Wow the playoffs are intense. Can we compete

[Dreakmur]

how were they soft under keefe last year?

Lost and avoided puck battles.
Avoided physical contact.
Avoided high traffic areas.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Every goaltender can go on crazy streaks where they look like unbeatable superstars and Andersen has been there before. I wish he'd hit one of those streaks in the playoffs.

Long ago I wondered if growing up in Denmark and never playing in a big game with pressure until the NHL impacted his ability to play in them. Kids who grow up in hockey markets like Canada, US and Sweden play tons of huge games before they ever get to the NHL.

 

[Twine Tickler]

This is the best oppourtunity we have had to advance past round 1. It does not mean we will 100% get past the Habs, but this unnecessary fear and digging up of the grave is stupid. There were many reasons why we lost in round 1 in years past, and they are all very valid.

2016-17: Lost to the presidents trophy winning Washington Capitals in 6 games. 5 of those games went to OT and in total played 6 periods of OT. Against the best team in the NHL

2017-18: Lost to the Bruins in 7. We had 105pts on the year (franchise record I believe) and still had to face the bruins who had 112pts on the year. We were largely outplayed, and we did not have good goaltending from Freddy all series.

2018-19: Again, 100 pt season and had to play the Bruins in round 1. We were the better team, and we 2 opportunities to close out the series against a very good team and failed to do so.

2019-20: Lost to CBJ in the play in. Got matched up against a CBJ team that allowed the 3rd least amount of goals/game in the regular season, and then followed it up by stopping 179 of 188 shots faced in the 5 games played. good for a .952 s%....including 2 shutouts....2 shutouts in a best of 5.

we are better suited to play a slower game than ever before. We defend the house better than ever before. People referencing CBJ as a potential outcome for this series need to wake up. MTL does not defend as well as CBJ did last year. They are no where near as good. And they don't generate enough to outscore their deficiencies.

time to be optimistic and understand that this is one of the easier matchups in the 1st round. If we lose, we lose and will clearly deserve it. Because it will mean that we screwed up. But I have a lot of faith in this group and the leadership that we have added. Leafs in 5

 

[Notsince67]

I am certain you and your buddies make all sorts of clever secret burns in your PMs.

That doesn't change that not only were you blatantly wrong, but you're too childish to admit it.

Zeke...you joining the angry guy club. Welcome aboard.

 

[Gary Nylund]

How is it that Andersen can't be blamed for all the goals that he lets in but also cant be blamed at all for all the goals that aren't scored? You don't believe goaltender confidence drives offense?
The Leafs outplayed the CBJ's in 4 out of 5 games and played 1 to a virtual tie.
The first shutout for instance (the virtual tie) had the leafs register 11 medium and high danger shots vs columbus at 6. I seem to remember the rebound control and puck freezing was non-existent. It kinds of favours low danger shots in search of rebounds. It also keeps your players locked into the dzone.
Andersen was not good.

LOL when did I say that?

Like I said, Andersen's been on and off in the playoffs but blaming him for every series we've lost is not something I can agree with. And again, there's only so much blame you can put on a guy with a .936 SV%. Why are you letting high priced forwards who miss the empty net off the hook?

Four playoff series losses. There's plenty of blame to go around for everyone, including Andersen.

 

[saltming]

That's not true at all. They actually had much fewer of those than your average rookie.

Not sure what you're even talking about. They were 6-7 in OT in 2016-2017.

Everybody's game "matures" as they get older and more experienced; you seem to be talking in very vague terms on purpose, as it prevents you from having to pinpoint what "maturing" means in this context, or explaining anything Babcock actually did. You're attributing their growth to Babcock, when there is no evidence of him having any significant positive impacts. We have evidence of him misusing them, and we have evidence of him mistreating them. It seems like you're ignoring all that, in order to praise him for (potentially) doing the literal bare minimum that every NHL coach does.

These were some of the best young players in the entire cap era. Neither played like juniors when in the NHL. Matthews played professional hockey before he was even in the NHL, and scored 4 goals in his debut. Babcock didn't push them; he held them back, and if anything, instilled bad habits and strained relationships. We're lucky his influence was removed fairly quickly, and we've seen the growth in them and the team since, in pretty much every facet of their play.

6-7 is a losing record and IIRC Babcock stopped throwing them out together and mixed in some vets to help and it did.

