Value of: your best offer for Evan Bouchard and Ryan McLeod (with a few stipulations)

[ChaoticOrange]

Nurse has played on the pp successfully before and Ekholm is a hell of a player in his own right.

Play Nurse on the power play and he scores 50+ points easily with the Edmonton Oilers and resembles a 9M dollar hockey player.

Nurse scored 43 points with no first unit power play time. He would blow past 50 points. Maybe 60 points. Ekholm likewise finds great success on the Oilers power play.

You think more poorly of Montreal's chances than I do. Either that or you are one hard-ass negotiator. Which one is it?

Nurse is already playing 24 minutes a night, he can't absorb the powerplay time too, and Edmonton's powerplay has been at its least effective with Nurse on it, or any other left hander. It's set up for a right shot. Ekholm's time is better spent 5 on 5 and on the PK.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I agree that Boyd would and should play lower down the depth chart. He only played as much as he did out of necessity to buy development time for Hayton and McBain. But he's at the price point the Oilers would like for McLeod this year and I think he'd produce about the same as McLeod did last year so that they could fit Bouchard.

I guess I think that it wouldn't be that crazy for someone to throw a 2 yr/$2.15M offer sheet at McLeod and pay a 3rd for him. And would it be that crazy for Lavoie to be put on waivers if the Oilers run a short bench? LOB is a dirt cheap replacement that plays a heavy game and maybe replaces some of the toughness lost from trading Kostin until the trade deadline.

That was my thinking, but I get that it doesn't fully alleviate the cap issues either.

The move is probably to trade Foegele for whatever he can return with no cap coming back.

LOB won't be making any less than Lavoie will, and Lavoie's upside is much higher. He's going to get a very long look in camp, he finished last year in the AHL looking like a legitimate option at 3RW. He's big, strong, loves to shoot and is learning how to play in traffic.

McLeod's got a lot of upside and there were rumours that teams like Boston and Philly were eyeballing him for a 2C role and Edmonton didn't want to move him, I sincerely doubt they'd do it for Boyd and spare bits.

It doesn't really alleviate the cap and the value is pretty bad.

Really, the Oilers don't actually need to move either. 5.6 million should be enough to get both guys done, and if it's not, as you say Foegele or a guy like Kulak make more sense to trade.

 

[Z-Diddy]

Bouchard for Montreal's unprotected 1st, two second rounders, and a 3rd.

That is an outstanding deal for the Habs.

This is the dumbest sh*t I've seen on HF in quite sometime...

 

[Ctrain2k]

I mean, I explained how your PP functions (teehee). So I clearly did watch a lot.

But yes I'm aware that Barrie was moved midseason.

I stand by everything I said. I just don't see what is there in Bouchards game to suggest he's gonna be a top 4 staple.

Kinda like a Severson to me. Not super offensive, but not super defensive or grindy. Average skater.

Just nothing really exciting in his toolbox. Not sure what he's supposed to do. Can fill the spot I guess in a serviceable sort of way.

But I ain't giving up a 1st for that. I'd rather roll the dice on a prospect and find someone who does the things my team is looking for. Whatever that would be.

And yet your description of the PP is wrong lmao. Nuge plays on the left side 90% of the time not McDavid.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Nurse is already playing 24 minutes a night, he can't absorb the powerplay time too, and Edmonton's powerplay has been at its least effective with Nurse on it, or any other left hander. It's set up for a right shot. Ekholm's time is better spent 5 on 5 and on the PK.

Nurse could play less even strength minutes if we could find a RD replacement for Bouchard who could play more reliable even strength minutes and not having Ekholm covering for him. It's all relative.

This is the dumbest sh*t I've seen on HF in quite sometime...

What exactly do you think Montreal's unprotected 1st gets you. Connor Bedard? C'mon man.

 

[HawksDub89]

Everything I’ve read in this thread makes Bouchard sound like a slightly better Seth jones. (Maybe not even slightly better)

Am I off here? (And if so, who’s he compare to)

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Nurse could play less even strength minutes if we could find a RD replacement for Bouchard who could play more reliable even strength minutes and not have have Ekholm covering for him. It's all relative.

a RD coming in won't have any impact on Nurse's 5v5 icetime, and I continue to find it interesting that Bouchard's partners get all the credit for his strong 5v5 play when his underlying numbers have been borderline elite since the day he made the big club fulltime.

He's not a defensive force, but if you look at the underlying numbers you'll see his defensive game actually came a long way last year.

