Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[BMN]

Well....it would be a bigger story if they didn't sell out for a playoff game. It's really a reminder that the team that's having regular season attendance issues is actually a good team and really shouldn't have problems selling out a 15K arena.

To play devil's advocate, I always roll my eyes when I see a Thrashers fan post a pic of one of the two home playoff games Atlanta ever had to show that there weren't attendance issues, here (which I agree with, just not the best example). Yes, it was filled to the rafters and loud, but it was the playoffs.

I agree with you that the '06 playoff game picture (there's obviously more than one but you know *the one*) is an overused trope by a lot of pro-Atlanta folk. The "anti-MARKETZZZZZZ"/"Tradition!" crowd can easily parry that by pointing not to Winnipeg's sold out Games 3/4 but the # of people willing to pay to sit *outside of the arena* because there's that much of a buzz surrounding the team. Most fans I know usually assume any NHL playoff game will either sell out or at least come close enough so as not to tell the difference on television.

Being the resident Canadian-in-Atlanta as long as I was, I know what impressed my friends back home about Nashville's 2017 run wasn't the crowds *inside* the building but rather the crowds on Broadway *outside* of the building.

 

[TheLegend]

Well....it would be a bigger story if they didn't sell out for a playoff game. It's really a reminder that the team that's having regular season attendance issues is actually a good team and really shouldn't have problems selling out a 15K arena.

To play devil's advocate, I always roll my eyes when I see a Thrashers fan post a pic of one of the two home playoff games Atlanta ever had to show that there weren't attendance issues, here (which I agree with, just not the best example). Yes, it was filled to the rafters and loud, but it was the playoffs.

Agreed. It isn't much different here in Arizona with all four pro teams. Playoffs sell.

In Winnipeg's case, (and based on a few posts from fans way up thread), their recent attendance issue looks to be more of an every day communication problem between the team and it's fans.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Bigger? Sure.

More money to be made? Probably.

Larger media market? Of course.

But sexy? SEXY? I'm sorry man, I have to give the "more sexy" title to Quebec City in a landslide.

This is the first time I’ve ever seen anyone make this statement.

Atlanta has the food, music culture, endless sports options, different cultural festivals.. I don’t know if I could say the same with Quebec City.

Plus - the weather being in the south makes it more attractive than the cold, sorry.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sad story.

Darren started Jetsowner.com in 2003. Seemed like a good guy. Met him in 2005.

I was a member of Jetsowner from 2005-09. By 2009, I guess his ego may have become inflated. My friend had held a street hockey tournamnt in spring 2009, to bring awareness to the return of the Jets, as a seperate entity of Jetsowner.com. Ford pretty much had the opinion "you have to go through me first, as I am the only credible person with a grassroots movement to bring back the Jets."

I applaud Darren for starting a website dedicated to us "dreamers" at the time. But it just seemed like his ego got the best of him later on. Such a shame..

Last I heard, Darren was banned from Twitter. I recall that he owns a wine making shop.

Some internet forum administrators are amongst the most ego-filled and power-hungry people I have ever seen. I'm just glad people like that are only just dishing out site bans or whatever on rando internet sites and not in charge of governments...

 

[Jets4Life]

Some internet forum administrators are amongst the most ego-filled and power-hungry people I have ever seen. I'm just glad people like that are only just dishing out site bans or whatever on rando internet sites and not in charge of governments...

Not to sway too much off-topic, but this thread sives you an indication of the mindset he was in at the time. (sorry the forum will not let me link to the site).

https://jetshockeyforum.:eek::eek::...::eek:.com/thread/1418/hello-darren-jetstream

I honestly think Darren is a good guy, who unfortunately got a false sense of his importance from around 2009-12. It's not the worst thing a person can do, and he seemed humbled by it years later. I followed him on twitter, and I actually enjoyed his opinions.

 

[garbageteam]

Everyone involved in the team ownership would want more fans to buy-in whether they can actually pay for the losses or not.