Maturing in your game is different that playing pro structured game. What Babs called being a good pro. Let's take 2 leafs as examples: Kessel matured as a prolific goal scorer but never became a gud pro player.
Kadri, under Carlyle learned to play the pro game and then also matured into a great hockey player.
Hockey is not just about how many points the player gets and it sounds like a hats how you are evaluating it.
Please share your these bad habits that Babcock instilled in these guys, because back checking and responsible puck management is all I've noticed.

 

[Notsince67]

This is the best oppourtunity we have had to advance past round 1. It does not mean we will 100% get past the Habs, but this unnecessary fear and digging up of the grave is stupid. There were many reasons why we lost in round 1 in years past, and they are all very valid.

2016-17: Lost to the presidents trophy winning Washington Capitals in 6 games. 5 of those games went to OT and in total played 6 periods of OT. Against the best team in the NHL

2017-18: Lost to the Bruins in 7. We had 105pts on the year (franchise record I believe) and still had to face the bruins who had 112pts on the year. We were largely outplayed, and we did not have good goaltending from Freddy all series.

2018-19: Again, 100 pt season and had to play the Bruins in round 1. We were the better team, and we 2 opportunities to close out the series against a very good team and failed to do so.

2019-20: Lost to CBJ in the play in. Got matched up against a CBJ team that allowed the 3rd least amount of goals/game in the regular season, and then followed it up by stopping 179 of 188 shots faced in the 5 games played. good for a .952 s%....including 2 shutouts....2 shutouts in a best of 5.

we are better suited to play a slower game than ever before. We defend the house better than ever before. People referencing CBJ as a potential outcome for this series need to wake up. MTL does not defend as well as CBJ did last year. They are no where near as good. And they don't generate enough to outscore their deficiencies.

time to be optimistic and understand that this is one of the easier matchups in the 1st round. If we lose, we lose and will clearly deserve it. Because it will mean that we screwed up. But I have a lot of faith in this group and the leadership that we have added. Leafs in 5

We notable have far better rebound control and zone entry denial which is huge.
I believe our boys want to win.
I'm not hating on anyone in the starting lineup and the laggards ice time will get shifted.

Just give Campbell a long enough leash and consider him playing back to back games if he is doing well.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Every goaltender can go on crazy streaks where they look like unbeatable superstars and Andersen has been there before. I wish he'd hit one of those streaks in the playoffs.

Long ago I wondered if growing up in Denmark and never playing in a big game with pressure until the NHL impacted his ability to play in them. Kids who grow up in hockey markets like Canada, US and Sweden play tons of huge games before they ever get to the NHL.

Interesting theory. I dunno though, I just had a quick look at his stats and his playoff stats are very similar to his regular season stats so ... let's not forget that we played some pretty tough teams his first 3 years here, against weaker teams we probably win a series or two.

His SV% in the last two playoffs are .922 and .936. That's not so bad, it's pretty damn good actually. Has everyone been watching the other PO games? There have been some goals like make the goalies look really bad, the first PIT goal last night for example was just brutal. Goalies let in bad goals at times, it happens to every single one of them. Looking at overall performance though, blaming Andersen for every playoff loss (not saying that's you) is just a failure to think logically. JMHO.

 

[Twine Tickler]

We notable have far better rebound control and zone entry denial which is huge.
I believe our boys want to win.
I'm not hating on anyone in the starting lineup and the laggards ice time will get shifted.

Just give Campbell a long enough leash and consider him playing back to back games if he is doing well.

Yup, we actually are the better team defensively. So there really shouldn't be a game plan that they implement that favors their style over ours. In fact, they'd probably be better off trying to get us to play north south run and gun hockey like the Sens do. Although they don't have the firepower offensively to keep up. I am not going to watch this series in fear. We will likely not walk all over them, but we should win decisively. If we play our game at even an average capacity we are still better than the Habs playing at their best

 

[Notsince67]

LOL when did I say that?

Like I said, Andersen's been on and off in the playoffs but blaming him for every series we've lost is not something I can agree with. And again, there's only so much blame you can put on a guy with a .936 SV%. Why are you letting high priced forwards who miss the empty net off the hook?

Four playoff series losses. There's plenty of blame to go around for everyone, including Andersen.

Sure.
We reverted to line stacking because we couldnt generate offense while being defensively responsible. The problem was that Marner couldn't be duplicated and none of the big forwards could play well unless they were paired with him.

