2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net

[FLYguy3911]

Fenwick Close is the next market inefficiency. Stop with the name calling.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Eh, he was accused of pushing the Flyers agenda two years ago when he said Pitlick could be useful, and Pitlick was useful. And he had no role with the Flyers when he said Grossman was still useful when the guy was clearly shot. It would be better if people debated the opinions and gave reasons why they agree or disagree instead of just resorting to name calling.

I do think he tows the company line harder now that he has ties, but yeah; he was perfectly capable of some bad takes before his current gig, too.

If my memory is working, though, the Grossmann take was kind of a weird outlier for him at the time. Now that kind of thing is normal.

 

[Curufinwe]

Someone cut my head off. I do not want my head any longer.

NHL Trade Talk: Flyers keeping an eye on Adam Larsson negotiations in Edmonton

I thought it exploded Scanners-style when NJ got Subban in 2019. Good thing it grew back.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

how many players are here since the 2010 push ?

maybe 3 ?

how is that the same core exactly ?


lol...

 

[CapnZin]

Don't disagree, but it really depends on what were giving up and what he signs for. If its a Farabee then your bang on.. If its Myers and Patrick/Frost + then that's another story.. I think we're all a little freaked out right now because of the rumours. If the price is too high I'm with you to re assess and fill voids through smaller trades and FA. Seems like the org is panicking when they really shouldn't be. We have multiple needs one big move isn't going to be the end multiple moves need to be made over time to get us a Cup contender

It can’t be Myers and Patrick or Frost as the main piece. The numbers don’t work. Plus, it seems as if CBJ is after more. If that’s the case then I go back to my impact argument where we need to shed money of people who have had greater impacts while on the ice to compile 2 players over semi-max contracts taking up around 20% of the cap. Take the names out of it and leave the sentiment.
I just don’t agree with doing so makes this a better team. If it does then I will gladly eat my words. I want the team to succeed.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

That piece gets published on the official Flyers website. Speaks volumes.

But I want to take this post to emphasize that every time Meltzer uses an “advanced stat” — and I mean rudimentary ones — it sounds like a grandma using slang. “Oh, I’m doing just Gucci, grandson! Me and the squad about to play some mahjong.” Fenwick close? The man is lost.



Do you know what rhymes with “lens refraction”?

Ristolainen.

Sort of. Listen, it’s a slant rhyme, who cares.

 

[CapnZin]

Touching on your last sentence, that exactly is Fletcher trying to do? What vision or plan is he building to? It's hard to detect.

The rumored pursuit of Jones who simply isn't a good stylistic fit with the coaches he's clearly married himself to is mystifying. There are some huge disconnects in this organization. On the self-evaluation front and league evaluation front.

I think, as with all GMs, he’s trying to build a cup contending team, but takes a major backseat in player evaluations. Flahr and AV are the major mouths in the we want this market. That’s just my own opinion.
I think he wants to build a team that speaks to AV. The players that faltered were ones that didn’t have seniority (an AV kink) or are displaced due to the systematic crusade; Ghost and Farabee seemed to be the worst of it.

Ghost is easy to replace and is less detrimental to the org in terms of losing than AV in Fletchers mind and probably on paper as well. Farabee had to do extra to get the same amount of treatment and was still benched. He can dangle them all he wants. I’d think he’s dumb to get rid of Farabee and TK, but that’s just me.
Flahr seems to be a good hockey mind, but he doesn’t manage the team or it’s players. I also think his insight may get placed behind AV in terms of player evaluation. Flahr May only be here for the prospects that marinate in the AHL.

I believe that Fletcher believes this team is 3 major moves from the cup which scares me because those are the moves that go down, rather than up. The whole Jones thing reeks of desperation. Make the smart move, not the big one. If the big one works then I’ll shut up, but those are the moves that can make the org go down in a day.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

that is me trying to figure out how to load a gif into HFboards...


@Captain Dave Poulin

 

[Curufinwe]

I do think he tows the company line harder now that he has ties, but yeah; he was perfectly capable of some bad takes before his current gig, too.

If my memory is working, though, the Grossmann take was kind of a weird outlier for him at the time. Now that kind of thing is normal.

