Why is Auston Matthews considered a top 10 player?

[nobody]

Right now there is a sizeable gap offensively production wise in their games. Yes Matthews is very good defensively but McDavis is good as well.

The way Leafs fans portray Matthews and try to compensate his lack of elite production right now is the same way people spoke about Toews.

First off Johnny Toews is a massive reason why the Hawks have 3 cups.

Secondly, Auston Matthews does have elite production right now. He's ppg. He was well over ppg before his injuries (concussions and wrist?). He's missed 10 games because of injuries and he has looked massively underwhelming for another 5-8 games because of injuries. Let's not pretend like Matthews is playing at his full potential and putting up PPG. This is him playing at arguably 60-70%. He himself even said before that he had played a couple of games at less than 50% but it is what it is. If Matthews did not get hurt this year, he would be at very top of the scoring race. Maybe not #1 but definitely in the top 3. The kid was steamrolling teams and his line was absolutely dominant offensively and defensively for the entire time he was healthy. The whole team and his line fell apart the moment he got hurt. Hell Nylander was demoted to the 4th line because his production went MIA without Matty.

Leafs fans are getting irritated right now because Matthews year is being downplayed because of his injuries. People don't realise just how dominant he was in his first 20 games before he got hurt. He was arguably a top 3 player league wide and he was getting high praises from all the media guys. The same guys that the Oilers fan is talking about anointing McDavid as McJesus with all his awards and accolades.

 

[LeafFever]

Jack Eichel can have a career high of 24 goals, 57 points, be a superstar and get `10 million per. What's with the knocks on Matthews? His stats speak for themselves. He leads the entire NHl by far in 5 on 5 goals since he entered the NHl at 19.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

If you are being objective, there is only one way to find out. Clearly you were alright with assigning weight to Matthews effect after 98 games played. Not sure where you pulled the arbitrary cut off from?

My cut off is current impact. Toronto still had a winning record this season with Matthews out. You have to go back 2 seasons to see the Oilers without McDavid.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

Actually there is a 9 point gap. What do you consider "sizeable".

Last season: 100 points vs 69
This season (pro-rated): 92 points vs 82 points

Even just those 10 points is significant.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

So it's settled. Matthews is in the 11-20 range.

 

[Nithoniniel]

So it's settled. Matthews is in the 11-20 range.

Looks reasonable. There's still a bunch of forwards I'd say are better, add a couple of defensemen and goalies and the top 10 range fills up rather quickly. I'd probably put him around 11-15 right now.

 

[TheNumber4]

I always love it when people bow to authority. The same authority that does things like pick MacInnis over Gretzky. Or that includes the likes of Mike Milbury. You are doing even better when you appeal to the likes of Steve Simmons, Larry Brroks etc. Heck it even includes guys like Mark Spector. Know who he is? He's a guy from Prince Edward Island who started a website about hockey rumours. Keep telling yourself though that all these guys are "experts" whose opinions are so much more valid. For the record I like Mark and have spoken with him a few times in the past. I just find it funny when people like you try to play the authority card.

Nice point bro, now account for the fact the NHL players came to same conclusion as the dumbass NHL writers and then also explain why the stats back up their opinion too.

I'm waiting and I expect to hear a list of NHL players who are dumb like steve Simmons, and mark spector, and Mike milbury.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

First off Johnny Toews is a massive reason why the Hawks have 3 cups.

Secondly, Auston Matthews does have elite production right now. He's ppg. He was well over ppg before his injuries (concussions and wrist?). He's missed 10 games because of injuries and he has looked massively underwhelming for another 5-8 games because of injuries. Let's not pretend like Matthews is playing at his full potential and putting up PPG. This is him playing at arguably 60-70%. He himself even said before that he had played a couple of games at less than 50% but it is what it is. If Matthews did not get hurt this year, he would be at very top of the scoring race. Maybe not #1 but definitely in the top 3. The kid was steamrolling teams and his line was absolutely dominant offensively and defensively for the entire time he was healthy. The whole team and his line fell apart the moment he got hurt. Hell Nylander was demoted to the 4th line because his production went MIA without Matty.

Leafs fans are getting irritated right now because Matthews year is being downplayed because of his injuries. People don't realise just how dominant he was in his first 20 games before he got hurt. He was arguably a top 3 player league wide and he was getting high praises from all the media guys. The same guys that the Oilers fan is talking about anointing McDavid as McJesus with all his awards and accolades.

well, in fairness, toews had 1 season in his career with more points than Matthews rookie season, and has never scored as many goals. and even with the lower production he was an absolute monster that led the black hawks (from a forward perspective at least) to 3 cups....

so if we have a toews with an extra 20 goals and points on our hands, that's a Hart trophy candidate.