We had weaknesses but a lot of the weakness came from adjusting to bad goaltending during the year. The forwards didn't know how to play.
The focus of offense vs defense was like a yoyo.
The fix whether intentional or not was 2 pronged.
1. Make everyone play defense as a strategy of generating offense
2. Improvement in goal.

 

[zeke]

Lost and avoided puck battles.
Avoided physical contact.
Avoided high traffic areas.

But they were an excellent team on both sides of the ice under Keefe, and had some of the best slot shot stats in the league.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sure.
We reverted to line stacking because we couldnt generate offense while being defensively responsible. The problem was that Marner couldn't be duplicated and none of the big forwards could play well unless they were paired with him.

We had weaknesses but a lot of the weakness came from adjusting to bad goaltending during the year. The forwards didn't know how to play.
The focus of offense vs defense was like a yoyo.
The fix whether intentional or not was 2 pronged.
1. Make everyone play defense as a strategy of generating offense
2. Improvement in goal.

I can't tell from all that - do you agree with me that there's plenty of blame to go around or are we still blaming Andersen for our last 4 playoff series losses?

 

[Dreakmur]

But they were an excellent team on both sides of the ice under Keefe, and had some of the best slot shot stats in the league.

I didn’t say they weren’t good. I said they were soft.

 

[lottster14]

Habs were first in the NHL in total hits and hits/60. Yes, they will be looking to out muscle us, but we are still a better team overall and have shown we can match the physical play. It should be interesting but I still see us winning in 5 or 6. Leaning towards 6

We can compete against MTL and Winnipeg, We'd stomp the oilers.

 

[IPS]

This will be a huge test for Keefe. Montreal's strategy in the defensive zone is obvious - collapse and take away the middle. And they definitely have the D to do this. It'll be a lot of what Columbus did, they'll have no problem conceding the perimeter but they'll be hard as ever down low and in front of the net.

Keefe has had a long time to figure out how to beat this, we'll see how well he does. And the players better get it through their minds that they're going to have to take some punishment to generate offense.

 

[Notsince67]

I can't tell from all that - do you agree with me that there's plenty of blame to go around or are we still blaming Andersen for our last 4 playoff series losses?

I think the game is complicated. There are weaknesses that can be attributed in a weighted fashion.
I think goaltending was a big one but there were some lackluster individual and team performances for sure. I doubt we were strong enough to win a cup in any of those years even if we had better goaltending but we definitely had an issue that needed addressing to have any hope.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Habs were first in the NHL in total hits and hits/60. Yes, they will be looking to out muscle us, but we are still a better team overall and have shown we can match the physical play. It should be interesting but I still see us winning in 5 or 6. Leaning towards 6

We can compete against MTL and Winnipeg, We'd stomp the oilers.

I'm leaning towards less then 6 myself, I don't know about stomping the Oilers though. They might be the most underrated team on this board right about now.

I think the game is complicated. There are weaknesses that can be attributed in a weighted fashion.
I think goaltending was a big one but there were some lackluster individual and team performances for sure. I doubt we were strong enough to win a cup in any of those years even if we had better goaltending but we definitely had an issue that needed addressing to have any hope.

Sure I agree with all that. I would only add that goaltending wasn't the only issue that needed addressing.

 

[FraumBallard]

We can and we will.

And tbh only the fla-tb game was overly intense.

We’re gonna get run out of the rink.
We play small.
Engvall is the perfect example.
We have Muzzin/Bogo and Foligno.
That’s it.
Simmonds can fight but he won’t stay in the play if he tries to hit throughout a long playoff series.
Physically , we have no one else that plays a consistent hitting game.
Dubas and his non physical build will be exposed , again ; hopefully for the last time.
Adios to Wonder Boy/Shanahan and Keefe.
Habs in 6.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

We’re gonna get run out of the rink.
We play small.
Engvall is the perfect example.
We have Muzzin/Bogo and Foligno.
That’s it.
Simmonds can fight but he won’t stay in the play if he tries to hit throughout a long playoff series.
Physically , we have no one else that plays a consistent hitting game.
Dubas and his non physical build will be exposed , again ; hopefully for the last time.
Adios to Wonder Boy/Shanahan and Keefe.
Habs in 6.

Engvall isn't even in the lineup, so you're going to have to find a new perfect example

 

[TakeTheBody]

Yes.

Next question?

 

[Dekes For Days]

6-7 is a losing record and IIRC Babcock stopped throwing them out together and mixed in some vets to help and it did.