Magua just recently posted a screenshot of him pumping Hagg over Ghost in 2014. There’s definitely a long standing pattern.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

that is me trying to figure out how to load a gif into HFboards...


@Captain Dave Poulin

Yeah, you are extremely terrible.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think, as with all GMs, he’s trying to build a cup contending team, but takes a major backseat in player evaluations. Flahr and AV are the major mouths in the we want this market. That’s just my own opinion.
I think he wants to build a team that speaks to AV. The players that faltered were ones that didn’t have seniority (an AV kink) or are displaced due to the systematic crusade; Ghost and Farabee seemed to be the worst of it.

Ghost is easy to replace and is less detrimental to the org in terms of losing than AV in Fletchers mind and probably on paper as well. Farabee had to do extra to get the same amount of treatment and was still benched. He can dangle them all he wants. I’d think he’s dumb to get rid of Farabee and TK, but that’s just me.
Flahr seems to be a good hockey mind, but he doesn’t manage the team or it’s players. I also think his insight may get placed behind AV in terms of player evaluation. Flahr May only be here for the prospects that marinate in the AHL.

I believe that Fletcher believes this team is 3 major moves from the cup which scares me because those are the moves that go down, rather than up. The whole Jones thing reeks of desperation. Make the smart move, not the big one. If the big one works then I’ll shut up, but those are the moves that can make the org go down in a day.

Well there is an aspect of Ghost that is not going to be easy to replace and which AV's system really needs: his outlet passing. Ghost is the best at it. The difference between how well the team manages to get up ice when Ghost is in vs not is more drastic than when Hakstol was here. Ghost will move up and laterally to open passing lanes and hit them, while Braun and Hagg just..can't. Provorov lives by carrying the puck and otherwise he kind of just hovers in a small area before forcing a pass, and Sanheim is decent but not Ghost's level, he has the skill but doesn't assert it as regularly. As the team presently plays they've made themselves more needy for Ghost's passing than they've ever been. I strongly doubt they realize it. They're more likely to let him go or move him and realize months later that maybe they took him for granted. We ought to be adding another passer of that level, not removing as we add. And that is one aspect of Jones that intrigues me, but I don't know and can't guess how well he'll manage if here. Or if he'll see the coverage between him and his stretched out options and get the dump fever.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This is what you and others who share your vision for the Flyers fail to realize. They have won one playoff series in nine years. They have had multiple coaches over that period of time, two GM's and yet more or less the same core group of players. The path they are currently on and have been on hasn't worked. The only time it did work albeit briefly was in large part due to the additions of Niskanen and Hayes, which were made by Fletcher. So this idea that Fletcher is a horrible GM and will screw everything up is unfounded. His grade as the Flyers GM is still incomplete, but the one offseason where he had the resources to make moves led to the team's most successful season in nearly a decade.

Either way, the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. They literally have nothing to lose by making dramatic changes. I already know what your answer will be, and that is that it could get worse. I would tell you that it doesn't get worse than being stuck in a hockey purgatory of mediocrity. With big changes they will more than likely either significantly improve or it will be a massive failure which could lead to multiple high picks and an opportunity to really blow things up and do a proper rebuild. Making the playoffs one year and losing in the first round, picking in the late teens, or just missing the playoffs and picking 11-15 is no man's land.

Also, and for the record, nobody is suggesting to trade every young player, prospect, and draft pick the organization has. It's just that no team in the modern era has won a cup with a roster of only young home grown talent. Even Pittsburgh who had multiple top picks and two generational talents and HOF goalie had to make some trades and free agent signings to help push them over the top to win cups. There is a such thing as balance and that's all we are asking for. Take some of the young talent and picks and turn them into players that upgrade the team right now.

Keep in mind that most of us grew up as Flyers fans where this was a premier organization, team, and destination for great players. The last decade has been the antithesis of that. The team hasn't been good, it's been a boring on ice product, and the offseasons are boring since this is no longer a premier destination. Quite honestly, it's sad to see and we just want to see the team and organization get good again. Continuing on the same path the team is currently on will only bring more of the same disappoint and lack of success we have been experiencing as fans.