David Thomson is an exceptionally wealthy individual - 23rd wealthiest in the entire world - and was instrumental in bringing the Jets back originally. If finances is the final obstacle in whether the team moves or not, I highly doubt he will allow it to happen. It would be chump change for him to float the team for decades as long as he is alive. His net worth is north of $52 billion. Relocation really shouldn't be on the cards, there are bigger sharks circling the water for Ottawa or even Calgary than Winnipeg.

By the time he passes the current Jets will likely have been around for 30 years and become a well-established and entrenched team in the league; one that the league would, I presume, fight hard to keep there. Relocated teams in the NHL typically haven't been around that long in its history. Winnipeg will also be likely at least a 1M city, if not closer to 1.2M by then with how fast population is growing in the country.

This is a non-story and only on HFBoards would you see anyone postulate the team is in danger of moving anytime soon.

 

[jonathan613]

Everyone involved in the team ownership would want more fans to buy-in whether they can actually pay for the losses or not.

David Thomson is an exceptionally wealthy individual - 23rd wealthiest in the entire world - and was instrumental in bringing the Jets back originally. If finances is the final obstacle in whether the team moves or not, I highly doubt he will allow it to happen. It would be chump change for him to float the team for decades as long as he is alive. His net worth is north of $52 billion. Relocation really shouldn't be on the cards, there are bigger sharks circling the water for Ottawa or even Calgary than Winnipeg.

By the time he passes the current Jets will likely have been around for 30 years and become a well-established and entrenched team in the league; one that the league would, I presume, fight hard to keep there. Relocated teams in the NHL typically haven't been around that long in its history. Winnipeg will also be likely at least a 1M city, if not closer to 1.2M by then with how fast population is growing in the country.

This is a non-story and only on HFBoards would you see anyone postulate the team is in danger of moving anytime soon.

My understanding is that Mark Chipman is the owner of the jets-not David Thomson. Presumably then for thomson to "not allow it to happen" as you state above, you mean that he and the NHL would force chipman to sell in the event chipman wanted to relocate? Anyway in the link below there is a paragraph that says

"Thomson investments include, according to Forbes, part-ownership of the Winnipeg Jets, a piece of the Montreal Canadiens, a stake in telecom giant Bell Canada, vast real estate, and ownership of the Globe and Mail, where Thomson also serves as chair"

Are you sure his loyalty is to winnipeg and not canada? Presumably could he be interested in the event the jets do not do well in their local market in relocating them to either quebec or hamilton? The article below seems to indicate that he does not speak publicly that much

Who's David Thomson? A peek into the mysterious, 'reluctant' head of Canada's richest family

The reclusive Thomson is probably most known for his world-class art collection — and the gossipy details of his divorces

financialpost.com

 

[Yukon Joe]

My understanding is that Mark Chipman is the owner of the jets-not David Thomson. Presumably then for thomson to "not allow it to happen" as you state above, you mean that he and the NHL would force chipman to sell in the event chipman wanted to relocate? Anyway in the link below there is a paragraph that says

"Thomson investments include, according to Forbes, part-ownership of the Winnipeg Jets, a piece of the Montreal Canadiens, a stake in telecom giant Bell Canada, vast real estate, and ownership of the Globe and Mail, where Thomson also serves as chair"

Are you sure his loyalty is to winnipeg and not canada? Presumably could he be interested in the event the jets do not do well in their local market in relocating them to either quebec or hamilton? The article below seems to indicate that he does not speak publicly that much

Who's David Thomson? A peek into the mysterious, 'reluctant' head of Canada's richest family

The reclusive Thomson is probably most known for his world-class art collection — and the gossipy details of his divorces

financialpost.com

Both Chipman and Thomson are partners in TNSE, the corporate owners of the Jets.

Who owns how much of what has never been disclosed. Because Chipman's family business is a string of auto dealerships, and Thomson's family business is a multi-billion dollar estate, I've always assumed that Chipman wasthe public face of the team, while Thomson was the majority, but silent, partner.

