger from 17-20ish. Those two just thought the game at a different level, and I don’t know if there’s another guy on the team tha can compliment Couts like G did.

Couturier’s obviously a higher end play driver. So he does move the needle offensively for himself & others off that but I feel like his offensive skillset otherwise is more complimentary. So that’s where him & Giroux meshed well. Giroux obviously being the better all around offensive player of two.

Pretty tough ask for him to be coming off injury & be that guy completely driving a line now with potentially Laughton/JvR & I’d imagine Konecny.

 

[Striiker]

the Couts/Giroux pairing was mutually beneficial.

Even with a 100% Couts, I don’t think he’s going to produce as many 5v5 points as he did with Giroux as his winger from 17-20ish. Those two just thought the game at a different level, and I don’t know if there’s another guy on the team tha can compliment Couts like G did.

Yeah, both have elite hockey IQ, Giroux has more skill, Couturier has more size. It was a great match for both of them.

Nobody left on this team even comes close to Giroux's skill or smarts. TK is probably the next most skilled, but, no offense to him, he's just not the same level of player.