The Red Line
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- Oct 11, 2010
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I got nothing against that! I also think people might be sleeping on Raymond. I think there is huge potential there still.
Zadina
- Thread starter WF19
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Oddbob
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- Jan 21, 2016
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Me neither. I think Raymond is going to be more a 50-65 pt guy long term. Only reason I say that, is some of his goals and assists this year came on some more lucky type plays. He was still really good, and I like he is responsible already in his own end, just not sure I see a long term 70+ pt guy.
The Red Line
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Agree to disagree there, but I still wouldn't hate him as that type of player if you're right, that ain't a bad place to be at all.
I think not playing with a true playmaking center might affect his totals, but I still see an elite (or close to it, depending how you define that word) offensive talent. I see 70+ when he gets into his prime, but if I'm wrong by 10 or 15 points I can live with it.
Gniwder
Registered User
He plays to his ability.... or inability. He needs to practice by having shoving contests against skaters of various builds, short stout guys as well as taller skaters like Seider.
Do they make blocking sleds for hockey like they do for football?
There's just something wrong with his edgework when stationary, haven't done a deep dive into it since it's not like the team is paying me, lol. Besides, I'm a ski instructor, not a skating instructor. (Though I suppose I teach people how to skate on skis, but at a much lower level)
lilidk
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NickH8
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I've gotta disagree. I just can't see a world where this kid just stops developing. His rookie season as a 19 year old is nuts and I don't think people have fully grasped that. Keep your expectations low I know but he has legitimate potential to be a Panarin level guy. He's got the hands, small area game, shot, and agility to do so.
Raymond should be able to consistently do what Jesper Bratt did this year, at least during his peak ~5 years.
Oddbob
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To be fair though, lots of kids have had great starts and stalled or gone backwards. Not saying he will, but it isn't a guarantee he will keep improving.
Gniwder
Registered User
He's got the highest hockey IQ and vision on the team (maybe tied with Seider). He knows what he's going to do with the puck before he even touches it.
Obvious that fatigue set in later in the season, plus Larkin playing with an injury didn't help. On top of that, Blash moved Bert to the second line , which is when Raymond's points started falling off.
His point totals will depend on his usage and overall team quality, and I won't use the word "elite" just yet but I think he'll be a first line NHLer for years to come. Just needs to work on strength and conditioning.
Oddbob
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Yeah, my comments weren't a knock on him, just more tempering of expectations. I think he has great skill, and think 1st line is where he will stay.
So Raymond plateaued at age of 19 is not going to develop anymore, right? He won't get better with getting stronger, more experienced and being surrounded by better players, playing on better PP-unit, right? Because "luck"-theory is a cool story, Bob: he was for 52 goals on ice and his xGF was 52,47.
Gniwder
Registered User
Well let's hope that happens sooner than later, lol. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm starting to get garbage hockey fatigue.
As for the luck factor, it's hockey, you make your own luck. The kid is in the right place at the right time like Robertson, except Raymond can actually skate. Top end vision, just sees the ice so well.....
OgeeOgelthorpe
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I sincerely doubt it. Zadina is out of the league in 2 or 3 years and playing in the KHL.
lilidk
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Zadina was pretty good 200 foot player in juniors, with new coach and new system I hope everything going to change for him. He did pk before, he should do it again.
If he doesn't improve coming season, yes he will be playing somewhere in Europe
OgeeOgelthorpe
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The key here is "IN JUNIORS".
Since being in the AHL and NHL he hasn't been a good 200 foot player. His shot didn't develop like all hoped it would. And he will take the long way to the puck in any zone to avoid getting hit. I want a player like that as far from the PK as possible. Absolutely zero grit.
jaster
I am become woke, destroyer of ignorance.
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Zadina's problem is that he doesn't anticipate well, he doesn't think the game at NHL speed given his strengths. He's too slow to act. He's basically the opposite of Raymond in that way. If the average offensive NHLer is a 0 with this ability, and Gretzky was a 10.... Raymond is probably a 5, and Zadina a -3. Zadina is a shooter, a goal scorer at heart, but it hasn't translated to the NHL because his brain isn't moving quick enough to fully utilize his shot. This, to me is why his ceiling is capped. He can still improve, sure, but I think it's clear he'll never get close to reaching the hype he had when he was drafted.
On a related note, I have to imagine that's one of the more difficult things to scout when looking at 17 and 18 year olds for an NHL team. Trying to figure out if their brain will operate fast enough at the NHL level while they are dangling and demolishing their peers in junior and looking like potential all-stars. Because I remember the most common refrain among Zadina detractors when he was drafted being his skating. Nope, skating isn't great, but it's plenty good enough. Turns out it was the speed of the game that tripped him up.