Everything I’ve read in this thread makes Bouchard sound like a slightly better Seth jones. (Maybe not even slightly better)

Am I off here? (And if so, who’s he compare to)

He's a young John Carlson.

 

[Broberg Speed]

a RD coming in won't have any impact on Nurse's 5v5 icetime, and I continue to find it interesting that Bouchard's partners get all the credit for his strong 5v5 play when his underlying numbers have been borderline elite since the day he made the big club fulltime.

He's not a defensive force, but if you look at the underlying numbers you'll see his defensive game actually came a long way last year.

Aren't the Oilers looking for a more reliable RD partner for Nurse?

How wouldn't a Bouchard replacement not have an impact on Nurse and Ekholm 5 on 5.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Aren't the Oilers looking for a more reliable RD partner for Nurse? How wouldn't that have an impact on Nurse and Ekholm.

they're looking for a *better* partner for Nurse, one that can move the puck better than Ceci can. Almost like the Oilers want more puckmovers, not less.

A RD coming in won't change the amount of 5v5 minutes Nurse is playing though.

 

[Broberg Speed]

they're looking for a *better* partner for Nurse, one that can move the puck better than Ceci can. Almost like the Oilers want more puckmovers, not less.

A RD coming in won't change the amount of 5v5 minutes Nurse is playing though.

Bringing in a defensively oriented two-way RD into the Oilers top 4D absolutely affects the Oilers top 4D in ice time 5 on 5. They have a 5 on 5 stud in Ekholm playing LD.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Everything I’ve read in this thread makes Bouchard sound like a slightly better Seth jones. (Maybe not even slightly better)

Am I off here? (And if so, who’s he compare to)

Dougie Hamilton.

 

[EverTheCynic]

And yet your description of the PP is wrong lmao. Nuge plays on the left side 90% of the time not McDavid.

Hmmmmmm yeah not sure about that.

Your PP is more free flowing. Guys will skate a lot more than other teams. But you very much start in a 1-3-1, it's just tilted 20 or so degrees to the left side.

It's a1-3-1, it's just slanted so McDavid is the quarterback. That's why he constantly drops back near the blue line, because hes essentially filling the role the defenseman usually does. McDavid 100% the QB, and Bouchard is just a bumper between McDavid up high and Drai down low.

But you're right that the PP is free flowing. They skate around. McDavid will rove all over the place to get space and open up lanes. When he goes low Nuge will come up the left side to fill empty space.

But that is the general setup and outline of your PP.

Back on point, I dont see it with Bouchard. It's 2023, top 4 "offensive" defensemen need to be elite skaters. It's all about transition these days. Bouchard isn't.

If they're not elite skaters, you want them being rock solid defensively. Either with physicality or hockey sense. Bouchard isn't that either.

Hes just got a meh toolset. Where he doesn't excite nor excel in any area. He just kinda fills a spot on the roster, but isn't an ideal candidate for someone in the top 4.

Doesn't really have an identity. Doesn't really have a role. Doesnt really do anything that warrants the kind of praise he gets from Edmonton fans.

Of course he's gonna get.points on the PP playing with McDrai. And yeah ok maybe he plays that back bumper spot well between the 2 best players on earth.

But that's the point, he's not in that spot on any other team in the league. So you are asking us what we would pay for Bouchard.

And I'm telling you there's nothing exciting about him as a player. I see him as a Severson. Unspectacular player with nothing to his game that moves the needle. Just sort of takes up a spot and doesn't really have a role or identity. He doesn't do the things you want defensemen to do.

2nd and an ok prospect is my offer.

 

[Bank Shot]

Hmmmmmm yeah not sure about that.

Your PP is more free flowing. Guys will skate a lot more than other teams. But you very much start in a 1-3-1, it's just tilted 20 or so degrees to the left side.

It's a1-3-1, it's just slanted so McDavid is the quarterback. That's why he constantly drops back near the blue line, because hes essentially filling the role the defenseman usually does. McDavid 100% the QB, and Bouchard is just a bumper between McDavid up high and Drai down low.

But you're right that the PP is free flowing. They skate around. McDavid will rove all over the place to get space and open up lanes. When he goes low Nuge will come up the left side to fill empty space.

But that is the general setup and outline of your PP.

Nuge is essentially always on the leftside and drops back to D the majority of the time. McDavid plays the right side but is pretty free flowing. He doesn't cover the point nearly as often as RNH does though. McDavid is more often to be found down low than at the point by a mile.

Lots of video evidence on youtube. Just watch it.

