Winnipeg Jets: 11,226 Attendance tonight, cause for concern? What's going on in the 'Peg?

[Junohockeyfan]

Well, Mumbai has 20 million, so maybe we could put 2-3 teams there? Thoughts?

Yes, if Mumbai was in North America. But its not so its a dumb argument.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

Yes, if Mumbai was in North America. But its not so its a dumb argument.

How about Mexico City then?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

How about Mexico City then?

Sorry, i should have said US / Canada teams only. Give me a team in the US with a high population base and i will say yes, with the exception of Honolulu / Hawaii due to travel time.

That said, Mexico City would have a better chance at supporting an NHL team than Winnipeg!

What do you have against Houston? Tons of expats / noreasters in Houston. It is a more viable NHL city than Dallas.

 

[Canucks LB]

Its the state of the Canadian economy, We will see it appear 1st in the smaller market teams then move on to the bigger markets.
Its hard to spend the extra money when rent is almost double, bread 3 times as much etc.

This is incredibly true

 

[SniperOnTheWing]

Well, Mumbai has 20 million, so maybe we could put 2-3 teams there? Thoughts?

Bettman would love that. Think of the expansion fees they could charge!

 

[OldCraig71]

11k fans for a game is likely 3 times what Arizona gets and twice that of the Panthers.

 

[NVious]

Attendance won't increase when the team is losing all those seasons when they're rebuilding.

Depends on the prices, a rebuild is an inevitable part of every franchise, whether you want to delay it another 3-5 years and ride Helle and Schief into oblivion or do it now is up to the owners, but I can 100% guarantee you that Winnipeg will never win with this core. The difference between that and a rebuild is that a rebuild can potentially be a cup contender in 3-5 years, this team won't contend in the next 3-5 years and will just have to rebuild after that time anyways.

 

[Bond]

Depends on the prices, a rebuild is an inevitable part of every franchise, whether you want to delay it another 3-5 years and ride Helle and Schief into oblivion or do it now is up to the owners, but I can 100% guarantee you that Winnipeg will never win with this core. The difference between that and a rebuild is that a rebuild can potentially be a cup contender in 3-5 years, this team won't contend in the next 3-5 years and will just have to rebuild after that time anyways.

Same with the Flames but teams committed to an older core that will only go deep on a miracle run. Flames attendance will continue to sag as long as they are playing boring hockey with vets

 

[tbcwpg]

Depends on the prices, a rebuild is an inevitable part of every franchise, whether you want to delay it another 3-5 years and ride Helle and Schief into oblivion or do it now is up to the owners, but I can 100% guarantee you that Winnipeg will never win with this core. The difference between that and a rebuild is that a rebuild can potentially be a cup contender in 3-5 years, this team won't contend in the next 3-5 years and will just have to rebuild after that time anyways.

A rebuilding Canadian team is never going to be a Cup contender in 3-5 years.

It's not just the price keeping people away, there's lots of other reasons to stay home and watch it on TV instead. Losing a lot, even with lower prices, isn't going to do it.

Even then, that's still short term thinking. Maybe you drop prices a bit, maybe you make season tickets cheaper than they are now to bring more people back. What do you do when the team is better? "I know we just had $50 upper bowl tickets because the team was bad for awhile, but now that they're good, it's $100 again." Once you lower prices too much, you can't bring them back up again steeply.

You might be right about the core, but I see ownership's goal as a consistent playoff team than a boom or bust cycle contender.

 

[NVious]

A rebuilding Canadian team is never going to be a Cup contender in 3-5 years.

It's not just the price keeping people away, there's lots of other reasons to stay home and watch it on TV instead. Losing a lot, even with lower prices, isn't going to do it.

Even then, that's still short term thinking. Maybe you drop prices a bit, maybe you make season tickets cheaper than they are now to bring more people back. What do you do when the team is better? "I know we just had $50 upper bowl tickets because the team was bad for awhile, but now that they're good, it's $100 again." Once you lower prices too much, you can't bring them back up again steeply.

You might be right about the core, but I see ownership's goal as a consistent playoff team than a boom or bust cycle contender.

Toronto did it when they abandoned the perpetual retool.

It's not going to do it right now, but the funny thing is if you're against low attendance, what you are currently doing isn't working either, people are just not interested, they don't want to pay crazy prices to see a bunch of overpaid vets who are going nowhere fast, people would rather pay cheaper prices to watch a young team with heart.

If that's the goal, then so be it, but I thought the point was to win a cup, they'll never do that with this core. Anyways all teams go boom and bust, Detroit was a dynasty, then they sucked, Colarado was a dynasty then they sucked, New Jersey was a dynasty then they sucked.

