Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Have to wonder if the fans are seeing the same thing as what Rick Bowness talked about and it’s translating into the ticket sales?

I think so, but I soured on this core last year, so I'm biased against them.

 

[tucker3434]

It's an irrelevant comparison. It's like me saying "Winnipeg ONLY beat anaheim by 500 avg attendance, what a shitshow!" when we're selling out every night.

Again, when Winnipeg is selling out, it's a different story. Because then we don't know where the actual demand is. Could be 15k, could be 20k. Basically impossible to prove which. But when they dip below sellout, we know exactly where that demand is, so it is relevant.

 

[Jedub]

Again, when Winnipeg is selling out, it's a different story. Because then we don't know where the actual demand is. Could be 15k, could be 20k. Basically impossible to prove which. But when they dip below sellout, we know exactly where that demand is, so it is relevant.

It's totally irrelevant to compare them to a market with a larger arena and complain about attendance numbers. If Anaheim was the biggest thing for three provinces & 3 states is like WPG is then Anaheim's arena would be even emptier.

The demand is obviously less than 15K right now, or they would be selling out.
When the team is not a soap opera, and/or the economy gets better attendance will go up.
It's really not concerning at all.

 

[Reaser]

It's totally irrelevant to compare them to a market with a larger arena and complain about attendance numbers. If Anaheim was the biggest thing for three provinces & 3 states is like WPG is then Anaheim's arena would be even emptier.

The demand is obviously less than 15K right now, or they would be selling out.
When the team is not a soap opera, and/or the economy gets better attendance will go up.
It's really not concerning at all.

Viewership should always be included in the numbers, too. Attendance is only part of the pie. Depending on the year, the Jets hilariously have between 500% to 1,500% more regional average viewership over what the Ducks local/RSN average viewership is. And national broadcasts, obviously Jets do significantly better in Canada and in the U.S. it's a wash, as neither Jets or Ducks move the needle.

Jets TSN3 viewership is underrated.

 

[tucker3434]

It's totally irrelevant to compare them to a market with a larger arena and complain about attendance numbers. If Anaheim was the biggest thing for three states like WPG is then Anaheim would be selling a lot less than 14k tickets.

The demand is obviously less than 15K right now, or they would be selling out.
When the team is not a soap opera, and/or the economy gets better attendance will go up.
So really not concerning at all.

Compare them with any market with an NHL team. That's their competition. It's a gate-driven league and revenues aren't given out on a per capita basis.

Ownership is clearly a little bit concerned. I'm sure they thought they'd sell out forever and that's how they've modeled their budgeting/forecasting. There's obviously nothing imminent there, but it's something to keep an eye on. That's not a team that appears to be taking the next step in the near future. Who knows where the economy is going. If they aren't a 15k team pretty consistently, it'll cause them problems eventually.

 

[Jedub]

Compare them with any market with an NHL team. That's their competition. It's a gate-driven league and revenues aren't given out on a per capita basis.

Ownership is clearly a little bit concerned. I'm sure they thought they'd sell out forever and that's how they've modeled their budgeting/forecasting. There's obviously nothing imminent there, but it's something to keep an eye on. That's not a team that appears to be taking the next step in the near future. Who knows where the economy is going. If they aren't a 15k team pretty consistently, it'll cause them problems eventually.

The Jets do not compete with other teams for ticket sales.

If they modeled their budgeting on sell-outs for decades even when the team is doing crappy then they're bad businesspeople and David Thomson was a fool to put his money there. There's a 0% chance that's the case.

The concern is about corporate tickets. We only have 15% of our tickets going to corporate and the next lowest in Canada is 40%.

The Jets are going nowhere.

 

[tucker3434]

The Jets do not compete with other teams for ticket sales.

If they modeled their budgeting on sell-outs for decades even when the team is doing crappy then they're bad businesspeople and David Thomson was a fool to put his money there. There's a 0% chance that's the case.

The concern is about corporate tickets. We only have 15% of our tickets going to corporate and the next lowest in Canada is 40%.

The Jets are going nowhere.

The Jets ultimately compete with other teams for franchise valuations, and over time, owners have to decide whether their money is in the right place. I don't care how wealthy they are, they still want to make some money, preferably, more than anyone else.

