Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[Yukon Joe]

I was also a long time member over there. You guys must remember Dave ( rip) . He was the organizer of the petition to have the team be called the Jets. He asked me if he should do it and I told him why not?
I am the second name on that petition. He was first.

Dave K?

IIRC it was his idea to get the "True North!" shout out going.

 

[rkhum]

This is why Quebec has not, will not, get a team. The fan support is there but both Quebec and Winnipeg are just too small in terms of market size and dollars.

 

[Lions67]

Dave K?

IIRC it was his idea to get the "True North!" shout out going.

I can’t recall if it was Dave who got the whole True North shoutout going, but he definitely got that petition started.
I hope Darren is doing well same with Hendrix.
I hope you all are doing well actually!
Cheers to you all and let’s hope for a big game 3 win!

 

[End on a Hinote]

Sad story.

Darren started Jetsowner.com in 2003. Seemed like a good guy. Met him in 2005.

I was a member of Jetsowner from 2005-09. By 2009, I guess his ego may have become inflated. My friend had held a street hockey tournamnt in spring 2009, to bring awareness to the return of the Jets, as a seperate entity of Jetsowner.com. Ford pretty much had the opinion "you have to go through me first, as I am the only credible person with a grassroots movement to bring back the Jets."

I applaud Darren for starting a website dedicated to us "dreamers" at the time. But it just seemed like his ego got the best of him later on. Such a shame..

Last I heard, Darren was banned from Twitter. I recall that he owns a wine making shop.

I'm a former ROTJ poster myself. Disappointing to hear that DFs ego got the better of him during the campaign but it happens especially when an everyday person becomes somewhat of an important figure for a cause.

Silly question, but wouldn't have the Jets returned regardless of the campaign? I know DF had his sources but I can't imagine a simple online petition would have been enough to get TNSE to invest in a team.

 

[SImpelton]

I was afraid of this. Winnipeg is by far the tiniest market still in the NHL. They're alright when the economy's good but when it hits the proverbial fan, it's an open question whether they can sustain. This is what killed the original Jets when the exchange rate went sour.

At a certain point you have to look at their situation dispassionately. Yes, getting the Jets back was a victory for Canada in a way, but the bottom line doesn't change. At a certain point, ownership is going to look at any one of the about 6 unserved US markets that are way larger, and say to themselves "I' definitely be making more money if I just moved to Salt Lake/Houston/Portland/KC/Atlanta/Milwaukee."

Anyone of those markets could enrich and owner more easily and more consistently than Winnipeg, and that's the sad truth.

 

[SImpelton]

Exactly how (and why) is relying on the same great fans, both corporate and the individual, not sustainable?

costs rise. If revenue doesn't rise with them, then you're either stagnant or dying as a business. Growth is life.

 

[Jets4Life]

I'm a former ROTJ poster myself. Disappointing to hear that DFs ego got the better of him during the campaign but it happens especially when an everyday person becomes somewhat of an important figure for a cause.

Silly question, but wouldn't have the Jets returned regardless of the campaign? I know DF had his sources but I can't imagine a simple online petition would have been enough to get TNSE to invest in a team.

I believe the poster was referring to David Kehler's petition in regards to the name being "Winnipeg Jets." He passed away in 2012, but was a die-hard Jets fan and ROTJ long time member.

 

[Jedub]

I was afraid of this. Winnipeg is by far the tiniest market still in the NHL. They're alright when the economy's good but when it hits the proverbial fan, it's an open question whether they can sustain. This is what killed the original Jets when the exchange rate went sour.

At a certain point you have to look at their situation dispassionately. Yes, getting the Jets back was a victory for Canada in a way, but the bottom line doesn't change. At a certain point, ownership is going to look at any one of the about 6 unserved US markets that are way larger, and say to themselves "I' definitely be making more money if I just moved to Salt Lake/Houston/Portland/KC/Atlanta/Milwaukee."

Anyone of those markets could enrich and owner more easily and more consistently than Winnipeg, and that's the sad truth.

The bottom line is completely different than it was with 1.0, and as many people have pointed out, the Jets are a small part of TN's overall downtown portfolio. The chance that the Jets will move is very small.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The bottom line is completely different than it was with 1.0, and as many people have pointed out, the Jets are a small part of TN's overall downtown portfolio. The chance that the Jets will move is very small.

Under current ownership I agree.

If Thompson ever sells the team who knows, but that;s not gonna happen until either he passes or he's too old I imagine, And by then Winnipeg might have grown enough to not have to worry about it. I've been saying safe benchmark is 1 million people in the metro area.

 

[TheLegend]

Doesn’t look like much of an attendance problem to me today…..




Think it gets to what someone mentioned way up thread about problem with the team’s customer service and how management treats its fans in general.

 

[Mike Jones]

Doesn’t look like much of an attendance problem to me today…..




Think it gets to what someone mentioned way up thread about problem with the team’s customer service and how management treats its fans in general.

I've been watching the game and thinking the same thing. Take a look at the outside shots. Incredible crowd.

 

[Digital Kid]

I've been watching the game and thinking the same thing. Take a look at the outside shots. Incredible crowd.