So on the negative, Thomson has virtually no connection to Winnipeg. At the time of the move he said something about coming to Winnipeg as a young man as part of his business and being impressed with the city, but that could be hookum.

Remember Thomson is titled - He's the Baron of Fleet, and I believe spends more time in London, UK than in Canada.

On the positive, at the press conference at the time the move was announced (I believe the only time Thomson has spoken publicly about the Jets) he spoke very nicely about how important the team was to the hopes and dreams of Winnipeg. And the handful of times he's been spotted with Chipman in the owner's box he looks pretty into it.

The Thomson's family holding company, Osmington, owned the land of the old Eatons building in downtown Winnipeg, which is the land that was ultimately used to build the CLC. Osmington (and also Chipman) now own a bunch of land/buildings in downtown. The value of that property has increased due to the presence of the Jets.

My own opinion? I doubt Thomson has any emotional attachment to the Jets. He's not some superfan-turned-owner who is willing to lose millions of dollars per year on the team. But his financial interests are intertwined with the team.

 

[jonathan613]

Both Chipman and Thomson are partners in TNSE, the corporate owners of the Jets.

Who owns how much of what has never been disclosed. Because Chipman's family business is a string of auto dealerships, and Thomson's family business is a multi-billion dollar estate, I've always assumed that Chipman wasthe public face of the team, while Thomson was the majority, but silent, partner.

So on the negative, Thomson has virtually no connection to Winnipeg. At the time of the move he said something about coming to Winnipeg as a young man as part of his business and being impressed with the city, but that could be hookum.

Remember Thomson is titled - He's the Baron of Fleet, and I believe spends more time in London, UK than in Canada.

On the positive, at the press conference at the time the move was announced (I believe the only time Thomson has spoken publicly about the Jets) he spoke very nicely about how important the team was to the hopes and dreams of Winnipeg. And the handful of times he's been spotted with Chipman in the owner's box he looks pretty into it.

The Thomson's family holding company, Osmington, owned the land of the old Eatons building in downtown Winnipeg, which is the land that was ultimately used to build the CLC. Osmington (and also Chipman) now own a bunch of land/buildings in downtown. The value of that property has increased due to the presence of the Jets.

My own opinion? I doubt Thomson has any emotional attachment to the Jets. He's not some superfan-turned-owner who is willing to lose millions of dollars per year on the team. But his financial interests are intertwined with the team.

Thanks for the info. FWIW, I am happy Winnipeg has a team. If I were building the NHL from scratch and had 32 invites Winnipeg would be one of them. I won't bore you with what my other 31 are here. I do think that post covid, people will have more luxury in moving to smaller cities where they can still work remotely. So hopefully in the future it can become a bigger market.

 

[MMC]

Guessing people won't be happy after a gentleman's sweep in the first round from one of the only teams newer than the Jets. Hope they make real changes

 

[Yukon Joe]

Guessing people won't be happy after a gentleman's sweep in the first round from one of the only teams newer than the Jets. Hope they make real changes

Trying to keep this to the business side...

Coach Bowness's press availability at the end of the game was HOT. He called out the players (though not by name) as lacking passion and push back, saying it's been going on since February.

A lot of key players are only under contract or team control for one more year: Schiefele, Wheeler, Dubois, Hellebuyck. It would be a whole different (and worse) team without those guys. There were lots of reports that Dubois and Scheifele asked for trades last summer. I believe the team hoped that with a successful season both could be persuaded to re-sign. Also worries that Hellebuyck might walk if the team isn't a contender.

So the smart thing may well be to trade those players while they still have value and do a rebuild.

But to go back to the original post - to what extent do worries about ticket sales require the Jets to try and ice a competitive team, even if it hurts the on-ice performance long term?

I'd like to think Winnipeg hockey fans are smart enough about the business of hockey - but you never know until it happens.

 

[MMC]

Trying to keep this to the business side...

Coach Bowness's press availability at the end of the game was HOT. He called out the players (though not by name) as lacking passion and push back, saying it's been going on since February.

