Confirmed with Link: Wings out of the bidding for Lecavalier, according to Khan (post #743)

[WingsOverAvs]

I was pointing out the difference because you implied that its something Holland never does.

We have no idea how many he's attempted to sign because you only hear about one if its agreed on between the player and the team. Also while Stewart is one of the RFA's I think you could actually get via an offersheet, to sign him to something St. Louis wouldn't match you're likely giving up a first, second and third round pick in a deep draft where we have a better pick than we've had in decades.

Personally I think Lecavalier is better in every way to Stewart, other than age.

He's bigger, hits more, is a more consistent scorer, better passer, better skater, has won a cup and wouldn't cost us draft picks to acquire

Both could be had and fit under the cap (as I provided above). Yes Stewart would cost picks.....and ideally thats not something you want to do. But, it does address a need. He's a young player and DET already has a logjam of prospects. Theyve managed to put themselves in a position where they could afford to lose a few picks. With DET's talent, Stewart could pot 30 a year.

 

[Bench]

Yes Stewart would cost picks.....

Really good picks. Plus a contract so inflated that St. Louis didn't want it.

But Flashy's point remains that Holland did try to offer sheet Weber, so he's willing if it's the right player. I doubt Stewart is the right player for that level of payment, even if he would upgrade the team in the immediate.

 

[pdd]

I was pointing out the difference because you implied that its something Holland never does.

We have no idea how many he's attempted to sign because you only hear about one if its agreed on between the player and the team. Also while Stewart is one of the RFA's I think you could actually get via an offersheet, to sign him to something St. Louis wouldn't match you're likely giving up a first, second and third round pick in a deep draft where we have a better pick than we've had in decades.

Assuming they retain or replace Filppula, the Wings are in excellent position for a top-two finish in their division. That puts them likely in the bottom ten picks, as usual.

An offer sheet would send 2014 pick, not 2013 picks.

 

[Bench]

Assuming they retain or replace Filppula, the Wings are in excellent position for a top-two finish in their division. That puts them likely in the bottom ten picks, as usual.

An offer sheet would send 2014 pick, not 2013 picks.

Next year's picks won't be that good, eh? This is exactly the thinking that got Brain Burke in trouble.

 

[FlashyG]

Assuming they retain or replace Filppula, the Wings are in excellent position for a top-two finish in their division. That puts them likely in the bottom ten picks, as usual.

An offer sheet would send 2014 pick, not 2013 picks.

good point...although I still think a 1st 2nd and 3rd with the last pick in the draft in a weak year is still too much for Stewart.

To me the RFA compensation system seems in place to prevent teams from using offer sheets at all.

 

[SportsballChic]

Next year's picks won't be that good, eh? This is exactly the thinking that got Brain Burke in trouble.

To be fair, I think what got Burke in trouble was assuming that he was a big enough personality to force extreme patience on the team/market. In retrospect, a lot of Burke's work is looking pretty stellar right now; it's just Nonis who's benefiting from it because Burke ran out of time.

Jussayin.

 

[Bench]

To be fair, I think what got Burke in trouble was assuming that he was a big enough personality to force extreme patience on the team/market. In retrospect, a lot of Burke's work is looking pretty stellar right now; it's just Nonis who's benefiting from it because Burke ran out of time.

Jussayin.

Hmm. A fair point...which GM laid down the core in Vancouver for Nonis?

Were my history teachers right?

 

[WingsOverAvs]

To me the RFA compensation system seems in place to prevent teams from using offer sheets at all.

99.9% of the time thats true. I just happen to think DET's put themselves in a position where they can make this work. And this is purely speculative, but if Stewart came in at 4.5, I think its only 1st + 3rd. I believe its 4.6 for the additional 2nd

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

good point...although I still think a 1st 2nd and 3rd with the last pick in the draft in a weak year is still too much for Stewart.

To me the RFA compensation system seems in place to prevent teams from using offer sheets at all.

Your team also be wire to wire good, because you aren't getting any help at the deadline at that point if you hand one of these outs. We might not do anything at the deadline anyway will be the rebuttal. But we can't even pick up the phone at that point.

For a guy like Stewart, who is very inconsistent, I just don't know about that. Especially since if you really wanted to pay him that, the Blues might just take the first round 2014 trade for him rather than both teams stomach the RFA process.

