2022/23 Roster Thread III: Run It Back!

[Fire Tortorella]

Seriously, forget what you think of Zamula or Attard or Frost. Who's the last Flyer who significantly improved at LHV?

In some orgs, that might not be as important of a question. But they slow roll their prospects with the idea that they will improve there. That's a design choice that's predicated on competence.

Hodgson

 

[bennysflyers16]

York isn’t playing over Seeler and Braun as a regular

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Hodgson

I genuinely think this is a better answer than the most likely suspect someone is going to give me. Being the first to try out those potential AAAA guys at least has some value.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Seriously, forget what you think of Zamula or Attard or Frost. Who's the last Flyer who significantly improved at LHV?

In some orgs, that might not be as important of a question. But they slow roll their prospects with the idea that they will improve there. That's a design choice that's predicated on competence.

I remember Ottawa a few years ago basically gave Norris, Batherson, Formenton, etc. the keys to their AHL team essentially right off the bat coming out of juniors/college. I think as an AHL team they were like middling standings wise but those guys were towards the top of the league scoring board. If for nothing else they didn’t pigeon hole these guys into projected lesser roles right off the bat. A guy like Norris probably overshot his prospect profile & became more of a scorer than expected in the AHL & NHL.

 

[Striiker]

How the hell is a prospect going to improve if you don't haze them and force them to avoid their strengths?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Like a guy with Norris’ prospect profile the Flyers would have definitely had him playing in the middle of the lineup in the AHL with focus on defense trying to groom him for a bottom six defensive/PK role in the NHL.

The Flyers shoot for a low bar & work themselves down from there instead of aiming higher & doing so. The reality is that most guys that occupy those smaller roles in the NHL or at least the good ones were pretty good offensive players at lower levels who eventually got to that point. The Flyers draft & develop at a low point with their prospects.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not telling you what to think at all, but why should I have any confidence they will healthy scratch Braun?

Because Torts is an equal opportunity "scratcher."
When you look at CBJ, he benched veterans, rookies and in between.

It's quite possible that he benches Risto if he keeps chasing hits and gets out of position, Braun if he shows his age, TDA if he ignores his defensive responsibilities or Provorov if he goes prima donna when he's taken off the PP (but not sure he's gonna do that with Rocky in the building!).

It'll be fun to watch this season.

 

[deadhead]

It's not pigeon holing a player to ask an offense first guy who's been coddled in the CHL to play defense. It's not a matter of stifling your offense, it's a matter of not gliding when you don't have the puck, lollygagging instead of skating as hard on the back check as you did on the rush, and knowing your assignments so you're not out of position.

Torts didn't ask Panarin to be a Selke candidate, but Panarin was also a guy who never shied away from a board battle.

A player who won't do that should be traded ASAP before the league realizes he's an uncoachable one trick pony.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Because Torts is an equal opportunity "scratcher."
When you look at CBJ, he benched veterans, rookies and in between.

It's quite possible that he benches Risto if he keeps chasing hits and gets out of position, Braun if he shows his age, TDA if he ignores his defensive responsibilities or Provorov if he goes prima donna when he's taken off the PP (but not sure he's gonna do that with Rocky in the building!).

It'll be fun to watch this season.

If they healthy scratch a guy they owe $25MM for reasons that are related to play, please remind me of this conversation. You’ll have earned the victory lap.

 

[deadhead]

Seriously, forget what you think of Zamula or Attard or Frost. Who's the last Flyer who significantly improved at LHV?

In some orgs, that might not be as important of a question. But they slow roll their prospects with the idea that they will improve there. That's a design choice that's predicated on competence.

Under Gordon? That's a good question. Why he was kept around . . .

Last season I think most of the LHV players who came up were pretty fundamentally sound, the problem with guys like Willman is he couldn't finish a play to save his life, but Zamula looked solid, Hogberg didn't look out of place, Hodgson of course, but it's a small, one year sample. York wasn't hurt by his AHL visit. And the Phantoms looked more organized, though with injuries they were playing a half dozen ECHL players by the end of the season

If they healthy scratch a guy they owe $25MM for reasons that are related to play, please remind me of this conversation. You’ll have earned it.

He did it to Seth Jones after they traded Johansen for him. He's done it to Atkinson in CBJ, among others.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Under Gordon? That's a good question. Why he was kept around . . .