It's a 15k seat arena. At capacity, they're still bottom 5 in attendance, so the numbers barely make sense as it is unless you can charge 20% more than average, which they can't. Most teams are able to pull 15k+ fans in the down years, and I'm sure the Jets ownership thought they would too.

Lacking corporate support is also a bit of a red flag.

The Jets are going nowhere anytime soon. The question is, if they're put up for sale in 10 years, what happens then? They'd have a 30 year old arena. If these attendance/corporate support issues wind up being more than just bump in the road, you can see how things could go sideways. So, something to keep an eye on.

 

[Jedub]

The Jets ultimately compete with other teams for franchise valuations, and over time, owners have to decide whether their money is in the right place. I don't care how wealthy they are, they still want to make some money, preferably, more than anyone else.

It's a 15k seat arena. At capacity, they're still bottom 5 in attendance, so the numbers barely make sense as it is unless you can charge 20% more than average, which they can't. Most teams are able to pull 15k+ fans in the down years, and I'm sure the Jets ownership thought they would too.

Lacking corporate support is also a bit of a red flag.

The Jets are going nowhere anytime soon. The question is, if they're put up for sale in 10 years, what happens then? They'd have a 30 year old arena. If these attendance/corporate support issues wind up being more than just bump in the road, you can see how things could go sideways. So, something to keep an eye on.

The Jets don't compete with other teams for valuations. High valuations benefit the whole league.
You really don't understand the situation in Winnipeg but you're welcome to keep spitballing if you want.


The Jets are going nowhere in the next 2-3 decades. If ever.

This is all really reminiscent of arguing with people about the impossibilty of the Jets ever MOVING to Winnipeg.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The Jets do not compete with other teams for ticket sales.

If they modeled their budgeting on sell-outs for decades even when the team is doing crappy then they're bad businesspeople and David Thomson was a fool to put his money there. There's a 0% chance that's the case.

The concern is about corporate tickets. We only have 15% of our tickets going to corporate and the next lowest in Canada is 40%.

The Jets are going nowhere.

I would certainly not argue that David Thomson is a crappy businessman, but I'd certainly argue that both low attendance and the lack of corporate dollars is concerning to ownership. Bottom line, corporate or fans, they're having trouble selling tickets.

 

[Jedub]

I would certainly not argue that David Thomson is a crappy businessman, but I'd certainly argue that both low attendance and the lack of corporate dollars is concerning to ownership. Bottom line, corporate or fans, they're having trouble selling tickets.

They are, but so is every other team.
Winnipeg's corporate sector is a lot smaller than the other NHL cities. So it is a concern. It's why they're focusing on it.
This is why TNSE is buying up downtown Winnipeg, it's a portfolio. The Jets can be a loss leader for a while.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

They are, but so is every other team.
Winnipeg's corporate sector is a lot smaller than the other NHL cities. So it is a concern. It's why they're focusing on it.
This is why TNSE is buying up downtown Winnipeg, it's a portfolio. The Jets can be a loss leader for a while.

Every other team is having trouble selling tickets?

 

[Jedub]

Every other team is having trouble selling tickets?

Who hasn't had a reduction in ticket sales in the last few years?

 

[tucker3434]

The Jets don't compete with other teams for valuations. High valuations benefit the whole league.
You really don't understand the situation in Winnipeg but you're welcome to keep spitballing if you want.


The Jets are going nowhere in the next 2-3 decades. If ever.

This is all really reminiscent of arguing with people about the impossibilty of the Jets ever MOVING to Winnipeg.

Right, and Winnipeg's valuation isn't particularly high.

You're not doing anything to explain what makes Winnipeg different from any other sports franchise. I get that the current owners have no desire to sell or relocate. But all franchises are eventually sold and it’d be naive to think there would be a long line of buyers willing to keep the team in Winnipeg if they don’t work out their attendance issues and corporate support.

 

[Jets4Life]

It was only 5 years ago that the Jets were in the conference final (and lost to the same Golden Knights by the same 4-1 series).

The malaise fans have complained about only started after that. I would point to the start of the 2019 season when Byfuglien failed to show up. The locker room's never been the same since.

