Why is Auston Matthews considered a top 10 player?

[The Hanging Jowl]

Matthews have biggest nose at least.

Actually if you look at his xNStNR (expected nose size to nostril ratio), Matthews has a surprisingly small nose.

 

[joe dirte]

Lol no not just those guys how these guys?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-7-30pm-edmonton-wins-mcdavid.1879337/page-40

Is it really just a "couple" leafs fans? I dunno I don't keep count. But if I go by these main boards I'd say it's about 50/50. Which is enough for me to address it.

there is literally not a single mention of him going to the leafs there. just a lot of pissed off people that the mess tgat is Edmonton swallowing up yet another number 1 pick.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Actually if you look at his xNStNR (expected nose size to nostril ratio), Matthews has a surprisingly small nose.

Gold Jerry, gold!

 

[TheNumber4]

Oh it is objectivity you want.

OK first off it would be good if you learned that the Hart trophy is not awarded as follows: "newsflash for you guys' when the entire league votes him as MVP, you know, like the Hart trophy McDavid won". That's voted on by the Professional Hockey Writers' Association. If you want to play the champion of objectivity card, you should at least get your facts straight.

With that out of the way, let's delve. We are currently witnessing McDavid's third season and Matthews second. Their 82 game pace has them finishing with 91 and 82 points. A whole 9 point spread. I suppose in your mind that's a huge distance and must be all "in Leaf fans heads" despite that seeming like YOUR OPINION and flying quite directly in the face of the objectivity you so crave.

Now if we were talking some 20 or 30 point difference, there might be an argument to be made that it is too big of a gap to make up with other parts of your game but 9 points? The conversation sure gets a lot more interesting. There are a lot of numbers to go through where you will find Matthews comes out ahead and those are objective numbers but I am sure when brought up, you will toss them aside in favour of something non-objective.

See I have heard very few people attempt to portray Matthews as better but many who have said the separation between them is not that great. 9 points plus analysis of all the other factors would seem to OBJECTIVELY lean in their favour. What we do get around here is a lot of people throwing stuff out without the context. Like for instance the insistence on comparing Matthews rookie year to McDavid's sophomore one. That's inherently biased and avoids context like playing on an all rookie line and 7 rookie team. When you compare year to year, McDavid still had far more production in his rookie year, though again, context is important in noting he spent the year stapled to a player who was a top 5 scorer in the entire league over the previous half decade (not Hyman/Nylander/Brown). Then it will be "my god...trophies". OK. Comparing rookie years Matthews won one trophy and finished 4 goals short of a second one. McDavid? That's a little tongue in cheek in that I realize Connor would have won the Calder if not injured but objectively speaking, that's how it played out. I don't expect Matthews will rack up the Hart and such this year. I do expect he'll be in the running for it for years to come. If not for injury, his G/GP pace has him once again in the hunt for that trophy.

Another objective measure you won't like is team winning percentages since they both entered the league. For the Leafs it is .516 and for the Oilers .468. Of course the first thing you are going to do is run to "you can't penalize Connor because he plays on a worse team". Here's the thing. Matthews walked onto the last place team in the league....a team that featured 7 rookies, which is literally 1/3 of the entire team, and you would want to make the argument he walked into a better situation? Moreover, Leaf fans have been told ad nauseum that every single player or person in their organization is inferior to what Edmonton has. Somewhere along the line you guys - if you are being objective - need to reconcile that something is not right. Whether that is that maybe the total package Matthews brings really IS more important than just points or whether it is your assessment of many of the other players. Regardless, the OBJECTIVE results tell you you need to rethink your analysis. The alternative of course is to continue onward with your heads implanted up your posteriors.

Lastly is this business of "generational". Since you want to be the champion of objectivity, I would suggest you look at how the actual generational talents (Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr) stacked up versus their peers three years into the league. Note when examining goals, assists and points how big the percentage gaps was between them and their peers as well as the names of the others involved. Do this and you will quickly realize that OBJECTIVELY McDavid has no business being mentioned in the same breath as the generational ones. Not to date anyways. He hasn't created the gap and in many cases is behind guys that wouldn't come within miles of the generational ones.

Oh okay so it was the Lyndsay he won where he was voted MVP by the league, LOL. Wow, really got me there. But hey atleast you guys got Barkovs vote.