Detroit tried their best to avoid a rebuild towards the end, but it just delayed things, same thing with Toronto post lockout, basically 10 years wasted being mediocre. Winnipeg's future in the next 3-5 years is 6 at best and 10 at worst, no man's land, not good enough to contend (at all), but not bad enough to get a top prospect.

I guess if the goal is just 2-3 extra games per year, then good for them, but Schief and Helle are only going to get older so soon that may come to an end too.

 

[tbcwpg]

Toronto did it when they abandoned the perpetual retool.

It's not going to do it right now, but the funny thing is if you're against low attendance, what you are currently doing isn't working either, people are just not interested, they don't want to pay crazy prices to see a bunch of overpaid vets who are going nowhere fast, people would rather pay cheaper prices to watch a young team with heart.

If that's the goal, then so be it, but I thought the point was to win a cup, they'll never do that with this core. Anyways all teams go boom and bust, Detroit was a dynasty, then they sucked, Colarado was a dynasty then they sucked, New Jersey was a dynasty then they sucked.

Detroit tried their best to avoid a rebuild towards the end, but it just delayed things, same thing with Toronto post lockout, basically 10 years wasted being mediocre. Winnipeg's future in the next 3-5 years is 6 at best and 10 at worst, no man's land, not good enough to contend (at all), but not bad enough to get a top prospect.

I guess if the goal is just 2-3 extra games per year, then good for them, but Schief and Helle are only going to get older so soon that may come to an end too.

Toronto is an exception to the Canadian rule.

We've had this debate on the Jets forum for over a year now. Do fans really want to pay to watch a young team play with heart? Fans say they support a rebuild but that doesn't come with buying tickets. When it's -25 degrees on a Tuesday night in January and the Columbus Blue Jackets are rolling into town, do you really want to go watch a scrappy young group lose 5-2 to go to 14 and 23 on the season up to that point? Rebuilding teams have low attendance. Attendance in Chicago was poor last year. Anaheim has struggled. San Jose is struggling. Buffalo had under 10k a night while they were playing "with heart" but losing.

I don't consider being a playoff team like Detroit, or Colorado in that era for 10+ years and being a contender for much of it as "boom and bust". Pittsburgh, Washington until recently, Nashville, all have been teams that have been consistently good over several years.

I don't believe, fundamentally, that small market teams should voluntarily rebuild their team when they have a chance to get into the playoffs a bit. Winnipeg doesn't have the lifestyle LA can offer, or the hot weather a Dallas or Florida can offer, or the history that a Boston or the Rangers can offer, or even a long term local history like a Detroit can offer. What they need to do to maintain any kind of reputation other than being a small market team that loses all the time, is telling players that, if you stick around with us here, we'll try to win each year. A team that has no short term future to win is never going to attract players, and it's also going to struggle heavily with keeping them once they get older and start to be a good team again.

I think the long-term benefit to keeping Scheifele and Hellebuyck now, just from an organizational standpoint, is greater than having moved them for a couple of late 1sts and prospects that might fill out a 3rd line. The team has some decent, not great, but decent prospects in the pipeline to fill in some gaps, and yeah, they won't be competitive probably for the full 7 years of the deal but they're showing the players they want to develop and keep around that they're willing to do whatever they can to win until there's no chance of that anymore.

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

Toronto is an exception to the Canadian rule.

We've had this debate on the Jets forum for over a year now. Do fans really want to pay to watch a young team play with heart? Fans say they support a rebuild but that doesn't come with buying tickets. When it's -25 degrees on a Tuesday night in January and the Columbus Blue Jackets are rolling into town, do you really want to go watch a scrappy young group lose 5-2 to go to 14 and 23 on the season up to that point? Rebuilding teams have low attendance. Attendance in Chicago was poor last year. Anaheim has struggled. San Jose is struggling. Buffalo had under 10k a night while they were playing "with heart" but losing.

I don't consider being a playoff team like Detroit, or Colorado in that era for 10+ years and being a contender for much of it as "boom and bust". Pittsburgh, Washington until recently, Nashville, all have been teams that have been consistently good over several years.

I don't believe, fundamentally, that small market teams should voluntarily rebuild their team when they have a chance to get into the playoffs a bit. Winnipeg doesn't have the lifestyle LA can offer, or the hot weather a Dallas or Florida can offer, or the history that a Boston or the Rangers can offer, or even a long term local history like a Detroit can offer. What they need to do to maintain any kind of reputation other than being a small market team that loses all the time, is telling players that, if you stick around with us here, we'll try to win each year. A team that has no short term future to win is never going to attract players, and it's also going to struggle heavily with keeping them once they get older and start to be a good team again.