Last season I think most of the LHV players who came up were pretty fundamentally sound, the problem with guys like Willman is he couldn't finish a play to save his life, but Zamula looked solid, Hogberg didn't look out of place, Hodgson of course, but it's a small, one year sample. York wasn't hurt by his AHL visit. And the Phantoms looked more organized, though with injuries they were playing a half dozen ECHL players by the end of the season


He did it to Seth Jones after they traded Johansen for him. He's done it to Atkinson in CBJ, among others.

Wait, when was Jones a healthy scratch? Do you mean Dubinsky or have I just blocked this out of my mind?

 

[Tripod]

If they healthy scratch a guy they owe $25MM for reasons that are related to play, please remind me of this conversation. You’ll have earned the victory lap.

I will be more impressed if he benches a shitbab tryhard like Deslauriers for being a shitbag.

 

[Striiker]

Like a guy with Norris’ prospect profile the Flyers would have definitely had him playing in the middle of the lineup in the AHL with focus on defense trying to groom him for a bottom six defensive/PK role in the NHL.

The Flyers shoot for a low bar & work themselves down from there instead of aiming higher & doing so. The reality is that most guys that occupy those smaller roles in the NHL or at least the good ones were pretty good offensive players at lower levels who eventually got to that point. The Flyers draft & develop at a low point with their prospects.

Look at how this team has handled Frost. All they've done is screw with him and have their puppet Shill Meltzer bitch about him constantly.

They whine that he needs to focus on defense and healthy scratch him for no reason, then they whine that he needs to stop playing safe and worrying about getting scratched, then they say he needs to score more while getting used as the 11th forward.

He's been set up to fail since the start.

 

[TheKingPin]

It seems pretty likely that they are buying into injuries and coaching as the main reason they were bad. That shouldn’t matter much and they could be out of the playoffs by Thanksgiving again resulting in Fletcher being fired.

 

[ajgoal]

Look at how this team has handled Frost. All they've done is screw with him and have their puppet Shill Meltzer bitch about him constantly.

They whine that he needs to focus on defense and healthy scratch him for no reason, then they whine that he needs to stop playing safe and worrying about getting scratched, then they say he needs to score more while getting used as the 11th forward.

He's been set up to fail since the start.

Charlie mentioned something about Attard on the BSH podcast. How Attard is aggressive defensively, jumps up offensively. Said he's a weird player without a comparable NHL player. So he asked one of the dev coaches who are they having him watch tape of, and was told essentially, "Cernak in the defensive zone." Basically, they said they wanted Attard to take Cernak's defensive style and make it his own, dial his offense way down. Then when he has the defense down, they'll start adding some of the offense back.

I've been checked out on the prospects for a while, so I don't know how accurate his read on Attard is, but Charlie was arguing that it was a bad process since their defensive styles are too different, and your undermining anything he does well to try to be something else.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Charlie mentioned something about Attard on the BSH podcast. How Attard is aggressive defensively, jumps up offensively. Said he's a weird player without a comparable NHL player. So he asked one of the dev coaches who are they having him watch tape of, and was told essentially, "Cernak in the defensive zone." Basically, they said they wanted Attard to take Cernak's defensive style and make it his own, dial his offense way down. Then when he has the defense down, they'll start adding some of the offense back.

I've been checked out on the prospects for a while, so I don't know how accurate his read on Attard is, but Charlie was arguing that it was a bad process since their defensive styles are too different, and your undermining anything he does well to try to be something else.

The bolded is a defining factor of the org at this point. They develop into molds.

 

[Striiker]

Charlie mentioned something about Attard on the BSH podcast. How Attard is aggressive defensively, jumps up offensively. Said he's a weird player without a comparable NHL player. So he asked one of the dev coaches who are they having him watch tape of, and was told essentially, "Cernak in the defensive zone." Basically, they said they wanted Attard to take Cernak's defensive style and make it his own, dial his offense way down. Then when he has the defense down, they'll start adding some of the offense back.

I've been checked out on the prospects for a while, so I don't know how accurate his read on Attard is, but Charlie was arguing that it was a bad process since their defensive styles are too different, and your undermining anything he does well to try to be something else.