As for the rest of your post, just compare McDavids 2nd year to Matthews now 2nd year. The gap is hugeeeee. And even if it wasn't, I'm not saying Matthews is not a good player, I'm saying he's not as good as McDavid objectively. And leafs fans cherry picking stats like "loose puck recoveries" doesn't close that gap as much as you think it does.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Oh okay so it was the Lyndsay he won where he was voted MVP by the league, LOL. Wow, really got me there. But hey atleast you guys got Barkovs vote.

As for the rest of your post, just compare McDavids 2nd year to Matthews now 2nd year. The gap is hugeeeee. And even if it wasn't, I'm not saying Matthews is not a good player, I'm saying he's not as good as McDavid objectively. And leafs fans cherry picking stats like "loose puck recoveries" doesn't close that gap as much as you think it does.

Yet in your post above you said points is the be all and end all and their paces this year have them 9 points apart despite one guy battling multiple injuries. Seems to me it is a pretty small gap or is there a reason you are cherry picking? I'm curious about your answer to the second question I asked you as to whether we can say McDavid is outside the top 20? It will quickly illustrate how much back peddling you will or won't do. You've already answered any question I would have had about your interest in objectivity.

 

[nobody]

Lol so your argument essentially boils down to "don't beleive your lying eyes" haahaha. Well there's more than just that one video, YouTube has lots. But here, let me show you pages and pages and pages of leafs fans dreaming of McDavid, saying they'll tattoo the date on themselves if they get McDavid, trying to convince eachother how a big market like Toronto "deserves" McDavid, praying to GOD for McDavid, etc etc, then the thread devolves into pages of crying followed by more crying followed by more and more crying.

Was this thread a Netflix movie too?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-7-30pm-edmonton-wins-mcdavid.1879337/page-40

I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here but majority of the Leafs fans didn't expect McDavid. The Leafs as a franchise have had absolutely shit luck for ever and ever and most Leafs fans are way too reserved to get their hopes up. The most Leafy thing about that draft was to find out that the Leafs were on of the last teams in contention to draw the McDavid lottery ball. That was what irritated most of us but again we didn't get too worked up because well, that's just how it had gone for us in Leaf land.

If you want to talk about Leafs fans being down in the dumps, go check out the lottery draw for Matthews. Most fans including myself were just praying we would stay in the top 3. Again, it's sad to think about when you have the best odds, but with the Leafs luck 20% odds is as good as 2%. Also, Toronto did deserve a break with a lottery pick. Unlike Edmonton, we had been mediocre without having been rewarded 3 1sts already by that point. It sucks when you're bad for so long and have nothing to show for it. I'm sure Oilers fans can relate.

Lastly, go watch the lottery draw. Go enjoy the excitement that it brought to McDavid knowing he was going to Edmonton. The biggest fan base that I felt true pity for that day was the Sabres. They did everything in their powers to tank and get the best odds and they got shafted by the Oilers (lottery champions). I'm not sure what the Oilers good luck charm is for all those lottery wins but it's impressive.

I don't think there has been a single team in NHL history to have a span of 10 seasons of consistently high picks without any sort of results. It's quite impressive how much talent the Oilers have drafted in 10 consecutive seasons.

6th overall 2007 Gagner
22nd overall 2008 Eberle
10th overall 2009 MPS
1st overall 2010 Hall
1st overall 2011 RNH
1st overall 2012 Yakupov
7th overall 2013 Nurse
3rd overall 2014 Draisaitl
1st overall 2015 McDavid
4th overall 2016 Puljujarvi

Eberle - McDavid - Hall
Puljujarvi - Draisaitl - Yakupov
Gagner - RNH - MPS

Nurse -

Impressive.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Lol everytime someone speaks the truth about Matthews, the response by Leafs fans who can't really defend the truth is to attack that persons team. Where in this thread do I get worked up about the Oilers? No where. But keep acting like me saying Matthews isn't a top 10 player right now (he isnt) and McDavid is better is because the Oilers suck right now (they do). I had this same opinion last year when the Oilers nearly made it to the 3rd round of the playoffs. But sure, according to you the only reason I beleive the FACT that McDavid is better than Matthews is because Yakupov didn't pan out hahahha

You've talked several times about objectivity (while constantly spouting opinion rather than fact). Aside from points and assists, please list for me all the statistical areas (removes subjectivity) where McDavid is clearly superior.

