Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[rsteen]

Surprised that Ottawa's French broadcast is significantly more popular than the English. Isn't Ottawa-Gatineau metro about 50% each?

 

[93LEAFS]

Surprised that Ottawa's French broadcast is significantly more popular than the English. Isn't Ottawa-Gatineau metro about 50% each?

The sliver of Ontario that Ottawa gets for home broadcasts isn't very big, whereas they agreed with the Habs to share territorial rights for viewership, so they get all of Quebec. Leafs wouldn't agree to split the province, so anything West of Belleville in Ontario is Leafs territory until like Thunder Bay (which Leafs share with the Jets until the Manitoba border). This means that Ottawa is possibly getting a decent portion of viewers just to watch a game rather than it being about watching Ottawa. Due to this, Ottawa has a much larger chance of getting viewership in Quebec. Leafs basically decided they'd rather lose access to the East of Belleville market while not giving Ottawa access to the rest of the province (mainly the densly populated Golden Horseshoe), whereas the Habs felt it was important to keep the Gaineau/western Quebec market. Leading to this situation.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Assuming those numbers are correct, along with the Ottawa French/English split that 93LEAFS already provided an explanation for, the thing that stands out most are the prairie numbers. If I had to guess I would have thought the order would have been Oilers, Flames, Jets. I would have also thought there would have been a decent gap between the Alberta teams and Winnipeg. Given the size of the market, the Winnipeg number is bananas.

 

[Reaser]

Assuming those numbers are correct, along with the Ottawa French/English split that 93LEAFS already provided an explanation for, the thing that stands out most are the prairie numbers. If I had to guess I would have thought the order would have been Oilers, Flames, Jets. I would have also thought there would have been a decent gap between the Alberta teams and Winnipeg. Given the size of the market, the Winnipeg number is bananas.

For a second source on those #s: Télévision | Le Canadien est le plus populaire au pays

Like I said previously in this thread, Jets TSN3 numbers are underrated. In previous years numbers I've seen they were between 200-300k average.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Ya, those are big numbers regardless, but when you consider the market size on top of that...

 

[Jets4Life]

I am curious here if people think the jets fan base extends into Saskatchewan, since we are talking about market size in some of these posts. I have always wondered if the Jets have made a good business decision sharing the arena with the AHL moose. I would think they would do well playing their games in Saskatoon or Regina. In a perfect world Winnipeg would be considered the "local" team for saskatchewan, so when people advertise on jets forecasts, the games reach the widest possible audience. Unless edmonton and / or calgary are considered the dominant teams in SK, in which case please disregard this entire post as my uninformed rambling.

There was once a study done during the early 90s, and it came to the conclusion that 99% of Jets season ticket holders lived within a 30 minute drive of the city. So even though there are tons of Jets fans that live in Saskatchewan, hardly any will travel to the city to see a Jets game.

Having said that, Regina sold out their stadium for a Winnipeg vs Calgary outdoor game about 4 years ago. I seem to recall most Regina fans cheering for the Jets.

 

[Jets4Life]

Surprised that Ottawa's French broadcast is significantly more popular than the English. Isn't Ottawa-Gatineau metro about 50% each?

Ottawa has roughly 1.45 million people in their metro area. 1.1 million lived in Ontario, and roughly 350,000 people live in Quebec.

So over 3/4 of the Ottawa area is primarily English speaking.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

The last complete regional avg viewership #s that I have are from the shortened 2021 56-game season.

-2020/21 Average viewership for regional broadcasts-
1. Toronto 709k
2. Montreal (French) 622k
3. Winnipeg 306k
4. Edmonton 277k
5. Ottawa (French) 198k
6. Vancouver 192k
7. Calgary 171k
8. Montreal (English) 167k
9. Ottawa (English) 128k

I'm a little surprised that Habs are far away the most watched team, ahead of even the Leafs.

I'm also surprised that Edmonton is so far ahead of Calgary. I'm wondering if that's the McDavid effect.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

I'm a little surprised that Habs are far away the most watched team, ahead of even the Leafs.

