Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[joelef]

Atlanta is a lot more “ sexy” then Quebec city

 

[Yukon Joe]

Atlanta is a lot more “ sexy” then Quebec city

Bigger? Sure.

More money to be made? Probably.

Larger media market? Of course.

But sexy? SEXY? I'm sorry man, I have to give the "more sexy" title to Quebec City in a landslide.

 

[Ernie]

The weak Canadian dollar makes it very tough for small market Canadian teams.

This is the exact reason that the BoD wasn't keen on Quebec City. There was possibly an economic case when the dollar was at par and expansion prices were $500m. Not anymore.

 

[Bostonzamboni]

Bigger? Sure.

More money to be made? Probably.

Larger media market? Of course.

But sexy? SEXY? I'm sorry man, I have to give the "more sexy" title to Quebec City in a landslide.

Long post...

But to some or most Americans, Atlanta is indeed sexier than Quebec City. And most of us wouldn't know or care if Quebec City is the same as Quebec provincne -- and I doubt most Americans Blacks know anything about Quebec City, but definitely Atlanta. Most Americans,.I think, would like a trip to Atlanta, not Quebec City.

Quebec City AND Canada are irrelevant AND anonymous to most of us. Am I wrong?

We know about the Braves, Falcons. Hawks, college football there, Georgia Tech and University of Georgia, Hip Hop culture, the burning of the South. Real Housewives of Atlanta show. Oh. Elton John lives there!
Well, okay, maybe some do know of Quebec due to Celine Dion?

Quebec? Where is THAT? Canada? Oh. Ummm...yeah....Canada. Doesn't it get real cold there? Most have no clue about the Carnival there. We never heard of the walled city and charming Old Quebec city, the Chateau Frontenac, St. Lawrence River, etc.

"Oh, those stupid and rude and non-tipping Frenchies, eh?". I've heard that about Montrealers from some (many?) Americans visiting there and about French Canadians visiting here.

Yes, I've often read and heard about Quebecois being rude and non-tippers when they are at Old Orchard Beach in Maine, maybe also in Oqunquit, Maine also, and in Florida. Is that accurate? Do they at least tip when home?

My family tree is Quebec and other parts of Canadia, while I'm American, if anyone is wondering. So I don't like hearing negatives about certain or most province of Quebec folks, whether true or not.

To the average American, Quebec is not sexy; it's simply anonymous to most Americans, especially if not living in the northeast. Would have no added desire to see a hockey game on tv from Quebec. Haven't heard of the Nordiques.

But...my elderly friend from the Boston area loves visiting Quebec City, as he was a high school French teacher and had chaperoned trips there for his French class students there several times years ago.

For educated and well-travelled Americans, yes, I believe they would love to visit Quebec City and Montreal. Others are unaware.

 

[Yukon Joe]

To the average American, Quebec is not sexy; it's simply anonymous to most Americans, especially if not living in the northeast. Would have no added desire to see a hockey game on tv from Quebec. Haven't heard of the Nordiques.

But...my elderly friend from the Boston area loves visiting Quebec City, as he was a high school French teacher and had chaperoned trips there for his French class students there several times years ago.

For educated and well-travelled Americans, yes, I believe they would love to visit Quebec City and Montreal. Others are unaware.

Not sure what to say to this.

I'm sure you can find Uncle Cleetus from Arkansas whose idea of a great Friday night is to go down to the Piggly Wiggly for supplies then get drunk on moonshine and go hit on his sister.

It can be useful to talk about what the "average American" thinks, but more often than not it's more useful to talk about what people familiar with the situation think. And this is one of those situations.

(apologies to anyone from Arkansas - I do know people from there and they do not live up to the crude stereotype I just laid out)

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Bigger? Sure.

More money to be made? Probably.

Larger media market? Of course.

But sexy? SEXY? I'm sorry man, I have to give the "more sexy" title to Quebec City in a landslide.

It’s sexier to NHL. And Atlanta is fun city.

 

[Jets4Life]

Economics. Only so much money out there. Not only does Atlanta now have a metro area almost 9 times the population of Winnipeg, but it’s been growing rapidly. When this happens, corporations follow the migration and teams can then also get corporate $$.

I agree that Atlanta should technically have a team again. Houston would be my #1 choice, followed by Atlanta.

In fairness, Atlanta has been growing faster than most US cities for 40 years, and they have had two shots at an NHL team, and ultimately relocated. I can see the NHL being wary of a return to the area for at least another 10-15 years.

PS...technically the Atlanta area has roughly 7 times the population of Winnipeg, not 9 times.

 

[Jets4Life]

i think its changing now...

you have sunbelt teams that are winning (florida, tampa, carolina, nashville)....

also, those teams are growing the game by attracting kids to play ice hockey...