 

[TheNumber4]

Yet in your post above you said points is the be all and end all and their paces this year have them 9 points apart despite one guy battling multiple injuries. Seems to me it is a pretty small gap or is there a reason you are cherry picking? I'm curious about your answer to the second question I asked you as to whether we can say McDavid is outside the top 20? It will quickly illustrate how much back peddling you will or won't do. You've already answered any question I would have had about your interest in objectivity.

Lol oh, you want to talk about context. McDavid dealt with 2 flus and lost 15 pounds this year and is being supported by a floundering team. And he's STILL 9 points ahead? Hey what about last year when they both had good teams and both played injury free? How was the gap then? Lol

Can we say McDavid is outside the top 20 is your question? I don't know would you consider a player coming off a Hart, Art, and Ted Lyndsey year while still being in the top 10 in scoring despite being supported by a bad team and losing 15 pounds a top 20 player?

 

[TheNumber4]

If the season ended today, are we good to say McDavid is not a top 8 player in the game (actually not even top 10 as his Pts/GP puts him 13th)? Heck are we good to say he might not even be a top 20 player in the game (once we factor in d-men and goalies)?

Lol I dunno Crosby sits 33 in league scoring but has Art Rosses, Harts, and Ted Lyndsay to back up his status. Same with McDavid. Can i say the same for Matthews? NOPE.

 

[TheNumber4]

I honestly don't know what you're trying to prove here but majority of the Leafs fans didn't expect McDavid. The Leafs as a franchise have had absolutely **** luck for ever and ever and most Leafs fans are way too reserved to get their hopes up. The most Leafy thing about that draft was to find out that the Leafs were on of the last teams in contention to draw the McDavid lottery ball. That was what irritated most of us but again we didn't get too worked up because well, that's just how it had gone for us in Leaf land.

If you want to talk about Leafs fans being down in the dumps, go check out the lottery draw for Matthews. Most fans including myself were just praying we would stay in the top 3. Again, it's sad to think about when you have the best odds, but with the Leafs luck 20% odds is as good as 2%. Also, Toronto did deserve a break with a lottery pick. Unlike Edmonton, we had been mediocre without having been rewarded 3 1sts already by that point. It sucks when you're bad for so long and have nothing to show for it. I'm sure Oilers fans can relate.

Lastly, go watch the lottery draw. Go enjoy the excitement that it brought to McDavid knowing he was going to Edmonton. The biggest fan base that I felt true pity for that day was the Sabres. They did everything in their powers to tank and get the best odds and they got shafted by the Oilers (lottery champions). I'm not sure what the Oilers good luck charm is for all those lottery wins but it's impressive.

I don't think there has been a single team in NHL history to have a span of 10 seasons of consistently high picks without any sort of results. It's quite impressive how much talent the Oilers have drafted in 10 consecutive seasons.

6th overall 2007 Gagner
22nd overall 2008 Eberle
10th overall 2009 MPS
1st overall 2010 Hall
1st overall 2011 RNH
1st overall 2012 Yakupov
7th overall 2013 Nurse
3rd overall 2014 Draisaitl
1st overall 2015 McDavid
4th overall 2016 Puljujarvi

Eberle - McDavid - Hall
Puljujarvi - Draisaitl - Yakupov
Gagner - RNH - MPS

Nurse -

Impressive.

Actually my point wasn't really that Leafs fans expected McDavid, my point was that they wished for McDavid and they thought they "deserved" McDavid, and thus why the bitter tears ever since. I swear at 'this point Leafs fans would hope for a US Olympic win lead by Matthews over Canada due to this bitterness.

And on the point of "deserved" McDavid, you just made my point. With your whole woe as me spiel about Leafs luck vs Oilers luck, all while forgetting that for decades Leafs were able to outspend the Oilers and sign free agents while the Oilers either couldn't afford the free agent or were shunned due to location. Leafs organization has had all the advantages possible in the NHL and still do. Or do you not think signing the most expensive and successful coach of the past 2 decades isn't a perk of the Leafs organization?

Oh and on to the rest of your post which is just Oilers bashing. Refer to my post directly above yours.

 

[TheNumber4]

You've talked several times about objectivity (while constantly spouting opinion rather than fact). Aside from points and assists, please list for me all the statistical areas (removes subjectivity) where McDavid is clearly superior.

Let me start counting all the loose puck recoveries since he entered the league. I'll have to warm the PVR up.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Lol I dunno Crosby sits 33 in league scoring but has Art Rosses, Harts, and Ted Lyndsay to back up his status. Same with McDavid. Can i say the same for Matthews? NOPE.

