TB87
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
- May 30, 2018
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2021 Roster Thread XIX - Who's In Net
- Thread starter Beef Invictus
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Someone said something not nice about Sanheim......this was a bang on assessment. Travis should be kept because he will continue to develop and he could become a top pairing Dman (that's what the fans, Meltzer and the team want) but he's not there yet. All those areas listed above are what he needs to improve on.... Before you jump on the Provy train.....he needs to improve as well
. Their young and developing players both are not finished products yet (should be by end of this season tbh).
The Madrigal
Registered User
This is what you and others who share your vision for the Flyers fail to realize. They have won one playoff series in nine years. They have had multiple coaches over that period of time, two GM's and yet more or less the same core group of players. The path they are currently on and have been on hasn't worked. The only time it did work albeit briefly was in large part due to the additions of Niskanen and Hayes, which were made by Fletcher. So this idea that Fletcher is a horrible GM and will screw everything up is unfounded. His grade as the Flyers GM is still incomplete, but the one offseason where he had the resources to make moves led to the team's most successful season in nearly a decade.
Either way, the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. They literally have nothing to lose by making dramatic changes. I already know what your answer will be, and that is that it could get worse. I would tell you that it doesn't get worse than being stuck in a hockey purgatory of mediocrity. With big changes they will more than likely either significantly improve or it will be a massive failure which could lead to multiple high picks and an opportunity to really blow things up and do a proper rebuild. Making the playoffs one year and losing in the first round, picking in the late teens, or just missing the playoffs and picking 11-15 is no man's land.
Also, and for the record, nobody is suggesting to trade every young player, prospect, and draft pick the organization has. It's just that no team in the modern era has won a cup with a roster of only young home grown talent. Even Pittsburgh who had multiple top picks and two generational talents and HOF goalie had to make some trades and free agent signings to help push them over the top to win cups. There is a such thing as balance and that's all we are asking for. Take some of the young talent and picks and turn them into players that upgrade the team right now.
Keep in mind that most of us grew up as Flyers fans where this was a premier organization, team, and destination for great players. The last decade has been the antithesis of that. The team hasn't been good, it's been a boring on ice product, and the offseasons are boring since this is no longer a premier destination. Quite honestly, it's sad to see and we just want to see the team and organization get good again. Continuing on the same path the team is currently on will only bring more of the same disappoint and lack of success we have been experiencing as fans.
Lastly, whether they end up getting the right players or not and it works out, it's quite obvious to everyone what this team needs to do. They have a lot of depth at wing, a defense that needs a top pairing guy and possibly another top four guy, a better goalie to play in tandem with Hart, and a 3C. Making all of that happen in one offseason will be extremely difficult, but they have to try. Wasn't it the great Wayne Gretzky who said you missed 100 percent of the shots you don't take. This organization needs to start taking shots and making an attempt to fix something that is obviously broken. How anyone who follows this team doesn't realize all of this is a mystery to me. Either way, is this a good enough ''intelligent conversation'' for you homie.
Striiker
Former Flyers Fan
He keeps pushing this bullshit too.
Defended him winning the Ashbee (as if that means anything)
Swears he was our best D this past year
Swears he didn't play bad
Swears that Ghost and Sanheim were problems
Swears Niskanen leaving was the problem
Swears we need more size and physicality
Swears the coaching staff is an asset, not a liability
It's embarrassing. True caveman thinking, just like his masters.
Last edited:
Cody Webster
Registered User
- Jul 18, 2014
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I heard that someone with almost 1000 NHL games told someone that Bill is one of the smartest and most knowledgeable reporters in the game. How are you going to question his knowledge? You obviously don't know what you're talking about
FlyerNutter
In the forest, a man learns what it means to live
Striiker
Former Flyers Fan
I have merely average hockey knowledge, which makes me a genius by comparison.