So you're still wrong, but I appreciate the hoops you will jump through to make up a bunch of stuff to "prove" Bouchard just stands there on the PP.

And Bouchard is John Carlson not Severson. Sheesh.

 

[EverTheCynic]

Nuge is essentially always on the leftside and drops back to D the majority of the time. McDavid plays the right side but is pretty free flowing. He doesn't cover the point nearly as often as RNH does though. McDavid is more often to be found down low than at the point by a mile.

Lots of video evidence on youtube. Just watch it.

So you're still wrong, but I appreciate the hoops you will jump through to make up a bunch of stuff to "prove" Bouchard just stands there on the PP.

And Bouchard is John Carlson not Severson. Sheesh.

McDavid plays the left side. You look at it from your perspective, not the other teams. It's literally a slanted 1-3-1, where instead of the Dman being in the center of the ice at the blue line, he stands a bit further down closer to the right boards. Because it's tilted, and McDavid plays the QB role.

That said everyone skates around all over the place, but that's the general formation I've seen. No idea what you're talking about.

John Carlson stylistically makes sense for a ceiling comparable I guess. But he is a lot more physical. He fills roles that Bouchard doesn't. That tough outside guy who can make forecheckers feel it and earn their pucks.

Even then, Carlson isn't a super exciting defenseman in 2023. He can play the "punish the forecheckers with physicality" role, so he has that element to add some role and identity to his game.

Bouchard doesn't have anything. I don't understand what you think Bouchard is supposed to do on any other team in the league. What role does he play?

Teams want skating and transition from top 4D. Heiskanen and Hughes and Makar etc. The forwards skate up to the line and kick it back to the D and rely on them for zone entries with possession. They rely on D being able to use their feet to get space under pressure in their own zone for controlled exits. They want them to turn loose pucks up the ice and lead the charge. They want the PP QB to using mobility to walk the line under pressure and get pucks through.

If they can't do that, they want them either being strong and physical on the outside or very strong defensively with positioning and smarts.

Bouchard does neither of those things. What is he supposed to do on another team? What role do you see him filling? He doesn't do anything that you want from Dmen in 2023.

I just don't get it.

 

[Broberg Speed]

McDavid plays the left side. You look at it from your perspective, not the other teams. It's literally a slanted 1-3-1, where instead of the Dman being in the center of the ice at the blue line, he stands a bit further down closer to the right boards. Because it's tilted, and McDavid plays the QB role.

That said everyone skates around all over the place, but that's the general formation I've seen. No idea what you're talking about.

John Carlson stylistically makes sense for a ceiling comparable I guess. But he is a lot more physical. He fills roles that Bouchard doesn't. That tough outside guy who can make forecheckers feel it and earn their pucks.

Even then, Carlson isn't a super exciting defenseman in 2023. He can play the "punish the forecheckers with physicality" role, so he has that element to add some role and identity to his game.

Bouchard doesn't have anything. I don't understand what you think Bouchard is supposed to do on any other team in the league. What role does he play?

Teams want skating and transition from top 4D. Heiskanen and Hughes and Makar etc. The forwards skate up to the line and kick it back to the D and rely on them for zone entries with possession. They rely on D being able to use their feet to get space under pressure in their own zone for controlled exits. They want them to turn loose pucks up the ice and lead the charge. They want the PP QB to using mobility to walk the line under pressure and get pucks through.

If they can't do that, they want them either being strong and physical on the outside or very strong defensively with positioning and smarts.

Bouchard does neither of those things. What is he supposed to do on another team? What role do you see him filling? He doesn't do anything that you want from Dmen in 2023.

I just don't get it.

From this description I don't believe you have ever watched the Oilers power play.

The guy you are trying to set straight has watched every NHL power play Connor McDavid has taken part in.

Don't be so disrespectful

 

[Connor McConnor]

Bouchard had a 29 GF 9 GA at ES when he played with Ekholm. He's needed a proper partner for his development and he finally has one. Why would we trade him? He's rounding out very nicely.

 

[Ctrain2k]

McDavid plays the left side. You look at it from your perspective, not the other teams. It's literally a slanted 1-3-1, where instead of the Dman being in the center of the ice at the blue line, he stands a bit further down closer to the right boards. Because it's tilted, and McDavid plays the QB role.

That said everyone skates around all over the place, but that's the general formation I've seen. No idea what you're talking about.

John Carlson stylistically makes sense for a ceiling comparable I guess. But he is a lot more physical. He fills roles that Bouchard doesn't. That tough outside guy who can make forecheckers feel it and earn their pucks.