Very easy to be part of a crowd when you don't have to pay (or pay a token fee).

I take TNSE's comments as reminding and soliciting rather than threatening.

Having the richest owner in the league probably helps mitigate disaster.

But... if they need to tweak their sales policies as mentioned above, better do it. Never, ever take customers for granted, especially in a world of big screen TVs at home...

 

[SImpelton]

The bottom line is completely different than it was with 1.0, and as many people have pointed out, the Jets are a small part of TN's overall downtown portfolio. The chance that the Jets will move is very small.

I'm sure the bottom line was also completely different for the Winnipeg Jets 1.0 until economic reality caught up with them.

I didn't expect my post to make me very popular, but a t a certain point the city of Winnipeg needs to understand that they're fighting an uphill battle to keep the Jets. American money is a powerful lure.

 

[Mike Jones]

I'm sure the bottom line was also completely different for the Winnipeg Jets 1.0 until economic reality caught up with them.

I didn't expect my post to make me very popular, but a t a certain point the city of Winnipeg needs to understand that they're fighting an uphill battle to keep the Jets. American money is a powerful lure.

This is why the NHL is so sick. Who cares about the real hockey markets when there are southern American deserts just jonesan for a team?

 

[SImpelton]

When the real hockey markets are like 40% or lessof the potential of the underdeveloped major US markets like Atlanta and Houston which are not just much larger towns but major North American media hubs with huge international corporate and media footprints that Manitoba can't even dream of matching, that sentiment becomes both plausible and sensible.

If a franchise serves the needs of the league better in Atlanta or Houston than Winnipeg, and you can make this argument rather convincingly when it comes to national media exposure in the US which eclipses Winnieg's by at least an order of magnitude, then sentiment becomes a pretty poor counterargument.

At best the Jets can be a well run fringe team that can sometimes spend to the cap in a good year. If Atlanta and Houston are successful they are instantly big market franchises that expand the NHL's overall media and revnue generating capabilities simply by existing. The upside is tremendous. Winnipeg is actually at its upside already. There's simply not much more additional potential to having a team there. What they are is what it is, and it's beginning to look like it might not be good enough to weather adversity. We'll see.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I was afraid of this. Winnipeg is by far the tiniest market still in the NHL. They're alright when the economy's good but when it hits the proverbial fan, it's an open question whether they can sustain. This is what killed the original Jets when the exchange rate went sour.

At a certain point you have to look at their situation dispassionately. Yes, getting the Jets back was a victory for Canada in a way, but the bottom line doesn't change. At a certain point, ownership is going to look at any one of the about 6 unserved US markets that are way larger, and say to themselves "I' definitely be making more money if I just moved to Salt Lake/Houston/Portland/KC/Atlanta/Milwaukee."

Anyone of those markets could enrich and owner more easily and more consistently than Winnipeg, and that's the sad truth.

And yet Winnipeg is a far better option financially than a overstuffed Milwaukee market you proposed elsewhere. Only 1.5 million people in Milwaukee (with 3 teams including the Packers) with a relatively small corporate base....and as we have seen time and time again the majority of ticket holders come from within an hours drive of the arena.

Salt Lake doesn't have an arena suitable for hockey and the population is the same as Calgary/Edmonton. Given the NBA occurs at the same time, it almost a certainty revenues would not be any higher than the current Winnipeg Jets. Anyways, it's more likely they will push for a MLB team as has been reported here - far too small for 3 teams. Baseball is more likely to succeed given the season happens outside the NBA schedule so less direct competition.

Atlanta's revenue doubled from 2011 to 2012 when they moved to Winnipeg. No reason to believe a future Atlanta team would become a high revenue team based on hope.

KC is smaller than Winnipeg and Edmonton put together and can barely handle two top-4 pro leagues as it is. Their baseball team typically draws some of the lowest crowds in baseball and they are usually bottom-3 or 4 in revenue. An NHL team there would further stress their situation and given the size of the community, it would likely be a lower revenue team. They would not be filling some strategic location as part of the overall footprint in the US either.

Portland is a decent sized city but not all that big and the population is no longer growing and since a hypothetical team would be competing for corporate and discretionary dollars against an NBA team playing at the exact same time, it's unlikely the revenue increase would be substantial, if it exists at all.

Houston could be an option but as has been publicly reported he was not willing the pay the going rate...and that was a few years ago, and the price has only increased dramatically. Right now, that city looks like the likely landing spot for Arizona if their arena deal falls through.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

And yet Winnipeg is a far better option financially than a overstuffed Milwaukee market you proposed elsewhere. Only 1.5 million people in Milwaukee (with 3 teams including the Packers) with a relatively small corporate base....and as we have seen time and time again the majority of ticket holders come from within an hours drive of the arena.

Says who? NHL did not go to MIlwaukee because they didn't at that time, have an arena.

Atlanta's revenue doubled from 2011 to 2012 when they moved to Winnipeg. No reason to believe a future Atlanta team would become a high revenue team based on hope.

Countless examples of good teams drawing fans and making money. Countless. Now will they be high revenue teams like Toronto or Boston? Probably not. But if Tampa and Dallas can do it, why not Atlanta?