The Toews comparison was more about ignoring players that have more points because of intangibles and team impact and 200 foot game. I think Matthews will be better than Toews ever was. But my point is let's wait until he gets there.

Right now I wouldn't rank Matthews over McDavid, Crosby, Tavares, Stamkos, Kucherov, Kane, Getzlaf or Malkin. With Seguin, Benn, Backstrom, Scheifele and a couple more been right there. A 69 point season and a point per game start to another isn't enough to put him on par with a Hart and Art Ross winner and automatically over guys that have been having these types of seasons for a while.

Yes he is special. It's not an insult to him that fans of other teams need more time before naming him one of the best because there is a lot of talent in the league right now. Just be patient.

 

[nobody]

Last season: 100 points vs 69
This season (pro-rated): 92 points vs 82 points

Even just those 10 points is significant.

Valid point. Leafs have offensively struggled for the last while. Once they go back on the upswing I think the gap might be closed off by quite a bit. Another thing you might want to consider is the difference in ice time etc. Yes, McDavid kills penalties but he has also collected a couple of SHP. So it's not just dead time he's piling on to his TOI.

Many other factors come into play when talking about just offensive numbers, right?

 

[TheNumber4]

You're going off tangent here. Anyway, I don't need to win an argument to feel good. Do you.

Off tangent? I didn't bring up the subject of disrespectful discourse, you did. Speaking of which, did you just personally insult me?

 

[LeafFever]

People knocking Matthews can't be doing it based on stats. He got 40 goals, 69 points as a rookie. Now he's PPG in his second season. The players people rave about in here are not getting that production at all.
I guess he needs to switch jerseys to get that.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

My cut off is current impact. Toronto still had a winning record this season with Matthews out. You have to go back 2 seasons to see the Oilers without McDavid.

That seems "convenient" for someone who was just casually pointing something out.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

Valid point. Leafs have offensively struggled for the last while. Once they go back on the upswing I think the gap might be closed off by quite a bit. Another thing you might want to consider is the difference in ice time etc. Yes, McDavid kills penalties but he has also collected a couple of SHP. So it's not just dead time he's piling on to his TOI.

Many other factors come into play when talking about just offensive numbers, right?

Yes of course. But when you're discussing one player vs another individually I would say personal accolades are important. As of now McDvaid has cracked 100 points and he's above 1ppg in his career. Matthews isn't. More time on ice is on McDavid's side. Better team is on Matthews side. It's hard to compare perfectly.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

That seems "convenient" for someone who was just casually pointing something out.

I don't see how it's "convenient" to say McDavid would have a larger impact on his teams success in his 3rd year in the league compared to after the first 40 games of his career. Especially considering the team has a very different make up now and McDavid just won the scoring race.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Nice point bro, now account for the fact the NHL players came to same conclusion as the dumbass NHL writers and then also explain why the stats back up their opinion too.

I'm waiting and I expect to hear a list of NHL players who are dumb like steve Simmons, and mark spector, and Mike milbury.

Of course assists and points do. I've been trying to get you discuss any possible other statistic but you won't. I put the challenge to you several pages ago and it still sits, blissfully ignored.

I think at this point we can safely chalk it up to hockey players are only about points to you, there are no other skills in the game and it does not matter that there is a 9 point pace gap between the two or that one has the better results than the other on per 60 (save powerplay time).

 

[TheNumber4]

People knocking Matthews can't be doing it based on stats. He got 40 goals, 69 points as a rookie. Now he's PPG in his second season. The players people rave about in here are not getting that production at all.
I guess he needs to switch jerseys to get that.

Not knocking a great player. But everything you've stated puts him squarely around the top 20 player in league. To say he's better than his stats show, would be knocking all the players above him who earned it.

 

[BlueBaron]

Lol no not just those guys how these guys?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-7-30pm-edmonton-wins-mcdavid.1879337/page-40

Is it really just a "couple" leafs fans? I dunno I don't keep count. But if I go by these main boards I'd say it's about 50/50. Which is enough for me to address it.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to feel good I guess.

I know some of you want us all to envy you, it's why you have so many "Tell us how great we are threads" and spend so much time trying to tear Matthews down. It's a one sided thing though, we really do not give a crap about your fan base. We aren't the ones who watch draft lottery videos after losses.

You guys would be way better off if you just dropped your Leaf obsession and spent your time tearing down a real rival like Calgary. That would make sense at least.

We like our team, we like our franchise player. Not everything (or much of anything really) is about McDavid and the Oilers.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I don't see how it's "convenient" to say McDavid would have a larger impact on his teams success in his 3rd year in the league compared to after the first 40 games of his career. Especially considering the team has a very different make up now and McDavid just won the scoring race.