Even then, Carlson isn't a super exciting defenseman in 2023. He can play the "punish the forecheckers with physicality" role, so he has that element to add some role and identity to his game.

Bouchard doesn't have anything. I don't understand what you think Bouchard is supposed to do on any other team in the league. What role does he play?

Teams want skating and transition from top 4D. Heiskanen and Hughes and Makar etc. The forwards skate up to the line and kick it back to the D and rely on them for zone entries with possession. They rely on D being able to use their feet to get space under pressure in their own zone for controlled exits. They want them to turn loose pucks up the ice and lead the charge. They want the PP QB to using mobility to walk the line under pressure and get pucks through.

If they can't do that, they want them either being strong and physical on the outside or very strong defensively with positioning and smarts.

Bouchard does neither of those things. What is he supposed to do on another team? What role do you see him filling? He doesn't do anything that you want from Dmen in 2023.

I just don't get it.

That makes no sense, you don’t need to fit one of two hyper specialized roles to be a good player. Almost all of the top 4 D in the league don’t fit that criteria, is Adam Fox not a top 4 D in the league cause he isn’t an elite skater or punishing guys physically?

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Yes, we have universal consensus with the very first post. But the thread was intended for trade proposals with two players in mind not named Warren Foegele.

Oilers won’t entertain trading Bouchard. An offer sheet is the only way we lose him. I doubt an offer sheet is coming. If it does it’s probably right after McLeod is signed and the teams most vulnerable cap wise.

 

[EverTheCynic]

That makes no sense, you don’t need to fit one of two hyper specialized roles to be a good player. Almost all of the top 4 D in the league don’t fit that criteria, is Adam Fox not a top 4 D in the league cause he isn’t an elite skater or punishing guys physically?

Adam fox is elite defensively with positioning and smarts. He checks a box and fills that role.

Bouchard is not. He doesn't skate. He doesn't defend. He doesn't punish on the outside. He doesn't do the things you want from your top 4 guys in the modern NHL.

If Bouchard was great on the other side of the puck it would be a different story. But he's not.

He doesn't fit any role or do anything for my team and I don't know why you think people would line up to give you a 1st round pick for him.

What role is he playing on other teams in the NHL? What is he doing?

 

[zar]

The context of this thread is not well thought out IMO.

The only way the Oilers trade Bouchard is if they can free up $3m to take on Karlsson, the only better AVAILABLE RHD, at about $6m.

• Dump Campbell’s full contract (??? a lot)
• Land a competent 1B goalie for less than $3m (Vejmelka for Campbell + ?? a lot at this point)
• Land Karlsson @ 50-60 (Bouchard +???)
• Trade Ceci for a solid two way 3rd pairing RHD with a lower cap hit (DeMelo with 33% retention?)

The goalie move frees up $2m and Ceci move probably about $1m.

The Oilers just don’t have the draft or prospect capital to accomplish all of that.

 

[Z-Diddy]

What exactly do you think Montreal's unprotected 1st gets you. Connor Bedard? C'mon man.

It could yes, its absolutely possible, they finished 5th last season, and have added Alex Newhook... looking again to be another top 5 pick, ask MTL fans

Macklin Celebrini a possible early #1 OV, my take is far more realistic, you're overvaluing of Bouchard is flat out embarrassing

 

[HuGo Sham]

It could yes, its absolutely possible, they finished 5th last season, and have added Alex Newhook... looking again to be another top 5 pick, ask MTL fans

Macklin Celebrini a possible early #1 OV, my take is far more realistic, you're overvaluing of Bouchard is flat out embarrassing

with harris, guhle, barron, xhekaj, hutson, mailloux, reinbacher, struble...
Evan Bouchard is not a need. Certainly not for an unprotected first.
habs need to address forward position now.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Should fans of the Edmonton Oilers be surprised there is no interest in Evan Bouchard from around the league?

How much should they pay this player on a contract?

I know this isn't the case, but it sort of feels like they are bidding against themselves for Bouchard. But unless an offer sheet is forthcoming, aren't they?

If recently signed Miller or Byram became available there would be all kinds of interest. But none for Bouchard. I'm a little concerned.

I wonder if Oiler fans value this player appropriately? I've defended Bouchard's value left and right in this thread.

 

[iCanada]

Because this particular poster for some reason hates Bouchard and has been trying to trade him since before he was drafted.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Because this particular poster for some reason hates Bouchard and has been trying to trade him since before he was drafted.

C'mon, that's ridiculous, man. Please read every one of my posts in this thread.

That's not asking much.