I would say it began earlier, in 2018-19. The Jets were in first place in the Conference, Laine scored something like 18 goals in November. Hockey writers were predicting that we won win the Cup. Then it fell apart after Christmas. Laine buckled, and scored maybe 5-6 goals in the second half of the year. Byfuglien was unhappy. Hellebuyck was not playing well. The team fell apart.

Buff losing his passion for the game, and retiring, was a warning sign that something was very dysfunctional behind the scenes. There was no way a team that stacked in 2018-19 should have caved in like that.

 

[Jets4Life]

Right, and Winnipeg's valuation isn't particularly high.

You're not doing anything to explain what makes Winnipeg different from any other sports franchise. I get that the current owners have no desire to sell or relocate. But all franchises are eventually sold and it’d be naive to think there would be a long line of buyers willing to keep the team in Winnipeg if they don’t work out their attendance issues and corporate support.

Winnipeg needs to improve the corporate support for the Jets. Citizens are being priced out of the market, and considering we are a small market, working class city, we can't keep relying on individuals or families to make up 85% of our season ticket base. The Business community needs to step up to the plate, to ensure the team is profitable.

 

[EpochLink]

Sad story.

Darren started Jetsowner.com in 2003. Seemed like a good guy. Met him in 2005.

I was a member of Jetsowner from 2005-09. By 2009, I guess his ego may have become inflated. My friend had held a street hockey tournamnt in spring 2009, to bring awareness to the return of the Jets, as a seperate entity of Jetsowner.com. Ford pretty much had the opinion "you have to go through me first, as I am the only credible person with a grassroots movement to bring back the Jets."

I applaud Darren for starting a website dedicated to us "dreamers" at the time. But it just seemed like his ego got the best of him later on. Such a shame..

Last I heard, Darren was banned from Twitter. I recall that he owns a wine making shop.

I was also a forum member of that website, I do recall some psycho hyper poster named ‘Blackthorne’ who threw every idea out there to generate income for the new team. He would get very defensive if another poster called out his bullshit and he would just get all up in his feelings.

That guy was just…yeah, nuts.

 

[Jets4Life]

I was also a forum member of that website, I do recall some psycho hyper poster named ‘Blackthorne’ who threw every idea out there to generate income for the new team. He would get very defensive if another poster called out his bullshit and he would just get all up in his feelings.

That guy was just…yeah, nuts.

I remember Blackthorne. lol...he was quite the character. I recall him trolling other forums, stating he was a proud member of Jetsowner.com, which didn't endear us to the hockey community.

 

[EpochLink]

I remember Blackthorne. lol...he was quite the character. I recall him trolling other forums, stating he was a proud member of Jetsowner.com, which didn't endear us to the hockey community.

I remember he was banned from the forums because he was pissing everyone off.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Who hasn't had a reduction in ticket sales in the last few years?

Are you sure you're in the right thread? The thread title, 2022-2023 attendance records, and Mark Chipman seem to suggest otherwise.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Jets are owned by TNSE, which is jointly owned by Chipman and Thompson. In terms of board seats, Thompson controls more than Chipman so he likely has a bigger stake. Chipman appears to be the face and sits on the board of governors, so he's the one that is "in charge" so to speak, but with board control, Thompson could more or less fire Chipman from his current position as Executive Chairman of the Winnipeg Jets if he wanted to.

With what looks like to be a rebuild coming, and the lack of corporate support due to Winnipeg's smaller business community, the Jets will likely be in for some lean years. As long as it remains a passion thing for Chipman with the backing of Thompson, I don't think a sell and relocate is on the table right now and TNSE may be OK eating losses on the whole thing.

The question becomes what happens down the line when Thompson passes and moves his holdings to his heirs, will they share the same passion for having a hockey team in Manitoba? What happens with Chipman at that point? As mentioned, the longer the Jets remain in Winnipeg the more firmly entrenched they are. More than likely a day will come where they will need a new Buyer, and at that point the question becomes if they can find one in Winnipeg.

The NHL isn't inclined to look for relocation, that's been the major trend of the last 20 years or so across North American sports leagues, but as we see with the Thrashers, Rams, Chargers, Raiders, Athletics... it's not a free ride forever. Winnipeg is nice in that it doesn't really cover off land that is covered by anybody's geographic area, so nobody is particularly inclined to want them out to capture that fanbase. On the other hand, as a small media market, any value that they add to the League's overall television deals in both U.S. and Canada is probably not going to be all that significant, and if an ownership group emerges with an arena ready in a larger media market, the NHL may not fight overly hard to find a new group in Winnipeg.