That was last year’s McDavid. This year’s McDavid is almost outside top 10 in scoring, is 13th in PPG, barely on pace for 90 points, and can’t put his team in a playoff spot halfway through the season. This is regression. I know that Oilers fans expected 120 points from him this season, which makes it more tragic.

 

[Lahey]

Lol oh, you want to talk about context. McDavid dealt with 2 flus and lost 15 pounds this year and is being supported by a floundering team. And he's STILL 9 points ahead? Hey what about last year when they both had good teams and both played injury free? How was the gap then? Lol

Can we say McDavid is outside the top 20 is your question? I don't know would you consider a player coming off a Hart, Art, and Ted Lyndsey year while still being in the top 10 in scoring despite being supported by a bad team and losing 15 pounds a top 20 player?

Oh McDavid dealt with flu?? Omg no!! Matthews had a concussion this year so don’t bring that crap excuse about injuries. Your agenda is showing big time.

 

[TheNumber4]

That was last year’s McDavid. This year’s McDavid is almost outside top 10 in scoring, is 13th in PPG, barely on pace for 90 points, and can’t put his team in a playoff spot halfway through the season. This is regression. I know that Oilers fans expected 120 points from him this season, which makes it more tragic.

so you'll admit by this logic that Matthews isn't a top 50 player in this league then? Nice.

Oh and yeh players get leeway on their status when they've just come off a year being undisputed best player in the league. And I say undisputed as a fact.

 

[BayStreetBully]

so you'll admit by this logic that Matthews isn't a top 50 player in this league then? Nice.

Oh and yeh players get leeway on their status when they've just come off a year being undisputed best player in the league. And I say undisputed as a fact.

Matthews is getting better in his second year. He is also making the Leafs better than last year. McDavid is getting worse in his third year. McDavid is not making the Oilers better than last year.

McDavid is in his third year, has played every single game, and is barely on pace for 90 points. He’s almost outside top 10 in scoring. He’s OUTSIDE top 10 in PPG. And he’s playing worse than last year. He is doing nothing to put the Oilers in the playoffs. For a guy who was the next Gretzky, the supposedly undisputed best player in the game, unarguable generational player... you have to be disappointed with McDavid this season if you are an Oilers fan. I know I would be disappointed with such regression.

 

[TheNumber4]

Matthews is getting better in his second year. He is also making the Leafs better than last year. McDavid is getting worse in his third year. McDavid is not making the Oilers better than last year.

McDavid is in his third year, has played every single game, and is barely on pace for 90 points. He’s almost outside top 10 in scoring. He’s OUTSIDE top 10 in PPG. And he’s playing worse than last year. He is doing nothing to put the Oilers in the playoffs. For a guy who was the next Gretzky, the supposedly undisputed best player in the game, unarguable generational player... you have to be disappointed with McDavid this season if you are an Oilers fan. I know I would be disappointed with such regression.

Nah Oilers fans get hockey and understand context. They get that a trash goalie and missing a top 4 d-man all year while other d-men shit the bed can tank a team. They understand that McDavid lost 15 pounds due to 2 flus has hurt his performance. They also understand that these factors don't delete 1 year ago when McDavid was healthy and won the 3 awards most indicative of who the best player in the game is.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Nah Oilers fans get hockey and understand context. They get that a trash goalie and missing a top 4 d-man all year while other d-men **** the bed can tank a team. They understand that McDavid lost 15 pounds due to 2 flus has hurt his performance. They also understand that these factors don't delete 1 year ago when McDavid was healthy and won the 3 awards most indicative of who the best player in the game is.

He's lucky it was only that bad. The flu can be career-ending...He's got my vote for the Masterson

 

[Lahey]

Nah Oilers fans get hockey and understand context. They get that a trash goalie and missing a top 4 d-man all year while other d-men **** the bed can tank a team. They understand that McDavid lost 15 pounds due to 2 flus has hurt his performance. They also understand that these factors don't delete 1 year ago when McDavid was healthy and won the 3 awards most indicative of who the best player in the game is.

“Oiler fans get hockey and understand context” then proceeds to list off as many excuses as possible for the oilers crap season. Hahahahahahhh

 

[TheNumber4]

Tbh man just stop. Extreme bias is definitely showing here. Let’s just have a civil discussion instead of bashing

Yeh I'm so extremellyyyyy biased to rank a player who's outside the top 15 in league scoring for 2 years now as outside the top 15. Lol. Are you sure it isn't biased to rank a player as generational in the same breath of Crosby just cause he's a Leaf? LOL.