Tripod
I hate this team
FlyerNutter
In the forest, a man learns what it means to live
The Madrigal
Registered User
Here comes the hyperbole. Nobody said Meltzer was never wrong or infallible. There is a reason he works for the Flyers though and does a podcast with a former Flyers player despite starting off as a guy on Flyers message board. The envy that people have for him and others that have made it is disgusting and says a lot about their lack of character. Either way, carry on with the nonsense and act like I said Meltzer is never wrong or some hockey writing god. He is very successful at what he does and I was told what I was told by a former NHL player which you can believe or not, I give zero f***s either way.
He keep pushing this bullshit too.
Defended him winning the Ashbee (as if that means anything)
Swears he was our best D this past year (all our Dmen underperformed)
Swears he didn't play bad (he did play poorly your correct)
Swears that Ghost and Sanheim were problems (Ghost wasn't... they expected too much from Travis, Provy and Myers who were problems)
Swears Niskanen leaving was the problem (that was a problem that wasn't addressed.. results prove that)
Swears we need more size and physicality (physicality yes + speed... size is not that relevant if you play with grit)
Swears the coaching staff is an asset, not a liability (tend to agree its a liability but they'll get one more chance)
It's embarrassing. True caveman thinking, just like his masters.
Comments above
Tripod
I hate this team
in fairness, Bill was not always disliked. When his opinion went from being an honest one...to one that ONLY seems to push the Flyers agenda, that's when peoples opinions of him changed.
Appleyard writes for the Athletic...so has made it too. And he is likely the most respected poster on here(wish he posted more).
When people CAN'T go against the Flyers for anything they do, it's bias. Just like when people won't give Fletch ANY credit for anything(like the Niskanen trade), it's bias too.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
It's not more or less the same core group of players. Radical changes have been made to the core, too.
Everything has been changed but the self-perpetuating circle jerk at the highest levels responsible for maintaining the same garbage we've been watching.
Paying heavily for a player the org overrates to keep treading water in the same place they've been isn't doing anything different. That's not change. That's more of the same nonsense management we've watched for a decade now.
You miss 100% of shots that you fire wide of the net. That's what Flyers management has done for a long time now from coaching selection to player selection. We need new "shooters" at the highest levels. That's how you fix this team. Not plugging yet another player in and wondering why the fundamentally broken system still fails.
At least you provided some depth, but the last remark is still in the same light I was responding to in my OP.
I’m all for making moves. I’ve done my research and watch the players I like and think will fit. I won’t go on a limb and make comments on players I haven’t watched or don’t know enough about. Most of the names associated with the flyers I have seen, done my research on, and have followed; albeit not as close as my favorites.
I don’t believe the playoff argument is as fluid as it comes out to be, but I can get on board with it. It jus lacks context.
My train of thought for grading a GM is based on significance and substance. Was this move significant or was it made of substance. Moves of substance have a smaller weight in my judgement and moves of significance have a higher weight. Pitlick and Niskanen were substance as their tenure was short. Braun will be here for 3 years and Hayes will be here for 7. Those are significant moves as they require term and $.
The cost to acquire some of the names he’s going after is large. Plus, we actually don’t even know what we are fully getting when we get Seth Jones. He’s been a rollercoaster of inconsistent player throughout his entire career. Analytically, numerically, and by eye test. I still rate that above Provorov’s inconsistency, but I also wouldn’t want to pay a young T6 forward, a young Dman with potential, and draft picks or prospects. The numbers just don’t work. At that point the contract would look something like a 7 yr 56-60 million dollar deal which means the 3 significant moves he mad will require close to 22% of the cap. Over the same stretch of time their averaged impact, analytically and numerically, is worse Than the same ~22% behind Giroux, Voracek, and Hagg.
That’s what scares me. If Fletcher wants to do this then he needs to rebuild from the bottom up because the pieces don’t fit with what he wants to do.
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
That piece gets published on the official Flyers website. Speaks volumes.
But I want to take this post to emphasize that every time Meltzer uses an “advanced stat” — and I mean rudimentary ones — it sounds like a grandma using slang. “Oh, I’m doing just Gucci, grandson! Me and the squad about to play some mahjong.” Fenwick close? The man is lost.
Do you know what rhymes with “lens refraction”?
Ristolainen.
Sort of. Listen, it’s a slant rhyme, who cares.