6-7 is not an "abyssmal" OT record, and no, that didn't happen. Not sure what this has to do with anything anyway, as it's the least structured game state, and plenty of veteran teams have been much worse at 3 on 3.

What Babs called being a good pro.

"Be a gud pro" was just a phrase Babcock used to justify his irrational decisions in his mind.

Hockey is not just about how many points the player gets and it sounds like a hats how you are evaluating it.

No, that's not how I'm evaluating it.

habits that Babcock instilled in these guys, because back checking and responsible puck management is all I've noticed.

Babcock did not instill those things; he was actually worse at it than most coaches. We've seen significantly more growth in those areas under Keefe's short time than the entire time under Babcock. Babcock wasn't a fan of responsible puck management; he was a fan of repeatedly giving the puck away for no reason and ignoring our strengths in his game plan.

 

[zeke]

We’re gonna get run out of the rink.

That would be a first.

And the Habs are the smallest weakest team we've ever played in the playoffs.

 

[Gallagbi]

6-7 is a losing record and IIRC Babcock stopped throwing them out together and mixed in some vets to help and it did.

Maturing in your game is different that playing pro structured game. What Babs called being a good pro. Let's take 2 leafs as examples: Kessel matured as a prolific goal scorer but never became a gud pro player.
Kadri, under Carlyle learned to play the pro game and then also matured into a great hockey player.
Hockey is not just about how many points the player gets and it sounds like a hats how you are evaluating it.
Please share your these bad habits that Babcock instilled in these guys, because back checking and responsible puck management is all I've noticed.

Didn't Kessel go on to win a cup and be arguably the teams best player while Kadri "matured" into a player who couldn't control his emotions during the most critical points in a season?

I like them both, but it's a weird way to phrase their progression.


Oddly enough it also seems like Matthews, Marner and Nylander have matured both offensively and defensively under Keefe more than Babs. Wonder if that's the responsibility, faith or just general maturation process of them needing to become better to succeed in this league.

 

[saltming]

6-7 is not an "abyssmal" OT record, and no, that didn't happen. Not sure what this has to do with anything anyway, as it's the least structured game state, and plenty of veteran teams have been much worse at 3 on 3.

"Be a gud pro" was just a phrase Babcock used to justify his irrational decisions in his mind.

No, that's not how I'm evaluating it.

Babcock did not instill those things; he was actually worse at it than most coaches. We've seen significantly more growth in those areas under Keefe's short time than the entire time under Babcock. Babcock wasn't a fan of responsible puck management; he was a fan of repeatedly giving the puck away for no reason and ignoring our strengths in his game plan.

It seems your hate for Babcock is very strong.
I never said 6-7 is abysmal, I said in the first year the big 3 rookies were bad 3on3, you brought up the team record, not sure why.

Babcock's gud pro was his catch phrase to describe players that were pros and played the right way and took the game seriously on and off the ice. Not sure how you go it as his justification for "irrational decisions"

So how are you evaluating it?

Not sure why you're going back to growth under Keefe as I thought you, and I, thought that growth was a natural progression as a player matures. The contention was that Babcock did or didn't help them structure of their game. Keefe inherited players with that structure instilled. What Keefe did was implement a system that played to the strengths of the young guns and the team Dubas assembled.

I'm talking about teaching the young guns to play within a system and not going off script being a lone wolf.

 

[weems]

6-7 is not an "abyssmal" OT record, and no, that didn't happen. Not sure what this has to do with anything anyway, as it's the least structured game state, and plenty of veteran teams have been much worse at 3 on 3.

"Be a gud pro" was just a phrase Babcock used to justify his irrational decisions in his mind.

No, that's not how I'm evaluating it.

Babcock did not instill those things; he was actually worse at it than most coaches. We've seen significantly more growth in those areas under Keefe's short time than the entire time under Babcock. Babcock wasn't a fan of responsible puck management; he was a fan of repeatedly giving the puck away for no reason and ignoring our strengths in his game plan.

This was something that I never understood.

Everyone acknowledged that we werent a great team defensively.

So why were we trying a very low percentage play that essentially gave the other team the puck right back when it didnt work and forced us to go right back to defending, something we definitely didnt excel at.

Not only that but our forwards starting blowing the zone like crazy and everyone was cheating to get up the ice as fast as possible to catch a long stretch pass. Our puck support between the forwards and defence was awful and we didnt manage the puck effectively going up the ice.

We started playing better hockey the minute we stopped relying on the stretch pass.