 

[nobody]

Actually my point wasn't really that Leafs fans expected McDavid, my point was that they wished for McDavid and they thought they "deserved" McDavid, and thus why the bitter tears ever since. I swear at 'this point Leafs fans would hope for a US Olympic win lead by Matthews over Canada due to this bitterness.

And on the point of "deserved" McDavid, you just made my point. With your whole woe as me spiel about Leafs luck vs Oilers luck, all while forgetting that for decades Leafs were able to outspend the Oilers and sign free agents while the Oilers either couldn't afford the free agent or were shunned due to location. Leafs organization has had all the advantages possible in the NHL and still do. Or do you not think signing the most expensive and successful coach of the past 2 decades isn't a perk of the Leafs organization?

Oh and on to the rest of your post which is just Oilers bashing. Refer to my post directly above yours.

I won't fight you on the fact that most Leafs fans really wanted McDavid. What sane hockey fan wouldn't? We just knew it probably wasn't a realistic expectation. Also the Leafs fans have deserved better for what they were put through and that was our first season of proper tanking and we felt like we were due for a reward. Luckily for us, we were handed Mitch Marner for our suffering. Would Leafs nation love to have McDavid on the team? Ofc. Are Leafs fans jealous of the Oilers or bitter for not having McDavid? Not even remotely close. Leafs fans are many things but bitter is not one. The media might lead you to believe something but the reality is Leafs fans are happy to see McDavid succeed, just like we're happy to see Phil Kessel win two cups. There's no bitterness there. I personally don't give a crap about the Oilers or McDavid and have no ill-will towards either.

The only thing that pisses me and the rest of Leafs nation is the McJesus is holier than thou crowd that comes around everytime McDavid and Matthews are mentioned in the same breath. They feel the need to police public opinion and correct people as to what they should and should not believe. The insecurity isn't in Leafs nation because we're saying our guy is just as good. The insecurity is on SOME Oilers fans who feel the need to show up for no reason just because some guy/gal on the internet said something they felt offended by.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Nah Oilers fans get hockey and understand context. They get that a trash goalie and missing a top 4 d-man all year while other d-men **** the bed can tank a team. They understand that McDavid lost 15 pounds due to 2 flus has hurt his performance. They also understand that these factors don't delete 1 year ago when McDavid was healthy and won the 3 awards most indicative of who the best player in the game is.

They must also understand that McDavid is outside top 10 in PPG, and is barely top 10 in scoring despite having played every single game. For what McDavid was represented to be, I’m sure Oilers fans also understand that the Next Gretzky should be sitting at 60 points and 1st in scoring right now, and instead to sit barely in top 10 scoring and 13th in PPG is inexcusable for the supposed Next Gretzky. No Oilers fan could be happy with that. That is some serious underperformance.

 

[TheNumber4]

“Oiler fans get hockey and understand context” then proceeds to list off as many excuses as possible for the oilers crap season. Hahahahahahhh

Yes, to understand why the Oilers are having a bad season you need to know reasons.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Biggest facepalm ever.. oh so u literally need to be a top 10 point producer to be a top 10 player... yeah let’s just not look at anything other than points. So I’m guessing you think Josh Bailey is a top 5 player in the league right?

Just because someone is top 10 in scoring, doesn't mean they're a top 10 player. However, to be a top 10 player, you need to at least finish within the top 10 in scoring at some point in your career. This obviously doesn't include defensemen and goaltenders.

Lets not pretend like Matthews has Datsyuk level defensive play.

 

[Erndog]

Last night:

Mcdavid: 24:04
Matthews: 16:48

And this happens fairly regularly. I really do wish we'd see what Matthews could do if he got ice time like Connor (I am not slagging Connor AT ALL, just wish Matthews received the same amount of opportunity).

 

[BayStreetBully]

Yes, to understand why the Oilers are having a bad season you need to know reasons.

Because McDavid isn’t scoring enough in relation to expectations. Can you imagine Gretzky being barely top 10 in scoring in his third year? Gretzky was running away with the scoring title with 200 points in his third year, not being a barely top 10 scorer with 105 points behind 10 players. I thought you all said he was the Next Gretzky. I could’ve sworn this after the Oilers’ first game this season.