More Americans are playing in the NHL than at any point in history (approx 28% of all players). Of all the US states, only Massachusetts saw a decrease in number of NHL players produced. America produced 43 NHL players in Sunbelt cities, compared to only 4 in 1991-92.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I should note as well, that Manitoba had it's best year in the first round of the NHL draft in decades last season.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Market size and growth/potential are only theoretical concepts that people rely on to sell the impression that you can make more money later when I'd be very curious to know how many times it actually pans out. For the NHL specifically, we've seen countless times where all of that mean pretty much nothing.

Is it? Rangers are more valuable than any Canadian teams other than Leafs.

 

[Jets4Life]

That does not explain how the the Coyotes precovid attendance in 2019-20 as a perrenial bottom feeder was higher than the Jets attendance this past season. The Coyotes were perennial bottom feeders preceeding that season and the Jets are obviously a perennial playoff team. But sure, take the easy swipe at their arena. It is a lot easier to pick the low hanging fruit for the Coyotes and ignoring the problems facing the Jets.

The Jets have not been a "perennial" playoff team. The Jets only made the playoffs once in their first six seasons. Then they qualified twice in a row, before being knocked out in the qualifying round (just like Arizona in 2020), before barely making it into the playoffs in 2020-21.

Technically, the jets have missed the playoffs in 7 of their 12 NHL seasons.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Atlanta is a lot more “ sexy” then Quebec city

I know what you mean by this..

...but from someone that has been to both cities, you're, shall we say, using the wrong adjective here.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The Jets have not been a "perennial" playoff team. The Jets only made the playoffs once in their first six seasons. Then they qualified twice in a row, before being knocked out in the qualifying round (just like Arizona in 2020), before barely making it into the playoffs in 2020-21.

Technically, the jets have missed the playoffs in 7 of their 12 NHL seasons.

Perennial might have been an exaggeration on my part. Regardless, they were an expectant playoff team for several years by that point

 

[Bixby Snyder]

View attachment 690200

More Americans are playing in the NHL than at any point in history (approx 28% of all players). Of all the US states, only Massachusetts saw a decrease in number of NHL players produced. America produced 43 NHL players in Sunbelt cities, compared to only 4 in 1991-92.

This is a pretty interesting illustration of how growing the game is actually working. I would expect the numbers for Washington state and Nevada to grow by a fair amount over the next decade.

 

[Reaser]

This is a pretty interesting illustration of how growing the game is actually working. I would expect the numbers for Washington state and Nevada to grow by a fair amount over the next decade.

I'm not sure it shows that. It more shows NHL teams willingness to draft/sign American players, to me. Plus of course, better/more American talent from better/more development.

Everywhere increased, besides Mass., including places without NHL teams, or without at the time like WA which went from 0 to 5 before the Kraken.

That big jump in the Sun Belt. You have to put it into context. How many of the +38 differential are the result of 'growing the game'? As in, NHL team in new market created players that wouldn't have otherwise played hockey. Like Blake Coleman, went to Stars games in Dallas, so +1.

What about Thomas Bordeleau, born in TX because his NHL playing dad was playing for the AHL team. AZ has 6 listed, two are Tkachuk brothers. Tage Thompson is another. That's not AZ or the Yotes existing producing players (yes yes, Matthews), that's their parents were in AZ because they were with the NHL team, but these type of cases could have been born and grew up anywhere else in the NHL their dads played/coached/etc.

Or two of the Hughes brothers counting for Florida. If TB and FLA didn't exist would they not have played hockey? Or is NHL in FL obviously not a factor in that case.

And that sums up a good chunk of the alleged "'growing the game' has the Sun Belt producing all these players." Created a lot less "new" hockey players than the 43 number implies, and 43 is already a small # after decades. It's roughly equal between NHL players from non-Sun Belt non-NHL states and players from the Sun Belt with NHL teams. The growth (producing players) people talk about with plopping down a NHL team isn't what people this it is. It's certainly not zero, but it's not the inflated perception, either.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

I'm not sure it shows that. It more shows NHL teams willingness to draft/sign American players, to me. Plus of course, better/more American talent from better/more development.

Everywhere increased, besides Mass., including places without NHL teams, or without at the time like WA which went from 0 to 5 before the Kraken.

That big jump in the Sun Belt. You have to put it into context. How many of the +38 differential are the result of 'growing the game'? As in, NHL team in new market created players that wouldn't have otherwise played hockey. Like Blake Coleman, went to Stars games in Dallas, so +1.

What about Thomas Bordeleau, born in TX because his NHL playing dad was playing for the AHL team. AZ has 6 listed, two are Tkachuk brothers. Tage Thompson is another. That's not AZ or the Yotes existing producing players (yes yes, Matthews), that's their parents were in AZ because they were with the NHL team, but these type of cases could have been born and grew up anywhere else in the NHL their dads played/coached/etc.