Don't disagree, but it really depends on what were giving up and what he signs for. If its a Farabee then your bang on.. If its Myers and Patrick/Frost + then that's another story.. I think we're all a little freaked out right now because of the rumours. If the price is too high I'm with you to re assess and fill voids through smaller trades and FA. Seems like the org is panicking when they really shouldn't be. We have multiple needs one big move isn't going to be the end multiple moves need to be made over time to get us a Cup contender
The Madrigal
Registered User
What radical changes have been made to the core over the last nine years that they have won one playoff series with. Total hyperbole considering the changes that have made have been
Giroux, Couturier, and Voracek have been here the entire time. Simmonds, JVR, and Konecny have been here for a large part of those nine years. So their three top forwards have been the same, and the majority of their top 6 forwards have been the same guys. Kevin Hayes is the only significant forward they added recently.
Provorov and Ghost have been here for a large portion of the last nine years. Beyond that integrating Sanheim, Myers, and trading for Niskanen and Braun is hardly radical changes.
The goalie position has been the usual carousel but at what point did they add anyone of significance besides drafting Hart. Mason, Neuvirth, Elliott, etc were for all intents and purposes the same guy and didn't move the needle.
So yeah, they made some changes, but nobody in their right mind would consider any of the changes they made over nearly a decade to be radical. It was Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, and either Simmonds or JVR, and TK making up their main forwards, and then sprinkling in some Hextall draft picks on defense.
Either way, the result speak for themselves because it hasn't worked. You and everyone else can blame coaches and ''broken systems'' all you want but when the same guys have the same lack of success over multiple years with multiple coaches perhaps maybe it isn't the right mix of players and something needs to change. If you honestly think a new coach and GM will magically transform this group of players into a true cup contender you are even more foolish than I thought and that is saying something.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
Touching on your last sentence, that exactly is Fletcher trying to do? What vision or plan is he building to? It's hard to detect.
The rumored pursuit of Jones who simply isn't a good stylistic fit with the coaches he's clearly married himself to is mystifying. There are some huge disconnects in this organization. On the self-evaluation front and league evaluation front.
Striiker
Former Flyers Fan
It's no coincidence that the people most aggressively against advanced stats are the people who understand them the least and misuse them the most. I'm surprised he hasn't let a "corsica" slip yet.
The guy even has to mention +/-, as if that doesn't prove he's a hopeless biased clown. Makes sense though, since it's the most advanced stat he's familiar with.
Needs moar Trouba. Should of.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
9 years? What made you cherrypick that number? This era begins in 2011, though I'd argue that we should be taking it back to the beginning of the Cap Era, when the whole league shifted to a new paradigm and this team has only been left in the dust; aside from a single run built in defiance of best cap practices. You do know that 9 years ago includes a playoff win, right?
Major changes have been made to the core. The only common players going back to The 2011 Shakeup are Giroux and JVR, and JVR has an asterisk. I think you're putting your head in the sand to ignore that. Further. It is not the players fault if a management culture makes lots of changes over a long period and a ton of them fail miserably. That lies at the feet of the failed management culture making these moves. Why expect different results by purging the tiny remnants who have survived the whole time, when the purging and replacing will be done by the same culture that has brought nothing but disappointment, boredom, and failure? Giroux isn't the problem. Voracek isn't the problem. Couturier isn't the problem. Jones isn't the solution. Purging the old guard running the team from top to bottom and starting anew with a fresh, modern culture that can strive for more than occasional mediocrity in the capped NHL is where success lies. It's clear now that nothing else will work. Letting this same group continue to do shit isn't going to suddenly work. Blaming good players for management failures won't fix the root of failure. Bringing in new players won't either; we should know, we've seen a lot of them.
I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you disparaging Fenwick.
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
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Eh, he was accused of pushing the Flyers agenda two years ago when he said Pitlick could be useful, and Pitlick was useful. And he had no role with the Flyers when he said Grossman was still useful when the guy was clearly shot. It would be better if people debated the opinions and gave reasons why they agree or disagree instead of just resorting to name calling.
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