I think the long-term benefit to keeping Scheifele and Hellebuyck now, just from an organizational standpoint, is greater than having moved them for a couple of late 1sts and prospects that might fill out a 3rd line. The team has some decent, not great, but decent prospects in the pipeline to fill in some gaps, and yeah, they won't be competitive probably for the full 7 years of the deal but they're showing the players they want to develop and keep around that they're willing to do whatever they can to win until there's no chance of that anymore.

This 100%

 

[NVious]

Toronto is an exception to the Canadian rule.

We've had this debate on the Jets forum for over a year now. Do fans really want to pay to watch a young team play with heart? Fans say they support a rebuild but that doesn't come with buying tickets. When it's -25 degrees on a Tuesday night in January and the Columbus Blue Jackets are rolling into town, do you really want to go watch a scrappy young group lose 5-2 to go to 14 and 23 on the season up to that point? Rebuilding teams have low attendance. Attendance in Chicago was poor last year. Anaheim has struggled. San Jose is struggling. Buffalo had under 10k a night while they were playing "with heart" but losing.

I don't consider being a playoff team like Detroit, or Colorado in that era for 10+ years and being a contender for much of it as "boom and bust". Pittsburgh, Washington until recently, Nashville, all have been teams that have been consistently good over several years.

I don't believe, fundamentally, that small market teams should voluntarily rebuild their team when they have a chance to get into the playoffs a bit. Winnipeg doesn't have the lifestyle LA can offer, or the hot weather a Dallas or Florida can offer, or the history that a Boston or the Rangers can offer, or even a long term local history like a Detroit can offer. What they need to do to maintain any kind of reputation other than being a small market team that loses all the time, is telling players that, if you stick around with us here, we'll try to win each year. A team that has no short term future to win is never going to attract players, and it's also going to struggle heavily with keeping them once they get older and start to be a good team again.

I think the long-term benefit to keeping Scheifele and Hellebuyck now, just from an organizational standpoint, is greater than having moved them for a couple of late 1sts and prospects that might fill out a 3rd line. The team has some decent, not great, but decent prospects in the pipeline to fill in some gaps, and yeah, they won't be competitive probably for the full 7 years of the deal but they're showing the players they want to develop and keep around that they're willing to do whatever they can to win until there's no chance of that anymore.

The only problem is that Winnipeg did what you wanted and they are still having issues with attendance, so where does someone like yourself go from here? No one's coming to Winnipeg nor can you get any truly game breaking talent drafting 18-25 every year.

My idea of a team is a team that progresses towards the cup or at least contention, not making the playoffs to get pumped every year, all the while you know the team can basically never win, but different strokes for different folks. Maybe 2-3 extra million every year from a few extra games does something (for the owners, obviously not the fans).

Toronto also isn't the exception since Edmonton did the same thing albeit even more extreme tanking and they are now a contender because of it

 

[Royale With Cheese]

Sorry, i should have said US / Canada teams only. Give me a team in the US with a high population base and i will say yes, with the exception of Honolulu / Hawaii due to travel time.

That said, Mexico City would have a better chance at supporting an NHL team than Winnipeg!

What do you have against Houston? Tons of expats / noreasters in Houston. It is a more viable NHL city than Dallas.

I don't have anything against Houston.

My point was simply that population does not link directly to attendance. Winnipeg is a pretty hockey crazy city and as others have noted, current attendance woes are attributed in good measure to inflation. Will full capacity return? I can't say for certain, but I do believe this is a short to medium term issue. It's definitely not related to a lack of interest.

 

[njdevil26]

Hockey is too expensive for people to spend money on unless they know their team is going to win.

When the Devils got good again this last season, ticket prices sky rocketed in the second half of the season. Typically you could get tickets for a Devils Sabres midweek game for $25 and sit in the lower level. Last season towards the end, the price was $150 just to get in the building. Everyone thinks in terms of "families of 4" so that's $600. $35 for parking. Then food costs $20 per person. Drinks are $8-20 per person.

Mix that in with the fact that especially in New Jersey, it is more expensive every day just to leave the house. I was driving around for work this weekend, never left NJ, paid $40 to fill my car up with gas and another $45 in tolls.

IF a family of 4 can stomach that for one night of hockey, how many times are they going to be able to do it?

Now that the team is good, there's new fans coming in the building every game to replace the ones that don't want to spend the money. When the teams are bad, you rely on the hardcore fans to keep coming back and too many people are getting priced out.