I'm not. They're vastly overrated because of the media market they're in.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm a little surprised that Habs are far away the most watched team, ahead of even the Leafs.

I'm also surprised that Edmonton is so far ahead of Calgary. I'm wondering if that's the McDavid effect.

Keep in mind that's for the 2020-21 season. Calgary was pretty crap that year.

 

[Jets4Life]

I'm a little surprised that Habs are far away the most watched team, ahead of even the Leafs.

The Leafs are the #1 most watched team in Canada, assuming the circumstances were the same. If Toronto ever reached the Stanley Cup Final, it would break every NHL TV ratings record in history in Canada.

 

[jetsmooseice]

I am curious here if people think the jets fan base extends into Saskatchewan, since we are talking about market size in some of these posts. I have always wondered if the Jets have made a good business decision sharing the arena with the AHL moose. I would think they would do well playing their games in Saskatoon or Regina. In a perfect world Winnipeg would be considered the "local" team for saskatchewan, so when people advertise on jets forecasts, the games reach the widest possible audience. Unless edmonton and / or calgary are considered the dominant teams in SK, in which case please disregard this entire post as my uninformed rambling.

I'd wager that the Jets run number three in Saskatchewan for a number of reasons:

1) Continuity... the Oilers and the Flames have been around for a long time, while the Jets were gone for 15 years. So the Oilers and Flames have a well entrenched fanbase in Saskatchewan with people who have grown up watching and cheering for those teams.

2) Success... the Oilers have had McDavid for several years and are a legitimate cup contender. The Flames are, despite their struggles this season, usually fairly strong. Also, a lot of people grew up watching the Oilers and Flames hoist Stanley Cups and I think that plays into it too. By contrast, the Jets' WHA triumphs are a lot more distant and probably more obscure, I'm not sure if they would have even been televised outside the Winnipeg area the way that the Stanley Cup playoffs were in those days.

3) Cultural connections... Saskatchewan has typically had a much weaker economy than Alberta, so generations of people from there have moved to Alberta such that there are strong family ties between the provinces, people from Sask are used to visiting Alberta all the time,, attending NHL games there, etc. I think that sways people toward the Alberta teams.

4) Manitoba/Saskatchewan rivalries... the Blue Bombers and Roughriders are big-time CFL rivals and it can get pretty heated. It's probably tough to be bitter enemies on the football field, and then turn around cheer for the other's hockey team.

So the bottom line is that I don't think Saskatchewan matters all that much to the Jets other than maybe some very marginal ticket sales and TV viewership. The only time I ever see a noticeable Saskatchewan presence at Canada Life Centre is in March and April when there are spring hockey tournaments going on and teams from Saskatchewan are there in their regalia. Although I guess if the Jets moved the Moose to Saskatoon it probably would help bolster the franchise's presence in Saskatchewan, but probably only marginally. It's not like the Jets got a ton of Newfoundland fans when the Moose moved to St. John's in 2011.

Also, I appreciate what you are saying about the Manitoba Moose but the reality is that Regina and to a somewhat lesser extent Saskatoon have well entrenched junior hockey teams that have a ton of community goodwill. I don't think people in those communities would necessarily see it as a step up to give up their WHL teams for an AHL team. It doesn't help that the AHL doesn't have the greatest track record in terms of franchise stability... i.e., if you're in Regina, do you really want to give up the Pats for a Moose team that might stay in town for 7 or 8 years before moving on?

I guess if the AHL is going anywhere in Saskatchewan it would be Saskatoon for a variety of reasons... bigger town, bigger rink, the junior team means less to the community than the Pats do to Regina. But I certainly wouldn't expect it. And it may be that the WHL teams have exclusivity to their arenas anyway, which would prevent the AHL from coming in the first place unless the WHL owners granted permission on their terms.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I'd wager that the Jets run number three in Saskatchewan for a number of reasons:

1) Continuity... the Oilers and the Flames have been around for a long time, while the Jets were gone for 15 years. So the Oilers and Flames have a well entrenched fanbase in Saskatchewan with people who have grown up watching and cheering for those teams.

