Wow the playoffs are intense. Can we compete

[LeafGrief]

Every single playoff series we've played with this core has been against very tough physical teams. The Caps, Bruins, and Blue Jackets were all very physical when we faced them and their physicality was never what cost us those series. We've lost to scorching hot special teams in Boston, the Caps were outright better than our plucky upstarts who were happy to make the playoffs, got stonewalled by Columbus's goalies, and had our own little game 7 meltdowns. That's not a physicality problem, we're more than capable of handling physicality. It's all the other aspects of a hockey game and series that we have to worry about, and when I look at this team I think we more than have enough tools to compete and win.

Our D core is huge and more than comfortable playing physical. Jake Muzzin would laugh at this question. Our depth is big and fast. Matthews and Tavares are big, strong, and ultra competitors. Marner dances around the worst anyone has to offer and Nylander scores goals in front of the net. Would it be better if Engvall threw crushing body checks, or Nylander punched a few guys out? Hell yeah, but that's not going to be what costs us if we do end up bowing out at any point. We've absolutely got the tools to be competitive, now they've just got to go out there and get it done.

 

[zeke]

Leafs aren't some China dolls that will shatter from a few checks. Leafs lack of physicality comes from playing puck possession. Hits come from chasing the puck trying to get it back.

Just cause we don't have 50 hits a night doesn't mean the players are all marshmallows.

It's actually pretty funny - the leafs have played arguably the three toughest most physical teams in the league every playoffs, and have never not once failed to "compete".

 

[showtime8]

Leafs aren't some China dolls that will shatter from a few checks. Leafs lack of physicality comes from playing puck possession. Hits come from chasing the puck trying to get it back.

Just cause we don't have 50 hits a night doesn't mean the players are all marshmallows.

The biggest thing that I'd be looking for is, how do the big stars react to the hits coming out. Are they going to be forcing plays and passes to spots where they don't usually or will they push back.

If Josh Anderson is coming to finish a hit on Nylander or Marner, are they doing a one handed flamingo to try and get out the way or are they going to take a hit to make the play.

And on the flip side, does having Hyman and Foligno back on the wing open up a bit of space knowing that he will finish some hits and play in the corners.

Outside of Anderson, I'm not sure if there are any Habs forwards (maybe Armia?) that really intimidate the Leafs. Their defense is bigger and will be a pain to face in scrums.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You literally just called him "borderline top-10" during his good years, which is exactly what I was arguing back then.

So you're finally agreeing with what I said all along.

Good on you, Gary.

What you said is that he was mediocre. How is a goalie who was 4th in Vezina voting mediocre?

Can you give one straight answer without changing the subject - explain how 4th in Vezina voting is mediocre. I know you love stats so show us any stats you like. Take all the time you need but if you're going to change the subject again and not answer then just don't bother.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Garthinater]

Its amazing how flawed the leafs team has been over the last 2 years and yet Babcock gets all the hate.

Its almost like we didn't have the right mix of players which babs was not responsible for.

 

[zeke]

Changing the subject and personal attacks aren't an answer.

You said multiple times that Andersen who was 4th in Vezina voting was mediocre. If you can't admit you're wrong than explain - how did you arrive at that conclusion. If you plan to never answer then how about you say so and I'll stop asking.

One straight answer without changing the subject or personal attacks. Is that too much to ask for?

And as for the vezina voting argument, vezina votes from 16/17 to 18/19:

1. Vasilevskiy 167
2. Bobrovsky 146
3. Rinne 137
4. Holtby 87
5. Hellebyuck 82
6. Bishop 64
7. Price 27
8. Fleury 22
9. Lehner 17
9. Talbot 17
11. Andersen 13
12. Binnington 9
12. Kuemper 9
14. Dubnyk 8
15. Rask 7
16. Jones 1
16. Luongo 1
16. Quick 1
16. Gibson 1
16. Markstrom 1


Says exactly what you now finally agree with me on - borderline top-10 goalie at best in his peak years.

And that's even taking vezina votes at face value and not even discussing whether he deserved those votes or not.

 

[LeafGrief]

The biggest thing that I'd be looking for is, how do the big stars react to the hits coming out. Are they going to be forcing plays and passes to spots where they don't usually or will they push back.

If Josh Anderson is coming to finish a hit on Nylander or Marner, are they doing a one handed flamingo to try and get out the way or are they going to take a hit to make the play.

And on the flip side, does having Hyman and Foligno back on the wing open up a bit of space knowing that he will finish some hits and play in the corners.

Outside of Anderson, I'm not sure if there are any Habs forwards (maybe Armia?) that really intimidate the Leafs. Their defense is bigger and will be a pain to face in scrums.