On a related note, I have to imagine that's one of the more difficult things to scout when looking at 17 and 18 year olds for an NHL team. Trying to figure out if their brain will operate fast enough at the NHL level while they are dangling and demolishing their peers in junior and looking like potential all-stars. Because I remember the most common refrain among Zadina detractors when he was drafted being his skating. Nope, skating isn't great, but it's plenty good enough. Turns out it was the speed of the game that tripped him up.
Gniwder
Registered User
Yup, basically the same problem with ChoLOL that I kept pointing out. Thinks too slow for the NHL, which is why he always tries to slow down the play. Defensemen don't get that luxury.
I think Raz has the same issue, so we'll see how that goes. Everything is sequential with him:
- Get puck
- Take a few strides
- Look for pass
- Pass
With Raymond, it's all one motion unless he plans on carrying the puck himself.
NickH8
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Cholowski taught me my first major lesson scouting, slowing down the play isn't always a good trait. I remembered Lidstrom doing it and thought it was always good. Turns out you need the IQ to make elite plays when you do it, otherwise you're just slow.
Zadina's processor is what's killing him. It's not vague platitudes like "confidence" or "scenery", the dude just doesn't think and make plays with pace. That'll keep him from ever being a top 6 guy.
OgeeOgelthorpe
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There's a difference between slowing down the play and playing slow.
Lidstrom could slow down the play and make the other team slow down to his pace. Cholowski would play slow.
Hardly makes him a worthless player. If someone can teach him like he’s a pitcher. He needs secondary pitches. He needs to be a 4 pitch pitcher. Wrist shots, snap shots, one timers, slap shots, change angles, shot passes. Just mix your offerings and beat the goalie 10% of the time. I don’t care if he never drives play like we thought, as long as he does at least one thing at a plus level.
Gniwder
Registered User
Why not choose a better player to do the same? You don't take a kid with no arm and make him a pitcher. Likewise Zadina can't shoot and whiffs on slappers.
Maybe someone like this James kid or Mazur or whatever.... Stevie is gonna prefer his own picks anyways.
Oddbob
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Show me where I said he has plateaued or where I said he is guaranteed not going to get better? Just my opinion that I see him a tier below franchise wing, not saying he sucks or I don't like him. You do realize lots of players have had great starts and then got worse not better, right? Again, didn't say he was going to get worse or fade away. You seem to be way too riled up over an opinion. RELAX, please!
MBH
Players Play
I' m far from convinced Raymond is going to be a true offense driver, but the kid showed right away things that Zadina didn't show.
Yes, Raymond was given far more opportunity than Zadina ever got.
At the same time, Raymond made good on it.
Zadina never did.
Over three years, Zadina has played 518 minutes with Larkin.
Here are his per 60 numbers at 5 on 5
Goals: .58
Assists: .58
Points: 1.16
Those are 3rd/4th line numbers playing with our best player.
Now here are the same number for Lucas Raymond.
Goals: ,98
Assists: .78
Points: 1.76
There are other factors:
1) Larkin was better last year. Healthier? Happier? Contract year? But another one of those factors might be Raymond.
2) Many of Raymond's Larkin-minutes came w/ Bertuzzi - and Raymond's production was superior w/ Bertuzzie (.68G 1.37A, 2.05P) while a lot of Zadina's time with Larkin was shared with the legendary Mattias Brome.
But still, from the stats test and eye test, Raymond showed how to complement Larkin and thrive. Zadina just doesn't do that.
Yes, Raymond was given far more opportunity than Zadina ever got.
At the same time, Raymond made good on it.
Zadina never did.
Over three years, Zadina has played 518 minutes with Larkin.
Here are his per 60 numbers at 5 on 5
Goals: .58
Assists: .58
Points: 1.16
Those are 3rd/4th line numbers playing with our best player.
Now here are the same number for Lucas Raymond.
Goals: ,98
Assists: .78
Points: 1.76
There are other factors:
1) Larkin was better last year. Healthier? Happier? Contract year? But another one of those factors might be Raymond.
2) Many of Raymond's Larkin-minutes came w/ Bertuzzi - and Raymond's production was superior w/ Bertuzzie (.68G 1.37A, 2.05P) while a lot of Zadina's time with Larkin was shared with the legendary Mattias Brome.
But still, from the stats test and eye test, Raymond showed how to complement Larkin and thrive. Zadina just doesn't do that.
ColdToiletSeats
Registered User
if Zadina doesn't start hot in the first 2 months we better trade him while he's worth something half decent