 

[FlashyG]

To be fair, I think what got Burke in trouble was assuming that he was a big enough personality to force extreme patience on the team/market. In retrospect, a lot of Burke's work is looking pretty stellar right now; it's just Nonis who's benefiting from it because Burke ran out of time.

Jussayin.

While that is likely true, Burke was given more time to make the playoffs than any other GM in the history of that Franchise. Ownership showed great patience with him and the fans still liked him when he left.

Leaf fans are probably the most loyal and patient hockey fans around..after all they keep filling that arena every night despite not having a competitive team for a decade or a cup win in almost 50 years.(To counteract that they are also often the most obnoxious)

 

[SportsballChic]

Hmm. A fair point...which GM laid down the core in Vancouver for Nonis?

Were my history teachers right?

You know, I stared at this for a good 3 minutes before I understood what you were saying lol.

Also; yes that's hilarious. The thing is it's hard to feel bad for Burke even if he got jobbed twice by the same guy because he's "cantankerous"; which is funny to me as a Wings fan but probably pissed Leaf's supporters off something fierce.

On topic: I hear Vinny Lecavalier likes waffles.

 

[WingsOverAvs]

For a guy like Stewart, who is very inconsistent

He struggled under Hitchcocks system at first....and the rebounded with 18 goals in 48 games this year. Before Hitchcock, he had back to back 28 goal seasons. Is that really inconsistent?

 

[SportsballChic]

While that is likely true, Burke was given more time to make the playoffs than any other GM in the history of that Franchise. Ownership showed great patience with him and the fans still liked him when he left.

Leaf fans are probably the most loyal and patient hockey fans around..after all they keep filling that arena every night despite not having a competitive team for a decade or a cup win in almost 50 years.(To counteract that they are also often the most obnoxious)

I am aware on both points; I live here Though I will concede that sometimes the "over information" factor in Toronto can make it hard to get a pulse on what's really going on; so many talking heads all have an opinion it's difficult to separate fact/fiction, etc.

I was just mostly defending his moves; long term it seems pretty clear that he was right about a lot of things. I think Burke probably should have been fired sooner actually; but considering he wasn't, it's kind of a bummer he missed out on seeing his team "click" by a year no?

 

[FlashyG]

99.9% of the time thats true. I just happen to think DET's put themselves in a position where they can make this work. And this is purely speculative, but if Stewart came in at 4.5, I think its only 1st + 3rd. I believe its 4.6 for the additional 2nd

It would be a first and third for anything less than $5,046,586.

The problem I see is that he was St. Louis leading scorer by a pretty wide margin this year and while 5 million would make him the highest paid forward on their team they'd end up paying even more trying to replace him on the FA market.

Also to get him to sign an offer sheet it would probably require a long term deal (5+ years) and even then St. Louis would more than likely just match it.

It's not a terrible idea, but why bother unless you strike out with Lecavalier who is a better player in almost every conceivable way and will probably cost about the same amount in dollars and with no cost in assets?

 

[WingsOverAvs]

It's not a terrible idea, but why bother unless you strike out with Lecavalier who is a better player in almost every conceivable way and will probably cost about the same amount in dollars and with no cost in assets?

Why not both? See page 15 for my capgeek submission

 

[FlashyG]

I am aware on both points; I live here Though I will concede that sometimes the "over information" factor in Toronto can make it hard to get a pulse on what's really going on; so many talking heads all have an opinion it's difficult to separate fact/fiction, etc.

I was just mostly defending his moves; long term it seems pretty clear that he was right about a lot of things. I think Burke probably should have been fired sooner actually; but considering he wasn't, it's kind of a bummer he missed out on seeing his team "click" by a year no?

Definitely.

I think the Leafs really missed the boat by not going after Nill when they hired Burke though.

They also at one point had an opportunity to land Scotty Bowman, who had convinced Hakan Andersson to go with him, but ultimately the deal was scuttled because ownership at the time wasn't willing to give him complete control of the franchise.

Being GM there is probably the toughest job in hockey...the scrutiny you're under by some of the worst journalists in sports is intense.

I couldn't imagine having to deal with Damien Cox and Steve Simmons on a regular basis.

 

[FlashyG]

Why not both? See page 15 for my capgeek submission

Mostly because I don't think you can get Brunner to sign for that little otherwise he'd already be signed and because then you'd have 6 or 7 guys signed to long term deals at pretty big cap hits with no compliance buyouts left.