For starters, it is 100% assumption. For second, what's he doing so much better this year? Maybe his contribution to team goals (didn't look that up). Point pace is almost same as rookie year.

 

[joe dirte]

The Toews comparison was more about ignoring players that have more points because of intangibles and team impact and 200 foot game. I think Matthews will be better than Toews ever was. But my point is let's wait until he gets there.

Right now I wouldn't rank Matthews over McDavid, Crosby, Tavares, Stamkos, Kucherov, Kane, Getzlaf or Malkin. With Seguin, Benn, Backstrom, Scheifele and a couple more been right there. A 69 point season and a point per game start to another isn't enough to put him on par with a Hart and Art Ross winner and automatically over guys that have been having these types of seasons for a while.

Yes he is special. It's not an insult to him that fans of other teams need more time before naming him one of the best because there is a lot of talent in the league right now. Just be patient.

reasonably fair.

I wonder though... and I start this by saying getzlaf is one of my favourite players. he's averaged about the same points the last 3 years as Matthews put up last year. Matthews scores twice as many goals. if you're going to refer to toews' impact outside his points as just intangibles, why would you include getzlaf in there when Matthews clearly has him beat production wise already?

 

[TheNumber4]

Of course assists and points do. I've been trying to get you discuss any possible other statistic but you won't. I put the challenge to you several pages ago and it still sits, blissfully ignored.

I think at this point we can safely chalk it up to hockey players are only about points to you, there are no other skills in the game and it does not matter that there is a 9 point pace gap between the two or that one has the better results than the other on per 60 (save powerplay time).

It's ignored because those stats you want me to dive into are irrelevant in the face of a Hart, Lyndsey, Art Ross, and concensus of hockey fans. Why should I look up stats to prove something so plainly obvious to anyone besides Leafs fans. The reason it's ignored is because it's a waste of time.

 

[Jarey Curry]

Why is Auston Matthews considered a top-ten, even top-five player already? Obviously he had an incredible rookie season, but having him rated above guys like Stamkos, Schiefele, etc is unjustified imo. I will name all the forwards I think are better than him.

(In no order)

McDavid
Stamkos
Kucherov
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Tarasenko
Tavares
Benn
Backstrom
Kane
Gaudreau
Schiefele
Wheeler

Just of the top of my head. In the future Matthews could pass most of these guys, but why is he already considered so great? Toronto Bias?

What is a top 10 player in NHL really? That's not set in stone and changes all the time...
Top 10 most recognizable active NHL player? I think Matthews might crack that list. Top 10 hottest pointwise? check the stats.

 

[TheNumber4]

Whatever you have to tell yourself to feel good I guess.

I know some of you want us all to envy you, it's why you have so many "Tell us how great we are threads" and spend so much time trying to tear Matthews down. It's a one sided thing though, we really do not give a crap about your fan base. We aren't the ones who watch draft lottery videos after losses.

You guys would be way better off if you just dropped your Leaf obsession and spent your time tearing down a real rival like Calgary. That would make sense at least.

We like our team, we like our franchise player. Not everything (or much of anything really) is about McDavid and the Oilers.

I'm in a Matthews thread talking about Matthews. Did you want me to quote all the leafs fans who tried to turn this into an "Oilers suck forever and will never ever be good" and "the Leafs are way way way better and they just jealous" thread?

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

reasonably fair.

I wonder though... and I start this by saying getzlaf is one of my favourite players. he's averaged about the same points the last 3 years as Matthews put up last year. Matthews scores twice as many goals. if you're going to refer to toews' impact outside his points as just intangibles, why would you include getzlaf in there when Matthews clearly has him beat production wise already?

Toews definitely had an impact outside of points. But was it enough to put him over Crosby on TSN's list of best players?

Getzlaf over Matthews right now because they have similar production but Getzlaf has ben doing it for a long time. He also had a couple of season over 1ppg.

Maybe I'm wrong for valuing consistency and it takes me a while to put someone new over established players.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Last season: 100 points vs 69
This season (pro-rated): 92 points vs 82 points

Even just those 10 points is significant.

So you are largely basing it off of sophomore vs rookie year.

The 9 point difference this year also comes with one guy having 2 injuries. While you can't extrapolate minutes=points, Matthews also has better production/60.....McDavid only gets him via powerplay. Factor it all in, not sure how you can possibly see a big gap in production unless you focus your whole argument on sophomore vs rookie.

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

For starters, it is 100% assumption. For second, what's he doing so much better this year? Maybe his contribution to team goals (didn't look that up). Point pace is almost same as rookie year.

You are also assuming that McDavid today wouldn't impact his team more than 2 seasons ago McDavid. We both have no proof until Mcdavid misses time.