Or two of the Hughes brothers counting for Florida. If TB and FLA didn't exist would they not have played hockey? Or is NHL in FL obviously not a factor in that case.

And that sums up a good chunk of the alleged "'growing the game' has the Sun Belt producing all these players." Created a lot less "new" hockey players than the 43 number implies, and 43 is already a small # after decades. It's roughly equal between NHL players from non-Sun Belt non-NHL states and players from the Sun Belt with NHL teams. The growth (producing players) people talk about with plopping down a NHL team isn't what people this it is. It's certainly not zero, but it's not the inflated perception, either.

Teams draft BPA, they weren't less willing to draft or sign American players in the past for some unknown reason, it's simply because the players didn't exist. Forget NHL players and look at growth in youth hockey in these states and it corresponds pretty accurately to what this graphic shows. Using your few individual cases to try to disprove the growth of hockey in The USA especially in the sunbelt areas is nothing more than reaching and coping on your part.

 

[Jets4Life]

Over 1 million is probably the benchmark to keep the team long term regardless of ownership.

It's projected that metro Winnipeg will hit that mark by the mid 2030s, if current projections hold.

Buffalo, OTOH, went from a peak of 1.35 million when granted a franchise in 1970, to 1.15 million as of 2020. During the Sabres lifespan, they have been passed in population by 10 metro areas with current NHL teams (Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Raleigh, Nashville, Las Vegas, Columbus, Phoenix, Denver, and Tampa Bay).

 

[Jets4Life]

i think its changing now...

you have sunbelt teams that are winning (florida, tampa, carolina, nashville)....

also, those teams are growing the game by attracting kids to play ice hockey...

You are correct. After the 1980 Miracle on Ice, 10% of NHL players were America born. By 2006, 20% of NHL players were American born. As of the 2022-23 season, 28.2% of all NHL players were born in America, while the percentage of NHL players born in Canada has dropped to 42.2%.

If trends continue the way they are going, it's conceivable by 2035, there will be more American born NHL players than Canadian born NHL players.

 

[Reaser]

Teams draft BPA, they weren't less willing to draft or sign American players in the past for some unknown reason, it's simply because the players didn't exist. Forget NHL players and look at growth in youth hockey in these states and it corresponds pretty accurately to what this graphic shows. Using your few individual cases to try to disprove the growth of hockey in The USA especially in the sunbelt areas is nothing more than reaching and coping on your part.

What? There's tons of good American hockey players that didn't get a chance in the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc.

Look at the graphic again, as I said, essentially everywhere grew. Minnesota went up +30 players in that time, for example. So how is me saying everywhere grew me trying to "disprove the growth of hockey in the USA"? That doesn't even make sense.

Also, not sure what "coping" that would be for me?

As for the Sun Belt, and the graphic is based on "born,", what I said was accurate. It's not 1-2 cases, there's a sizeable chunk. The growth in terms of producing "new" players that otherwise wouldn't have been involved with hockey is overstated, because a sizeable chunk of those players are from NHL families and were just born where their parent played and/or worked for NHL team. That's just common sense. Plus of course, players that were just born somewhere then moved to where they actually grew up and started playing hockey.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Teams draft BPA, they weren't less willing to draft or sign American players in the past for some unknown reason, it's simply because the players didn't exist. Forget NHL players and look at growth in youth hockey in these states and it corresponds pretty accurately to what this graphic shows. Using your few individual cases to try to disprove the growth of hockey in The USA especially in the sunbelt areas is nothing more than reaching and coping on your part.

You know I don't quite agree with this.

There has always been an "old boys" mentality in the NHL. Many/most managers are still Canadian and there's still an inherent bias for good old Canadian boys.

I mean this thread is about the Winnipeg Jets. It seems clear the Jets like drafting Americans, seeming to think they're being otherwise undervalued by other GMs and scouts. You can go through the roster and see how many of the players they drafted are from the US: Appleton, Connor, Lowry (American-born but grew up in Canada), Samberg, and Hellebuyck.

 

[Jets4Life]

I'm not sure it shows that. It more shows NHL teams willingness to draft/sign American players, to me. Plus of course, better/more American talent from better/more development.

Everywhere increased, besides Mass., including places without NHL teams, or without at the time like WA which went from 0 to 5 before the Kraken.

That big jump in the Sun Belt. You have to put it into context. How many of the +38 differential are the result of 'growing the game'? As in, NHL team in new market created players that wouldn't have otherwise played hockey. Like Blake Coleman, went to Stars games in Dallas, so +1.