All of this appears to be a long ways away, as this report doesn't give any indication that Chipman's frustration with ticket sales is leading him to get cold feet over the whole prospect of continuing to own a team in Manitoba.

 

[jonathan613]

I am curious here if people think the jets fan base extends into Saskatchewan, since we are talking about market size in some of these posts. I have always wondered if the Jets have made a good business decision sharing the arena with the AHL moose. I would think they would do well playing their games in Saskatoon or Regina. In a perfect world Winnipeg would be considered the "local" team for saskatchewan, so when people advertise on jets forecasts, the games reach the widest possible audience. Unless edmonton and / or calgary are considered the dominant teams in SK, in which case please disregard this entire post as my uninformed rambling.

 

[MMC]

I am curious here if people think the jets fan base extends into Saskatchewan, since we are talking about market size in some of these posts. I have always wondered if the Jets have made a good business decision sharing the arena with the AHL moose. I would think they would do well playing their games in Saskatoon or Regina. In a perfect world Winnipeg would be considered the "local" team for saskatchewan, so when people advertise on jets forecasts, the games reach the widest possible audience. Unless edmonton and / or calgary are considered the dominant teams in SK, in which case please disregard this entire post as my uninformed rambling.

All 3 of the Flames, Oilers, and Jets share Saskatchewan as TV territory, right? Would be curious to know the viewership breakdown

 

[WarriorofTime]

I am curious here if people think the jets fan base extends into Saskatchewan, since we are talking about market size in some of these posts. I have always wondered if the Jets have made a good business decision sharing the arena with the AHL moose. I would think they would do well playing their games in Saskatoon or Regina. In a perfect world Winnipeg would be considered the "local" team for saskatchewan, so when people advertise on jets forecasts, the games reach the widest possible audience. Unless edmonton and / or calgary are considered the dominant teams in SK, in which case please disregard this entire post as my uninformed rambling.

Saskatoon is more than 8 hour drive from Winnipeg, Regina is about a 6 hour drive. Both are a bit too far for the Jets to be the "local" team. And if you put the Jets there instead of Winnipeg there, now it's back to Winnipeg not having a true local team, and Winnipeg is by far the biggest market of those three.

TV wise, they probably have their share of fans there along with the Oilers, Flames and legacy Original Six inherited fandoms. The Blackhawks have a surprisingly decent Saskatchewan-based fandom that dates back to the days of the Blackhawks being the western-most franchise. In general though, Saskatchewan only has about 1.2 million people, which is similar to Montana to its south, so it's probably not a huge factor in the NHL's thinking.

 

[jonathan613]

Saskatoon is more than 8 hour drive from Winnipeg, Regina is about a 6 hour drive. Both are a bit too far for the Jets to be the "local" team. And if you put the Jets there instead of Winnipeg there, now it's back to Winnipeg not having a true local team, and Winnipeg is by far the biggest market of those three.

TV wise, they probably have their share of fans there along with the Oilers, Flames and legacy Original Six inherited fandoms. The Blackhawks have a surprisingly decent Saskatchewan-based fandom that dates back to the days of the Blackhawks being the western-most franchise. In general though, Saskatchewan only has about 1.2 million people, which is similar to Montana to its south, so it's probably not a huge factor in the NHL's thinking.

noted-I was not suggesting the jets move to be clear. I was talking about the manitoba moose AHL team.

noted-I was not suggesting the jets move to be clear. I was talking about the manitoba moose AHL team.

one last thing: manitoba as a whole only has about 1.4 million people so sakatchewan could almost double that market.

 

[Reaser]

All 3 of the Flames, Oilers, and Jets share Saskatchewan as TV territory, right? Would be curious to know the viewership breakdown

The last complete regional avg viewership #s that I have are from the shortened 2021 56-game season.

-2020/21 Average viewership for regional broadcasts-
1. Toronto 709k
2. Montreal (French) 622k
3. Winnipeg 306k
4. Edmonton 277k
5. Ottawa (French) 198k
6. Vancouver 192k
7. Calgary 171k
8. Montreal (English) 167k
9. Ottawa (English) 128k