Lastly, whether they end up getting the right players or not and it works out, it's quite obvious to everyone what this team needs to do. They have a lot of depth at wing, a defense that needs a top pairing guy and possibly another top four guy, a better goalie to play in tandem with Hart, and a 3C. Making all of that happen in one offseason will be extremely difficult, but they have to try. Wasn't it the great Wayne Gretzky who said you missed 100 percent of the shots you don't take. This organization needs to start taking shots and making an attempt to fix something that is obviously broken. How anyone who follows this team doesn't realize all of this is a mystery to me. Either way, is this a good enough ''intelligent conversation'' for you homie.

Completely agree.

I've laughed the whole off-season. This board went from blasting Chuck in the regular season for not making moves, to now blasting him for moves he hasn't even made. "I want moves! But not like this! Not that involve anyone with trade value!"

 

[Beef Invictus]

Completely agree.

I've laughed the whole off-season. This board went from blasting Chuck in the regular season for not making moves, to now blasting him for moves he hasn't even made. "I want moves! But not like this! Not that involve anyone with trade value!"

Are you bashing people for wanting good moves rather than inaction and bad moves?

 

[Rebels57]

I thought it exploded Scanners-style when NJ got Subban in 2019. Good thing it grew back.

I wasn't THAT annoyed by that move. I was over it then glad it wasnt us once I had some time to stew on it before the season even started lol

 

[Stizzle]

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you disparaging Fenwick.

Fenwick Close is the next market inefficiency. Stop with the name calling.

Let's cancel culture @Magua for his vicious, slanderous attack on Fenwick!

 

[Magua]

Let's cancel culture @Magua for his vicious, slanderous attack on Fenwick!

Glenn Close > Fenwick Close

 

[renberg]

Flahr seems to be a good hockey mind, but he doesn’t manage the team or it’s players. I also think his insight may get placed behind AV in terms of player evaluation. Flahr May only be here for the prospects that marinate in the AHL.

I am afraid that what you say here regarding AV is true. In fact, my belief is that AV is able to brow beat Fletcher into getting him to do virtually anything that he wants. The scariest moment for any organization is when a person at the top is on thin ice and starts to make decisions that have long term repercussions. They make those decisions for their benefit not the organization. Fletcher needs to be hip to this and not allow AV to drag him down the chute along with him.
Sorry but I think that AV is cooked in this town whether he knows it or not. If the roster remains pretty much the same, these guys aren't going to go out and lay it on the line for AV after he has thrown so many of them under the bus one way or another. If the roster undergoes significant changes, it will take time for it to gel. Either way the opening of the season will be a rough one. If the Flyers don't open well, coming off of this last season, their ticket sales and other sources of revenue will be down. The only way to save the season and recoup revenue will be to ditch the coach and his staff. Hopefully there will be enough talent remaining for the new coach to rescue the season and possibly sneak into the POs.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Yeah, you are extremely terrible.

i like the hate...

 

[CapnZin]

Well there is an aspect of Ghost that is not going to be easy to replace and which AV's system really needs: his outlet passing. Ghost is the best at it. The difference between how well the team manages to get up ice when Ghost is in vs not is more drastic than when Hakstol was here. Ghost will move up and laterally to open passing lanes and hit them, while Braun and Hagg just..can't. Provorov lives by carrying the puck and otherwise he kind of just hovers in a small area before forcing a pass, and Sanheim is decent but not Ghost's level, he has the skill but doesn't assert it as regularly. As the team presently plays they've made themselves more needy for Ghost's passing than they've ever been. I strongly doubt they realize it. They're more likely to let him go or move him and realize months later that maybe they took him for granted. We ought to be adding another passer of that level, not removing as we add. And that is one aspect of Jones that intrigues me, but I don't know and can't guess how well he'll manage if here. Or if he'll see the coverage between him and his stretched out options and get the dump fever.

I think they believe they’re getting that with Jones lol… if they trade for him, but in a premium way that Ghost wasn’t able to do. That’s not a player evaluation, but a paper move where they think they’ve made out like bandits.

Jones isn’t a break out passing Dman. He’s not very good an controller exits. He may be marginal at best. Jones needs a puck mover that can play defense so he can make the moves in the offensive zone. I think they think they have that in Provorov, so the first pair is something to swing for the moon.