They have played series against: Tom Wilson, Zdeno Chara, Jake DeBrusk (grrr), Nick Foligno, the entire rest of a Tortorella coached team, Alex Ovechkin, Brandon Carlo, TJ Oshie and a whole bunch of other guys who throw the body. Josh Anderson is just another drop in the bucket, our guys went to OT 5 times as rookies against the Caps, physicality has never been a big problem.

Montreal's speed on the forecheck will be the challenge, not the physicality. Montreal will literally be the softest team we've faced in the playoffs yet.

 

[zeke]

The first post that I responded to was comparing our moderate success with other teams' failings, without the context that the others had just had more success.

Actually the first post you responded to was attempting to directly respond to the topic of this thread - I.e. whether the leafs can "compete" in the playoffs.

I pointed out the obvious fact that the Leafs have never failed to "compete" in the playoff, with every series being a very close battle with some of the most physical teams in hockey.

For context, I then showed examples of all the elite teams actually "failing to compete" in the playoffs, something we've yet to see from these leafs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And as for the vezina voting argument, vezina votes from 16/17 to 18/19:

1. Vasilevskiy 167
2. Bobrovsky 146
3. Rinne 137
4. Holtby 87
5. Hellebyuck 82
6. Bishop 64
7. Price 27
8. Fleury 22
9. Lehner 17
9. Talbot 17
11. Andersen 13
12. Binnington 9
12. Kuemper 9
14. Dubnyk 8
15. Rask 7
16. Jones 1
16. Luongo 1
16. Quick 1
16. Gibson 1
16. Markstrom 1


Says exactly what you now finally agree with me on - borderline top-10 goalie at best in his peak years.

And that's even taking vezina votes at face value and not even discussing whether he deserved those votes or not.

Since you put in the effort to post those numbers, I think we can assume you consider the to have at least some value. OK. For that 3 year period he was the 11th best goalie in the world, reaching top 4 in his best season.

Ok since you never give a straight answer, let's put it this way. You've finally admitted that Andersen was a borderline top 10 goalie for his first 3 years here reaching top 5 at his peak. That is pretty damn good so thank you Zeke for finally admitting that you were just wrong when you earlier said that he was just mediocre at that time.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Da roster mix was always wrong until this season .. now we have a complete roster .. we can skate .. we can grind .. we can score .. we can defend .. and we finally have a decent tender .. last step is DA WILL TO WIN .. i think we have that with new additions but it is last question remaining and we will all see what we got Thursday night .. I expect a deep run to league semis .. then i hope we get a good matchup .. like to avoid Canes, Vegas, Bruins/Caps who can all play a beat down hitting speed game .. we got a better shot with Pens, Tampa, Avs who like a more skilled match

 

[Dreakmur]

Its amazing how flawed the leafs team has been over the last 2 years and yet Babcock gets all the hate.

Its almost like we didn't have the right mix of players which babs was not responsible for.

That happens when you spit in your bosses face.

Babcock was right about a lot of things, but you can’t pick a fight with your boss and expect to win.

I do find it funny that Dubas added everything Babcock asked for after he fired him.

 

[showtime8]

They have played series against: Tom Wilson, Zdeno Chara, Jake DeBrusk (grrr), Nick Foligno, the entire rest of a Tortorella coached team, Alex Ovechkin, Brandon Carlo, TJ Oshie and a whole bunch of other guys who throw the body. Josh Anderson is just another drop in the bucket, our guys went to OT 5 times as rookies against the Caps, physicality has never been a big problem.

Montreal's speed on the forecheck will be the challenge, not the physicality. Montreal will literally be the softest team we've faced in the playoffs yet.

I understand they have played all of those players, but what were the results from that?

 

[zeke]

Since you put in the effort to post those numbers, I think we can assume you consider the to have at least some value. OK. For that 3 year period he was the 11th best goalie in the world, reaching top 4 in his best season.

Ok since you never give a straight answer, let's put it this way. You've finally admitted that Andersen was a borderline top 10 goalie for his first 3 years here reaching top 5 at his peak. That is pretty damn good so thank you Zeke for finally admitting that you were just wrong when you earlier said that he was just mediocre at that time.

Everyone can now see clearly that @Gary Nylund , after years of arguing that Andersen was an elite goalie, is finally agreeing with what @zeke said about Andersen all along, and despite attacking and insulting @zeke for years for saying this very thing, @Gary Nylund still childlishly cannot admit he was wrong and l'il ole zeke was right.

That is @Gary Nylund in a nutshell, everyone.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I understand they have played all of those players, but what were the results from that?

Extremely close series against some great teams; none of which were lost in any way due to physicality.

 

[zeke]

Its amazing how flawed the leafs team has been over the last 2 years and yet Babcock gets all the hate.

Its almost like we didn't have the right mix of players which babs was not responsible for.

sorry what great flaw have you seen in the team since Keefe took over?

 

[LeafGrief]

I understand they have played all of those players, but what were the results from that?