So I'm not 100% sure obviously... but the price of a game for a GOOD Devils team seems to be the base price for Winnipeg. So if the vibe around the team isn't great, fans are going to be asked to shell out crazy money in a bad economy for a luxury recreation experience.

It's going to happen everywhere.

A lot of teams are having problems. The crowd in Toronto is a hot button issue now. That team will sell out every game... but I have met people my age (I'm 36) that are lifelong Leafs fans who have been to like 5 games because it's always too expensive. That sounds nuts to me. Half the place is suits! Same in MSG. The reason Ranger fans take over Prudential Center is because these people can't afford the Garden on a regular basis.

Ticket prices don't drop when team performance does. Obviously, it should.

 

[Edgelord]

Toronto is an exception to the Canadian rule.

We've had this debate on the Jets forum for over a year now. Do fans really want to pay to watch a young team play with heart? Fans say they support a rebuild but that doesn't come with buying tickets. When it's -25 degrees on a Tuesday night in January and the Columbus Blue Jackets are rolling into town, do you really want to go watch a scrappy young group lose 5-2 to go to 14 and 23 on the season up to that point? Rebuilding teams have low attendance. Attendance in Chicago was poor last year. Anaheim has struggled. San Jose is struggling. Buffalo had under 10k a night while they were playing "with heart" but losing.

I don't consider being a playoff team like Detroit, or Colorado in that era for 10+ years and being a contender for much of it as "boom and bust". Pittsburgh, Washington until recently, Nashville, all have been teams that have been consistently good over several years.

I don't believe, fundamentally, that small market teams should voluntarily rebuild their team when they have a chance to get into the playoffs a bit. Winnipeg doesn't have the lifestyle LA can offer, or the hot weather a Dallas or Florida can offer, or the history that a Boston or the Rangers can offer, or even a long term local history like a Detroit can offer. What they need to do to maintain any kind of reputation other than being a small market team that loses all the time, is telling players that, if you stick around with us here, we'll try to win each year. A team that has no short term future to win is never going to attract players, and it's also going to struggle heavily with keeping them once they get older and start to be a good team again.

I think the long-term benefit to keeping Scheifele and Hellebuyck now, just from an organizational standpoint, is greater than having moved them for a couple of late 1sts and prospects that might fill out a 3rd line. The team has some decent, not great, but decent prospects in the pipeline to fill in some gaps, and yeah, they won't be competitive probably for the full 7 years of the deal but they're showing the players they want to develop and keep around that they're willing to do whatever they can to win until there's no chance of that anymore.

I kind of think you're looking at the issue on too small of a scale.
Sure sales would be better if the Jets were a .650 team but I suspect only slightly. Now that's not a comment on Jets fans wanting to go to the games but on their financial capability. In a tough economy, luxuries are always the 1st to go and in a small market like Winnipeg the fan pool is smaller so any time people have to tighten their purse strings, we will see it 1st in the Peg.
So I feel the lower ticket sales are not a reflection on their fans wanting to go but their ability to go.

 

[Bond]

I kind of think you're looking at the issue on too small of a scale.
Sure sales would be better if the Jets were a .650 team but I suspect only slightly. Now that's not a comment on Jets fans wanting to go to the games but on their financial capability. In a tough economy, luxuries are always the 1st to go and in a small market like Winnipeg the fan pool is smaller so any time people have to tighten their purse strings, we will see it 1st in the Peg.
So I feel the lower ticket sales are not a reflection on their fans wanting to go but their ability to go.

I don't watch a lot of Jets games but if they are playing boring games with vet heavy teams then it matters. I had a 1/4 share of tickets to the Flames least year and I couldn't give them away even when they were still in the playoff hunt because the product on the ice sucks. people have sooooooo many entertainment options these days and paying to watch a boring game isn't go to cut it.

 

[tbcwpg]

The only problem is that Winnipeg did what you wanted and they are still having issues with attendance, so where does someone like yourself go from here? No one's coming to Winnipeg nor can you get any truly game breaking talent drafting 18-25 every year.

My idea of a team is a team that progresses towards the cup or at least contention, not making the playoffs to get pumped every year, all the while you know the team can basically never win, but different strokes for different folks. Maybe 2-3 extra million every year from a few extra games does something (for the owners, obviously not the fans).

Toronto also isn't the exception since Edmonton did the same thing albeit even more extreme tanking and they are now a contender because of it

They traded Dubois for 3 roster players, it looks like they're hoping to move players who won't re-sign for players that will step in right away.

You're looking at it like a fan, which is fine, but the team's are also looking at it like a business. I suspect TNSE's internal projections of what the attendance would look like with a young rebuilding team is pretty bad if they're content to be in the 14-20 overall range.