2) Success... the Oilers have had McDavid for several years and are a legitimate cup contender. The Flames are, despite their struggles this season, usually fairly strong. Also, a lot of people grew up watching the Oilers and Flames hoist Stanley Cups and I think that plays into it too. By contrast, the Jets' WHA triumphs are a lot more distant and probably more obscure, I'm not sure if they would have even been televised outside the Winnipeg area the way that the Stanley Cup playoffs were in those days.

3) Cultural connections... Saskatchewan has typically had a much weaker economy than Alberta, so generations of people from there have moved to Alberta such that there are strong family ties between the provinces, people from Sask are used to visiting Alberta all the time,, attending NHL games there, etc. I think that sways people toward the Alberta teams.

4) Manitoba/Saskatchewan rivalries... the Blue Bombers and Roughriders are big-time CFL rivals and it can get pretty heated. It's probably tough to be bitter enemies on the football field, and then turn around cheer for the other's hockey team.

So the bottom line is that I don't think Saskatchewan matters all that much to the Jets other than maybe some very marginal ticket sales and TV viewership. The only time I ever see a noticeable Saskatchewan presence at Canada Life Centre is in March and April when there are spring hockey tournaments going on and teams from Saskatchewan are there in their regalia. Although I guess if the Jets moved the Moose to Saskatoon it probably would help bolster the franchise's presence in Saskatchewan, but probably only marginally. It's not like the Jets got a ton of Newfoundland fans when the Moose moved to St. John's in 2011.

Also, I appreciate what you are saying about the Manitoba Moose but the reality is that Regina and to a somewhat lesser extent Saskatoon have well entrenched junior hockey teams that have a ton of community goodwill. I don't think people in those communities would necessarily see it as a step up to give up their WHL teams for an AHL team. It doesn't help that the AHL doesn't have the greatest track record in terms of franchise stability... i.e., if you're in Regina, do you really want to give up the Pats for a Moose team that might stay in town for 7 or 8 years before moving on?

I guess if the AHL is going anywhere in Saskatchewan it would be Saskatoon for a variety of reasons... bigger town, bigger rink, the junior team means less to the community than the Pats do to Regina. But I certainly wouldn't expect it. And it may be that the WHL teams have exclusivity to their arenas anyway, which would prevent the AHL from coming in the first place unless the WHL owners granted permission on their terms.

Yeah, I'd guess pretty confidently any AHL franchise that tried to make in-roads to Sask would get their asses kicked by WHL teams.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

I was at a luncheon for Bell CEO Mirko Birbic that was held by the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. Mark Chipman opened up the lunch and was really asking the business community of Winnipeg to step up. We have the lowest amount of season tickets purchased by businesses in the NHL. He was pretty forthright that everyone in the room has made a lot of money during and since the pandemic and that they need to step up and spend some of it.

Why should businesses be compelled to buy another business' product?

 

[joestevens29]

Why should businesses be compelled to buy another business' product?

The other thing is from day 1 when they went back to Winnipeg there were questions about the corporate support.

The fact of the matter is a lot of corporations have cut advertisement and customer entertainment since covid. Wasn't needed then to get work so they've continued with that path.

My company for one cut customer entertainment and found that investing in various community programs to be more beneficial. Reaching way more people that have helped us gain employees and work.

Really not sure what is going to happen in Winnipeg if they go into a rebuild.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Yeah, I'd guess pretty confidently any AHL franchise that tried to make in-roads to Sask would get their asses kicked by WHL teams.

Regina seems like a non-starter... smaller market, small old arena (that may get replaced, I know), extremely historic and well entrenched junior franchise.

I suppose it could work in Saskatoon, but only in alliance with the Blades' owners, the Priestners. It would have to involve them moving the Blades out of town and making the AHL club "Saskatoon's team". Saskatoon would probably in a better position to make it work being a larger city with a larger arena and a far less storied WHL team. But it seems to me that if they were in direct competition, the WHL would win as you point out.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Why should businesses be compelled to buy another business' product?