You'd also have to find a taker via trade for some guys as it looked like you cut loose more than 2 players.

It certainly wouldn't be impossible, but I think long term the team would be better off only bringing in one big addition this offseason.

 

[WingsOverAvs]

Mostly because I don't think you can get Brunner to sign for that little otherwise he'd already be signed and because then you'd have 6 or 7 guys signed to long term deals at pretty big cap hits with no compliance buyouts left.

You'd also have to find a taker via trade for some guys as it looked like you cut loose more than 2 players.

It certainly wouldn't be impossible, but I think long term the team would be better off only bringing in one big addition this offseason.

Well, if Mrs St James is to be believed, she said Brunner would cost no more than 3m. I can only assume Brunner's camp wanted 3, Holland probably offered 2.25-2.5 and so theyre haggling over a few hundred grand. I expect it to get done. In terms of the long term deals we have signed, i dont have any concern over any of them. And yes, a few players need to be moved, but I fully expected DET to do that during the draft. Coli has solid value and should be no problem getting a pick for. Eaves the same. Emmerton could be had very cheaply for team in need of some PK help and another center. Tootoo i suspect could be the most difficult to move, but who knows. Not sure where we are with Bert. Is he healthy enough to play? Will he hang em up and collect his last check? We could use the 2nd buyout on him if we had to. But, with 3m+ remaining to add 2 depth forwards, we could keep almost any combination of the previously mentioned forwards

At this point Holland could get 7th rounders for each one and Id be happy

 

[Bench]

Wings need to be careful about handing out too many more significant deals, particularly in the top 6 forwards, if they really want the rebuild on the fly youth movement to have any impact.

Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok, and company will need minutes moving forward.

 

[Hendricks433]

Wings need to be careful about handing out too many more significant deals, particularly in the top 6 forwards, if they really want the rebuild on the fly youth movement to have any impact.

Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok, and company will need minutes moving forward.

I agree, I think a Vinny signing is all we need for this offseason. I would also prefer some defensive help. Move Quincey and bring in a better 2nd pairing guy maybe. Give Tatar and Nyquist some good minutes. Helm will miss time at some point and let Sheahan and Jarnkrok come up for those 4th line minutes rather than having Emmerton.

 

[BF3]

I'd be surprised if Vinny got under $5MM per year. I first said Holland would offer him $18MM/4 years, now I'm thinking he may go as high as $21MM/4 years. I don't see him going to 5 years, though.

Vinny > Weiss/Flip in talent and contract

Weiss > Flip in contract

Nyquist-Dats-Bert
Z-Vinny-Franzen
Brunner-Helm-Tatar
Abby-Andersson-Miller
Eaves

Ericcson-Kronwall
Quincey-Smith
DD-Kindl
CC

Speaking of offer sheets, was there a reason Holland didn't offer sheet PK Subban last year? Was there a good reason I'm not thinking of?

 

[TKB]

I'd be surprised if Vinny got under $5MM per year. I first said Holland would offer him $18MM/4 years, now I'm thinking he may go as high as $21MM/4 years. I don't see him going to 5 years, though.

Vinny > Weiss/Flip in talent and contract

Weiss > Flip in contract

Nyquist-Dats-Bert
Z-Vinny-Franzen
Brunner-Helm-Tatar
Abby-Andersson-Miller
Eaves

Ericcson-Kronwall
Quincey-Smith
DD-Kindl
CC

Speaking of offer sheets, was there a reason Holland didn't offer sheet PK Subban last year? Was there a good reason I'm not thinking of?

I think KH is pretty much on record ( as much as one can be without being accused of collusion) as saying the Wings won't do offer sheets.

 

[Wayne Crosby]

not sure if this has been posted yet, but just in case here's the helene st. james article on vinny:

http://www.freep.com/article/20130627/SPORTS05/306270074

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Assuming they retain or replace Filppula, the Wings are in excellent position for a top-two finish in their division. That puts them likely in the bottom ten picks, as usual.

An offer sheet would send 2014 pick, not 2013 picks.

The Wings are just as likely to finish second to the bottom.

 

[WingsOverAvs]

The Wings are just as likely to finish second to the bottom.

Going East will make DET better, not worse imo