Edmonton is a contender because of McDavid and a lucky lottery win, let's not fool ourselves here. They were aimless until McDavid came along, and they won the lottery of a lifetime to do so. Playing with the best in the world has its appeal and helps overcome some of the Edmonton factor.

I kind of think you're looking at the issue on too small of a scale.
Sure sales would be better if the Jets were a .650 team but I suspect only slightly. Now that's not a comment on Jets fans wanting to go to the games but on their financial capability. In a tough economy, luxuries are always the 1st to go and in a small market like Winnipeg the fan pool is smaller so any time people have to tighten their purse strings, we will see it 1st in the Peg.
So I feel the lower ticket sales are not a reflection on their fans wanting to go but their ability to go.

It's both, I think. A reporter locally recently did an informal poll and it was split between price and the team - some people didn't want to pay the higher prices to watch this team. Which, fair enough. I don't think fans want to see a losing team either. I'm sure at the end of a rebuild the fans would come back if the team was projecting upwards, but that's a long way away and a long time to have threads and discussions like this about Winnipeg's attendance.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

When it's -25 degrees on a Tuesday night in January and the Columbus Blue Jackets are rolling into town, do you really want to go watch a scrappy young group lose 5-2 to go to 14 and 23 on the season up to that point?

Yes, because as much as I want my team to win, I am also there to just enjoy NHL calibre hockey. A game against Columbus would mean Schiefele, KFC, Fantili, Werenski, etc. Lots of talent to enjoy.

Winnipeg is a smaller market, but imo, that can't be an excuse if they want to keep their team.

Did Winnipeg see a boom in residents from other provinces over the last few years, like NS and AB?

 

[tbcwpg]

Yes, because as much as I want my team to win, I am also there to just enjoy NHL calibre hockey. A game against Columbus would mean Schiefele, KFC, Fantili, Werenski, etc. Lots of talent to enjoy.

Winnipeg is a smaller market, but imo, that can't be an excuse if they want to keep their team.

Did Winnipeg see a boom in residents from other provinces over the last few years, like NS and AB?

No. There's been a large immigration boom though, but they're generally not too interested in hockey.

NHL calibre hockey doesn't have the same pull 12 years later that it did at the beginning. And a lot of people aren't going to know who Columbus has apart from Laine. There's a lot of Jets knowledge but not as much league wide knowledge.

I don't think the team is in any trouble relating to moving. They still outdraw other markets at higher prices and they own the arena, which was a big factor in why the Jets left in 96.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Its the state of the Canadian economy, We will see it appear 1st in the smaller market teams then move on to the bigger markets.
Its hard to spend the extra money when rent is almost double, bread 3 times as much etc.

Bang on.

Has a little to do with a stagnant team, but average folks don't have the cash flow to justify spending money to attend a game with a couple beers.

The standard of living has gone down in the last 5+ years, and its not shocking people are finding more ways to save. Only the rich, or people that live in a multi generational family home would say times aren't a hell of a lot tougher.

 

[JianYang]

Yes, if Mumbai was in North America. But its not so its a dumb argument.

Houston has been in the discussion for decades. But It takes a combination of three elements to hit at the same time to make it a reality.

1) a team is moving/expansion
2) a committed and extremely wealthy owner
3) a suitable rink

It's just that those three elements haven't lined up at the same time at a given point for Houston, but I think the logical assumption is that it's just a matter of time.

 

[pbgoalie]

There were no excuses allowed from some posters when any USA based team has had this same problem with attendance.

There are multiple issues that cause this

Money/costs
Culture/support determined by success
Competition from other venues

But as a hockey fan, a Canadian city turning away from NHL should be a pretty big WHOA! For the league that wants to raise cap and cost to watch or attend

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Is the whole city just sick of Chevy and the staleness of the organization? Why is attendance so low with Scheifele and Hellebuyck re-signing just recently? Always thought this market would never have any issues after getting them back in 2011.

Not trying to troll or flame, just a generalized concern for hockey there.

Stock Answer:

Portage and Main 50 Below.

 

[tucker3434]

I don't have anything against Houston.

My point was simply that population does not link directly to attendance. Winnipeg is a pretty hockey crazy city and as others have noted, current attendance woes are attributed in good measure to inflation. Will full capacity return? I can't say for certain, but I do believe this is a short to medium term issue. It's definitely not related to a lack of interest.

It does when it comes to filling seats in bad years. Corporate money and giant pool of casual fans that catch a game or two a year can keep things going at a reasonable pace until the on ice performance comes back around.