KC is smaller than Winnipeg and Edmonton put together and can barely handle two top-4 pro leagues as it is. Their baseball team typically draws some of the lowest crowds in baseball and they are usually bottom-3 or 4 in revenue. An NHL team there would further stress their situation and given the size of the community, it would likely be a lower revenue team. They would not be filling some strategic location as part of the overall footprint in the US either.

I don't think thats true. Winnipeg and Edmonton put together doesn't hit 2 million people, and I think KC has more than that.

 

[Headshot77]

I was afraid of this. Winnipeg is by far the tiniest market still in the NHL. They're alright when the economy's good but when it hits the proverbial fan, it's an open question whether they can sustain. This is what killed the original Jets when the exchange rate went sour.

At a certain point you have to look at their situation dispassionately. Yes, getting the Jets back was a victory for Canada in a way, but the bottom line doesn't change. At a certain point, ownership is going to look at any one of the about 6 unserved US markets that are way larger, and say to themselves "I' definitely be making more money if I just moved to Salt Lake/Houston/Portland/KC/Atlanta/Milwaukee."

Anyone of those markets could enrich and owner more easily and more consistently than Winnipeg, and that's the sad truth.

Thankfully the owner now is a billionaire and has a lot of real estate in Winnipeg. Having an NHL team there elevates his real estate values. The Jets can operate as a loss leader and I wouldn't even see it as some kind of vanity project.

 

[Guy Legend]

KC is smaller than Winnipeg and Edmonton put together and can barely handle two top-4 pro leagues as it is. Their baseball team typically draws some of the lowest crowds in baseball and they are usually bottom-3 or 4 in revenue. An NHL team there would further stress their situation and given the size of the community, it would likely be a lower revenue team. They would not be filling some strategic location as part of the overall footprint in the US either.

Other way around on this one. KC metro area (2.4) in population is about Edmonton (1.4) and Winnipeg (800k) combined.

 

[Jets4Life]

Under current ownership I agree.

If Thompson ever sells the team who knows, but that;s not gonna happen until either he passes or he's too old I imagine, And by then Winnipeg might have grown enough to not have to worry about it. I've been saying safe benchmark is 1 million people in the metro area.

David Thomson is 65. So he will probably live for another 20 years hopefully. The Winnipeg metro area as of today, is estimated to be 890,000 people. Depending on the year, Winnipeg has been growing on average by slightly more than 10,000 people a year since 2009. Winnipeg should technically hit 1,000,000 people by 2033-34. Winnipeg can even eclipse Buffalo by 2045.

 

[Jets4Life]

Says who? NHL did not go to MIlwaukee because they didn't at that time, have an arena.

Milwaukee was definitely discussed in the early 90s as a top expansion city. The Bradley Center was built in 1987, and at the time, one of the better arena for hockey in the United States.

I don't think thats true. Winnipeg and Edmonton put together doesn't hit 2 million people, and I think KC has more than that.

As of 2022, Edmonton has 1.48 million people and Winnipeg has 875,000 people. Combines, they are well north of 2 million.

 

[Jets4Life]

Very easy to be part of a crowd when you don't have to pay (or pay a token fee).

What on Earth are you talking about? To be admitted to the Stret Party, one has to buy a ticket. Unless I am mistaken, tickets are $20 each, and capped off at 5,000 people.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Milwaukee was definitely discussed in the early 90s as a top expansion city. The Bradley Center was built in 1987, and at the time, one of the better arena for hockey in the United States.



As of 2022, Edmonton has 1.48 million people and Winnipeg has 875,000 people. Combines, they are well north of 2 million.

I thought you were talking about why Thrashers did not move to Milwaukee.

Interesting. Good to see Edmonton and Winnipeg are growing, rather than population growth being concentrated in GTA, and Montreal.

 

[tucker3434]

Atlanta's revenue doubled from 2011 to 2012 when they moved to Winnipeg. No reason to believe a future Atlanta team would become a high revenue team based on hope.

That’s not exactly fair. If Winnipeg moved back to Atlanta today, there would also be a spike in attendance and revenue. That’s just how those types of moves work.

No, Atlanta would never be a top revenue team. They don’t really need to be. There’s no reason Atlanta couldn’t be a Nashville+ and sit mid-pack in the short term. We have the same demographics that go to Predators games and in greater numbers. All that would be required is some occasional playoff hockey.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Doesn’t look like much of an attendance problem to me today…..




Think it gets to what someone mentioned way up thread about problem with the team’s customer service and how management treats its fans in general.

I've been watching the game and thinking the same thing. Take a look at the outside shots. Incredible crowd.

Well....it would be a bigger story if they didn't sell out for a playoff game. It's really a reminder that the team that's having regular season attendance issues is actually a good team and really shouldn't have problems selling out a 15K arena.

To play devil's advocate, I always roll my eyes when I see a Thrashers fan post a pic of one of the two home playoff games Atlanta ever had to show that there weren't attendance issues, here (which I agree with, just not the best example). Yes, it was filled to the rafters and loud, but it was the playoffs.