Ghost is likely a lost cause in their eyes

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think they believe they’re getting that with Jones lol… if they trade for him, but in a premium way that Ghost wasn’t able to do. That’s not a player evaluation, but a paper move where they think they’ve made out like bandits.

Jones isn’t a break out passing Dman. He’s not very good an controller exits. He may be marginal at best. Jones needs a puck mover that can play defense so he can make the moves in the offensive zone. I think they think they have that in Provorov, so the first pair is something to swing for the moon.

Ghost is likely a lost cause in their eyes

All management must burn

 

[Beef Invictus]

I am afraid that what you say here regarding AV is true. In fact, my belief is that AV is able to brow beat Fletcher into getting him to do virtually anything that he wants. The scariest moment for any organization is when a person at the top is on thin ice and starts to make decisions that have long term repercussions. They make those decisions for their benefit not the organization. Fletcher needs to be hip to this and not allow AV to drag him down the chute along with him.
Sorry but I think that AV is cooked in this town whether he knows it or not. If the roster remains pretty much the same, these guys aren't going to go out and lay it on the line for AV after he has thrown so many of them under the bus one way or another. If the roster undergoes significant changes, it will take time for it to gel. Either way the opening of the season will be a rough one. If the Flyers don't open well, coming off of this last season, their ticket sales and other sources of revenue will be down. The only way to save the season and recoup revenue will be to ditch the coach and his staff. Hopefully there will be enough talent remaining for the new coach to rescue the season and possibly sneak into the POs.

If it ends up playing out this way then Fletcher should immediately be in the hot seat as well, considering his refusal to make any changes to the staff.

I'm sure in the end the coaches will do another absoutely trash job but as is tradition, they will get bailed out by Giroux and Couturier.

 

[Magua]

Jones needs a puck mover that can play defense so he can make the moves in the offensive zone. I think they think they have that in Provorov, so the first pair is something to swing for the moon.

It’s possible. I’d argue Provorov’s biggest need is just someone better offensively, with competency elsewhere, specifically as a playmaker. Jones’ playmaking is not what I’d specifically label a strength. He’s not without ability, but in recent years, he’s been increasingly settling for low danger shots. Ironically, Provorov needs a Werenski-type.

But if management’s viewpoint is Provorov needs Jones — and vice versa — and makes a soon to be $16 mil pairing, they’ve left reality far far behind. I can’t get over this point in finding a “top pair RD.” That’s not how any of this works with a salary cap!

 

[deadhead]

Meh, I thought Meltzer was pretty on target.

Provorov wasn't awful, he just didn't live up to expectations. If he was made available, GMs would be lining up around the block. He's probably plateaud, he can play better than last year, but isn't physical enough to dominate defensively nor skilled enough to be elite on offense. A solid top 4 guy who may never take it to the next level.

Sanheim had a better metrics season than on ice, he still hasn't learned to finish which is reflected in his middle of the pack pp/60 the last two seasons. So his glaring errors are more damaging b/c he doesn't score enough to compensate.

Among D-men with 1500+ ES minutes (135 players):
Last two seasons combined, Gus 1.04 pp/60, Myers 1.02, Sanheim 0.96 (67th), Provorov 0.87 (82nd), Braun 0.81
Potential acquisitions: Hamilton 1.60, Martinez 1.09, Jones 1.04, Ristolainen 0.95, Larsson 0.52, Savard 0.38

Sanheim is 60th in xGF/60 and HDCF/60, so he's not creating for his teammates, either.

 

[Bigkarl]

Completely agree.

I've laughed the whole off-season. This board went from blasting Chuck in the regular season for not making moves, to now blasting him for moves he hasn't even made. "I want moves! But not like this! Not that involve anyone with trade value!"

It’s almost like board members want him to make moves that make the team better, and avoid moves that make the team worse. I know, totally bonkers, right???

 

[flyerslducks]

idk why we have to consistently compare provorov and sanheim lol. They are both solid young defenders on this team and will be for years. They both need better d partners and then this team will be better off for it. Find those partners --- not a temporary one as well. Get guys that they can grow their game with...

Hopefully myers can grow into one of those partners and maybe even york. Also, I hope york/ghost can just walk away with pp1 duties so we dont have to constantly talk about provorov/sanheim being on it.