A lot of key players are only under contract or team control for one more year: Schiefele, Wheeler, Dubois, Hellebuyck. It would be a whole different (and worse) team without those guys. There were lots of reports that Dubois and Scheifele asked for trades last summer. I believe the team hoped that with a successful season both could be persuaded to re-sign. Also worries that Hellebuyck might walk if the team isn't a contender.

So the smart thing may well be to trade those players while they still have value and do a rebuild.

But to go back to the original post - to what extent do worries about ticket sales require the Jets to try and ice a competitive team, even if it hurts the on-ice performance long term?

I'd like to think Winnipeg hockey fans are smart enough about the business of hockey - but you never know until it happens.

I would think they would, but honestly, it's hard for me to believe that my Ducks had nearly a 1,000 higher attendance on average last season than the Jets did, when the Ducks have been rebuilding for several years now and the Jets haven't started theirs. They already barely edged out the Sharks for being the lowest drawing teams (not counting Arizona)

 

[TheLegend]

Trying to keep this to the business side...

Coach Bowness's press availability at the end of the game was HOT. He called out the players (though not by name) as lacking passion and push back, saying it's been going on since February.

A lot of key players are only under contract or team control for one more year: Schiefele, Wheeler, Dubois, Hellebuyck. It would be a whole different (and worse) team without those guys. There were lots of reports that Dubois and Scheifele asked for trades last summer. I believe the team hoped that with a successful season both could be persuaded to re-sign. Also worries that Hellebuyck might walk if the team isn't a contender.

So the smart thing may well be to trade those players while they still have value and do a rebuild.

But to go back to the original post - to what extent do worries about ticket sales require the Jets to try and ice a competitive team, even if it hurts the on-ice performance long term?

I'd like to think Winnipeg hockey fans are smart enough about the business of hockey - but you never know until it happens.

Have to wonder if the fans are seeing the same thing as what Rick Bowness talked about and it’s translating into the ticket sales?

 

[Jedub]

I'm sure the bottom line was also completely different for the Winnipeg Jets 1.0 until economic reality caught up with them.

I didn't expect my post to make me very popular, but a t a certain point the city of Winnipeg needs to understand that they're fighting an uphill battle to keep the Jets. American money is a powerful lure.

You should go and actually read about the economics with Jets 1.0. Then you'll be sure that there's no comparison or reason for alarm with 2.0.

Have to wonder if the fans are seeing the same thing as what Rick Bowness talked about and it’s translating into the ticket sales?

this is exactly it. The fans have been seeing this for 6-7 years now (I've lost count).

 

[Jedub]

My understanding is that Mark Chipman is the owner of the jets-not David Thomson. Presumably then for thomson to "not allow it to happen" as you state above, you mean that he and the NHL would force chipman to sell in the event chipman wanted to relocate? Anyway in the link below there is a paragraph that says

"Thomson investments include, according to Forbes, part-ownership of the Winnipeg Jets, a piece of the Montreal Canadiens, a stake in telecom giant Bell Canada, vast real estate, and ownership of the Globe and Mail, where Thomson also serves as chair"

Are you sure his loyalty is to winnipeg and not canada? Presumably could he be interested in the event the jets do not do well in their local market in relocating them to either quebec or hamilton? The article below seems to indicate that he does not speak publicly that much

Who's David Thomson? A peek into the mysterious, 'reluctant' head of Canada's richest family

The reclusive Thomson is probably most known for his world-class art collection — and the gossipy details of his divorces

financialpost.com

Thomson would never sink his time or money into something like a Winnipeg NHL franchise if it could move so easily. Why go through all the effort when he can do whatever he likes with his money? The Jets were baked into a business plan that included guard rails for when the team itself is struggling to draw. The only way the Jets move is if the entire TNSE downtown enterprise fails and they have to sell assets.

 

[Jets4Life]

Thomson would never sink his time or money into something like a Winnipeg NHL franchise if it could move so easily. Why go through all the effort when he can do whatever he likes with his money? The Jets were baked into a business plan that included guard rails for when the team itself is struggling to draw. The only way the Jets move is if the entire TNSE downtown enterprise fails and they have to sell assets.