Caps over us in 6, 5 games to overtime. Considering that we were the 8th seed that finished in dead last the year before and the Caps had just won the President's trophy, I'd say our guys acclimated themselves extremely well. Matthews had 4 goals and 1 assist, Marner and Nylander each had 1g 3a.

Bruins in 7 twice. Bruins were ahead of us in the standings both years but not by THAT much. Matthews had 2 points in 17-18, Nylander had 4, Marner had 9. In 18-19, Matthews had 6, Tavares had 5, Marner had 4, and Nylander 3. The Bruins went 33% and then 45% on the PP in those series, accounting for 7 goals each time.

Columbus over us in 5. We couldn't score on their goalies, Korpisalo and Merzlikins both had like .945sv%. We should have won this series, but we dominated the scoring chances the whole way through and just got outgoalied. Columbus's physicality was part of their game plan, but they lose quickly and quietly if they get even slightly worse goaltending.

We lost all of those series and physicality is part of what made our opponents good teams, but it is not the reason that we lost. Special teams and goaltending were far more impactful. Physicality is a good thing for a team to have, especially over the course of a series, but it's nowhere near big enough of a factor against us to be the deciding factor. Marner hung 9 points on the Bruins in 17-18, he's not going to be scared of Josh Anderson or Shea Weber any more than he was afraid of DeBrusk and Chara.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Everyone can now see clearly that @Gary Nylund , after years of arguing that Andersen was an elite goalie, is finally agreeing with what @zeke said about Andersen all along, and despite attacking and insulting @zeke for years for saying this very thing, @Gary Nylund still childlishly cannot admit he was wrong and l'il ole zeke was right.

That is @Gary Nylund in a nutshell, everyone.

You were wrong to say Andersen was meciodcre.

I'm also pretty sure I've never said Andersen was an elite goalie. Since you claim I was saying this for years, it should be easy to find some of these posts. Mind you he was pretty much elite I guess that one year, certainly much more accurate to say elite than mediocre.

Put up or shut up Zeke. you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Dreakmur]

sorry what great flaw have you seen in the team since Keefe took over?

Pretty soft until this year.

 

[justashadowof]

No not all of them. Playing tough isn’t necessarily total hits.

Taking hits and going into a corner committed to win a 50/50 puck knowing you could get knocked on your rearend. That's toughness NHL players with low hit totals can readily exhibit.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Pretty soft until this year.

We're still a relatively soft. This team is definitely one of the softer teams in the playoffs. Just have to hope that when push comes to shove, we can still compete in a physical environment, while still letting our skill and speed lead us home.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Pretty soft until this year.

It's kind of weird how they collapse at crucial moments. One goal lead going to period 3 game 7, they lose the game 7-4. The next game 7 they lose 5-1. Then next season against a much weaker opponent, they get shut out in the deciding game. It's like they're right there with whoever but as soon as they approach the finish line, they just trip over themselves. Not sure if it's softness (physical or mental) but it's been weird, not sure how else to describe it.

Whatever, hopefully it's just one of those things. Can't explain it but hopefully it's just over now.

 

[zeke]

You were wrong to say Andersen was meciodcre.

I'm also pretty sure I've never said Andersen was an elite goalie. Since you claim I was saying this for years, it should be easy to find some of these posts.

Put up or shut up Zeke. you're embarrassing yourself.

You and I, and everyone else reading, knows exactly who is too much of a child to admit he was wrong.

While you and leafs nation insisted Andersen was an elite goalie during those first 3 years, l'il ole zeke pointed out that he was average to above average at best - or, if you will, a "borderline top-10 goalie in a 30 team league".

And now after all this time, after all the insults, you finally agree.

 

[zeke]

Pretty soft until this year.

how were they soft under keefe last year?

 

[therealkoho]

It's actually pretty funny - the leafs have played arguably the three toughest most physical teams in the league every playoffs, and have never not once failed to "compete".

I get what you're saying, but competing is all fine and dandy but success is found in the W's

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Last 3 series we've played all went to the last deciding game and we lost them by a collective score of 15-5. Outscored 4-0 in the 3rd period the first time, then 5-1 and 3-0 losses. You can yap all you want about how it was "close" but at the deciding moments it wasn't close at all, it was like we didn't even show up.

Are you going to tell us more about the "no shows" of the defending cup champions? What a joke. It's just embarrassing to hear you keep going on about how good we are and how good these other teams that actually win in the playoffs sometimes aren't. Just stop already FFS and put the bragging on hold until we actually win something.

If Andersen wasn't getting smoked by the opposing goalie(s) in every series we likely win all of them.

Holtby outplayed him badly.

Rask destroyed him.

Columbus goalies were much better.

There is no getting past the fact that if not for Andersen losing the goalie match ups badly we likely win all those series.