Not sure where you live, but the smaller market mindset is different from bigger cities. NHL teams aren't just entertainment sources. They frame the civic identity to some extent. There is a strong desire to maintain 'major league' status on a continental level, and the NHL is realistically the only path for Canadian cities besides Toronto to do that. So there is a feeling that if you want to be able to attract talent for your company, it is helpful if you have drawing cards like a NHL team. I think this is especially true for larger companies that have to compete for talent at a national level.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Why should businesses be compelled to buy another business' product?

Because they do in pretty much every other market

 

[ichbinkanadier]

The other thing is from day 1 when they went back to Winnipeg there were questions about the corporate support.

The fact of the matter is a lot of corporations have cut advertisement and customer entertainment since covid. Wasn't needed then to get work so they've continued with that path.

My company for one cut customer entertainment and found that investing in various community programs to be more beneficial. Reaching way more people that have helped us gain employees and work.

Really not sure what is going to happen in Winnipeg if they go into a rebuild.

I wonder if it would be to the benefit of individual fans if businesses stopped customer entertainment purchases; perhaps that would drive prices down.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Not sure where you live, but the smaller market mindset is different from bigger cities. NHL teams aren't just entertainment sources. They frame the civic identity to some extent. There is a strong desire to maintain 'major league' status on a continental level, and the NHL is realistically the only path for Canadian cities besides Toronto to do that. So there is a feeling that if you want to be able to attract talent for your company, it is helpful if you have drawing cards like a NHL team. I think this is especially true for larger companies that have to compete for talent at a national level.

I understand that perspective, but there's something pretentious about a billionaire owner asking other businesses to support his business. If he thinks civic identity is that important, take the financial losses as the cost of civic pride.

And I have yet to see or read any economist put forth a study that suggests a major pro sports team is a factor in people's decisions on where to work/live. NYC, LA, Toronto, Montreal....if they lost all their sports teams I doubt it would make them look like provincial outposts

To the casual fan, if a New York, LA, Chicago et al team is playing, they'd likely be more inclined to watch it than if Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Columbus or Ottawa was playing.

Ottawa is the capital of Canada and I still have to tell many Americans where it is, despite having that major e league team, the Senators. Montreal or Toronto? They've heard of it.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Because they do in pretty much every other market

So? You're simply stating what they do, not why they should be compelled by a billionaire owner to do.

To me your statement is no different than trying to guilt individual fans into buying tickets by saying they do in Toronto and Montreal.

 

[jetsmooseice]

I wonder if it would be to the benefit of individual fans if businesses stopped customer entertainment purchases; perhaps that would drive prices down.

It certainly would. But every market would have to get on board with that. If only one place refuses to pay the going rate, it loses the team. (Not the end of the world for me, I survived it once before quite painlessly.)

 

[joestevens29]

I wonder if it would be to the benefit of individual fans if businesses stopped customer entertainment purchases; perhaps that would drive prices down.

Drive the cap down too though. Kinda the reverse of what Bettman has been doing since coming to the NHL. The players and owners both want as much corporate support as possible.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

It certainly would. But every market would have to get on board with that. If only one place refuses to pay the going rate, it loses the team. (Not the end of the world for me, I survived it once before quite painlessly.)

If corporations couldn't write it off for tax purposes, would they be so inclined?

Drive the cap down too though. Kinda the reverse of what Bettman has been doing since coming to the NHL. The players and owners both want as much corporate support as possible.

Yeah. I was just thinking aloud though, not suggesting it. As a fan, it would be nice though. I'm OK with NHL players making an average of $2 million instead of $3.5 million.

Having said that, I don't begrudge a business doing what a business is going to do to be a profitable one.

 

[Soundwave]

I think they'll be OK in the long run. It feels like for whatever reason COVID before/after really hit certain groups hard in the prairie provinces and there needed to be some time for things to get back to normal.