TNSE owns so much property in downtown Winnipeg, that even if the Jets were to lose $5-10 million/year, it would be a tax write off for them. Thomson did not become arguably the richest man in Canada, by investing in a money-losing hockey franchise. TNSE has made a fortune in the last decade in the real estate market.

 

[Jedub]

TNSE owns so much property in downtown Winnipeg, that even if the Jets were to lose $5-10 million/year, it would be a tax write off for them. Thomson did not become arguably the richest man in Canada, by investing in a money-losing hockey franchise. TNSE has made a fortune in the last decade in the real estate market.

I heard they want to buy Portage Place too. If that's true the whole downtown area is going to become TNSE's company town.

 

[Yukon Joe]

this is exactly it. The fans have been seeing this for 6-7 years now (I've lost count).

It was only 5 years ago that the Jets were in the conference final (and lost to the same Golden Knights by the same 4-1 series).

The malaise fans have complained about only started after that. I would point to the start of the 2019 season when Byfuglien failed to show up. The locker room's never been the same since.

 

[Jedub]

It was only 5 years ago that the Jets were in the conference final (and lost to the same Golden Knights by the same 4-1 series).

The malaise fans have complained about only started after that. I would point to the start of the 2019 season when Byfuglien failed to show up. The locker room's never been the same since.

Feels longer. My next jersey is going to say "DISGUSTED".

 

[tucker3434]

Have to wonder if the fans are seeing the same thing as what Rick Bowness talked about and it’s translating into the ticket sales?

They’re still a playoff team and we’re only talking about a 15k arena. I’d agree that this core isn’t going anywhere significant. But they shouldn’t need to be a cup contender to pack that arena out. What happens if they become an Ottawa or Buffalo and have to deal with multiple years of truly terrible aimless bottom-feeding?

 

[TheLegend]

They’re still a playoff team and we’re only talking about a 15k arena. I’d agree that this core isn’t going anywhere significant. But they shouldn’t need to be a cup contender to pack that arena out. What happens if they become an Ottawa or Buffalo and have to deal with multiple years of truly terrible aimless bottom-feeding?

Every team has up and downs. Fans who understand this won't walk away if they see the players on the ice put an honest effort in.

 

[tucker3434]

Every team has up and downs. Fans who understand this won't walk away if they see the players on the ice put an honest effort in.

Yeah, but where is Winnipeg's floor? We shouldn't be there yet, and that's a bit concerning. Anaheim won half as many games as Winnipeg and still averaged almost 1k more people.

They an average team. They should have average attendance, which in their case would be a sellout.

 

[Jedub]

Yeah, but where is Winnipeg's floor? We shouldn't be there yet, and that's a bit concerning. Anaheim won half as many games as Winnipeg and still averaged almost 1k more people.

They an average team. They should have average attendance, which in their case would be a sellout.

You can't compare raw numbers when Anaheim's arena seats 3000 more than ours.
And for the umpteenth time, there is no financial basis for the Jets moving when you look at TNSE's whole portfolio.

 

[tucker3434]

You can't compare raw numbers when Anaheim's arena seats 3000 more than ours.
And for the umpteenth time, there is no financial basis for the Jets moving when you look at TNSE's whole portfolio.

That only matters when Winnipeg is selling out. Anaheim was under 15k average attendance this year. Winnipeg could've beaten it even will a smaller arena. Can't blame the arena for that one.

Never said the Jets were moving. Low attendance is a component of a relocation, but there are others that are equally or more important.

 

[Jedub]

That only matters when Winnipeg is selling out. Anaheim was under 15k average attendance this year. Winnipeg could've beaten it even will a smaller arena. Can't blame the arena for that one.

Never said the Jets were moving. Low attendance is a component of a relocation, but there are others that are equally or more important.

It's an irrelevant comparison. It's like me saying "Winnipeg ONLY beat anaheim by 500 avg attendance, what a shitshow!" when we're selling out every night.