What about Thomas Bordeleau, born in TX because his NHL playing dad was playing for the AHL team. AZ has 6 listed, two are Tkachuk brothers. Tage Thompson is another. That's not AZ or the Yotes existing producing players (yes yes, Matthews), that's their parents were in AZ because they were with the NHL team, but these type of cases could have been born and grew up anywhere else in the NHL their dads played/coached/etc.

Or two of the Hughes brothers counting for Florida. If TB and FLA didn't exist would they not have played hockey? Or is NHL in FL obviously not a factor in that case.

And that sums up a good chunk of the alleged "'growing the game' has the Sun Belt producing all these players." Created a lot less "new" hockey players than the 43 number implies, and 43 is already a small # after decades. It's roughly equal between NHL players from non-Sun Belt non-NHL states and players from the Sun Belt with NHL teams. The growth (producing players) people talk about with plopping down a NHL team isn't what people this it is. It's certainly not zero, but it's not the inflated perception, either.

I think that number of hockey rinks in a sunbelt city, and the high cost of playing the game has deterred most of the population from participating. It's not like basketball or football, where one can pretty much play at any park, and virtually every high school or rec centre in America must have a football field. Basketball is even easier to play, as the cost of building a court, and the lack of equipment allows all income groups to participate.

Were seeing this in Canada. When I was a child in the 80s, there were far more community centres and outdoor rinks in Canadian cities. Due to costs of the upkeep of these rinks, they are being closed and demolished in favor of multi-sport rec centres with one or two rinks in a large area, instead of a dozen outdoor rinks. The cost of playing hockey has risen exponentially in Canada.

This is precisely why kids in cities like Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal are turning to soccer, basketball, and other sports. Even though Toronto and Vancouver are the most ethnically diverse cities in North America, very few visible minorities are playing the game. I think price is an obvious factor. However, I am sure that non-White kids may feel out of place (especially in Toronto) where the city is 60% visible minorities, but only 10% of hockey players are visible minorities. Hockey seems to becoming more like golf and tennis, in that it is viewed somewhat as an upper class Caucasian sport.

The NHL has made efforts to address this, including programs to be inclusive of all groups of people. Hopefully it has some degree of success. On a side note, Indigenous Canadians have bucked the trend, and are well represented in hockey when considering only 4.5 people in Canada are Native.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

What? There's tons of good American hockey players that didn't get a chance in the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc.

There were many good players that didn't get a shot during the O6 era. Frank Brimsek was the only American player that was a legit star during that time. I would think if there were other elite level American players around at the time the US based teams would have signed them especially the teams that may be having trouble drawing fans.

Also, not sure what "coping" that would be for me?

It was a dumb comment on my part, sorry.

As for the Sun Belt, and the graphic is based on "born,", what I said was accurate. It's not 1-2 cases, there's a sizeable chunk. The growth in terms of producing "new" players that otherwise wouldn't have been involved with hockey is overstated, because a sizeable chunk of those players are from NHL families and were just born where their parent played and/or worked for NHL team. That's just common sense. Plus of course, players that were just born somewhere then moved to where they actually grew up and started playing hockey.

Like I said in the previous post look at youth hockey in those states. Take Auston Matthews as an example even if he ends up being the only star level player to come out of Arizona it still doesn't happen if he isn't playing with and against other players at a relatively high level.

 

[Slats432]

I pointed out when Winnipeg got it's team back that it's previous iteration was only above league average in attendance twice. They were ok for a while and now that the shine might be off, it is going to be a tough financial situation.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

The Jets have not been a "perennial" playoff team. The Jets only made the playoffs once in their first six seasons. Then they qualified twice in a row, before being knocked out in the qualifying round (just like Arizona in 2020), before barely making it into the playoffs in 2020-21.

Technically, the jets have missed the playoffs in 7 of their 12 NHL seasons.

I count a successful NHL season as one where a team wins a single playoff series in front of real fans.

The Jets have had one such season since their return.

 

[oldunclehue]

I pointed out when Winnipeg got it's team back that it's previous iteration was only above league average in attendance twice. They were ok for a while and now that the shine might be off, it is going to be a tough financial situation.

Yup....the ownership group really took for granted they had a strong showing of Season ticket holders for the first while, then they jacked up all the prices and continued to push STH to the brink of what they are comfortable with paying. I live 3 hours from the city and know of at least 5 groups that shared season tickets....they split them and would make the trip in to the city for games. Now no one does. They have all gotten rid of their tickets and rarely go in.

Gas, travel associated costs, hotels, meals etc etc don't help. Many Many rural STH have walked away and won't go back. So residents of the city likely will have to step up.

Also with the crime rate in the downtown area, along with two new "low income housing" developments planned for the area. I don't see myself going to a game.