What the hell is it with these dinosaur f***s who think defense is the most important thing in the sport and offense is an afterthought?

 

[Striiker]

It seems pretty likely that they are buying into injuries and coaching as the main reason they were bad. That shouldn’t matter much and they could be out of the playoffs by Thanksgiving again resulting in Fletcher being fired.

I love it. Chucks excuses for why the team sucked are:

-Injuries (unavoidable and every team deals with them, shut up Chuck)

-The players/culture (who Chuck assembled)

-The coaching (who Chuck hired)

 

[deadhead]

The bolded is a defining factor of the org at this point. They develop into molds.

i don't buy that. Problem with a lot of players is the roles they play at lower levels doesn't prepare them for the NHL, where they're not going to be a star - it's one thing to let Makar free lance (uber talent) and I notice he's defensively responsible for someone who is always in attack mode. It's another to let a good but not great offensive player ignore their defensive responsibilities.

Attard has offensive talents, but he's not the kind of D-man who can outskate his mistakes. You can give those guys a bit more leeway as they learn. Attard was getting burned left and right his first couple weeks, then adjusted his game. I think they want him to master defensive basics (do we need another Risto?) then learn when to take chances on offense.

We see this all the time in the NBA, college kids come out and have all the offensive moves, but not a clue about playing defense, and at the pro level get hung out to dry - and thus benched until they learn to at least not be a turnstile. Same with NHL defensemen, you have to be good enough on defense, and know when to take chances on offense - unless you're Carlsson or some other great offensive talent who can outscore his mistakes. And even OEL never scored enough to stop being a liability.

 

[freakydallas13]

I’m not saying he’s some shoe in or anything. But the Flyers already put Zamula in a position of weakness given they think his weight is a perceived flaw to the point it overshadows everything else.

I never seen an organization that loves a low upside play like them. They love making those type of bets.

Never forgot they actively coached any offense Morin had out of his game. (Yes, Morin amounted to nothing anyways, just cutting off that retort before someone makes it. Doesn't mean their development process wasn't junk though)

 

[freakydallas13]

Seriously, forget what you think of Zamula or Attard or Frost. Who's the last Flyer who significantly improved at LHV?

In some orgs, that might not be as important of a question. But they slow roll their prospects with the idea that they will improve there. That's a design choice that's predicated on competence.

Who was the last drafted player that surpassed expectations? Farabee maybe, but he's been very inconsistent so far.

Probably Sanheim, and before that.......Couts?

Lindblom did for a while, but I guess the Flyers decided they don't need him after the buy out. A real success story there.

 

[deadhead]

Who was the last drafted player that surpassed expectations? Farabee maybe, but he's been very inconsistent so far.

Probably Sanheim, and before that.......Couts?

Lindblom did for a while, but I guess the Flyers decided they don't need him after the buy out. A real success story there.

TK, #24 pick.
Farabee #14 pick.
Hart of course.
Allison would if he could stay healthy.
N Cates will.
Zamula just by getting a cup of coffee.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

btw, who’s the guy who bet me he’d leave the board if the flyers didn’t re-sign Yandle or Thompson?

Ready to enforce that?

yup....

the sad part is even if hes not resigned... what am i losing by steppin away from this shitshow Org ?

nothing really...hahaaa

 

[Schwarbomb]

Never forgot they actively coached any offense Morin had out of his game. (Yes, Morin amounted to nothing anyways, just cutting off that retort before someone makes it. Doesn't mean their development process wasn't junk though)

IIRC Couturier had to ask to be given a chance at a bigger, top line role prior to the '17-'18 season. Aiming low has been an organizational philosophy for a while with young players.

 

[The Rage Kage]

I'll believe they have a shot in hell of being relevant the second they get serious about LHV. No one is developing there. At some point, it can't be that this many players just stop improving.

Yeah the Flyers have a serious problem with prospect development. It was league consensus that they had one of the better prospect pools, but now they have nothong to show for it. Now if every other prospect doesnt live up to their potential thats just the way it goes, you cant nail every pick. But when nearly every single (well regarded) prospect that goes through this organization fails to live up to their potential it is obviously a more systemic issue. Like, they finally stopped drafting to fill roles under Hextall, but they still try to coach the players that they drafted into those roles anyways.