That doesn't make sense. Yes there are different facets to the game. That's why you can't always compare total points vs total points. Some players get more ice time (both es and pp), some get more favorable usage (better line mates, more offensive zone starts, easier match ups) and some players are better defensively. All things you have to take into account. Not just looking at the nhl.com stats list and seeing who has more points.
Why is Auston Matthews considered a top 10 player?
- Thread starter ConnorMcMullet
- Start date
-
HF Sportsbook has been reset for the new season - Click here to play.
- Status
That doesn't make sense. Yes there are different facets to the game. That's why you can't always compare total points vs total points. Some players get more ice time (both es and pp), some get more favorable usage (better line mates, more offensive zone starts, easier match ups) and some players are better defensively. All things you have to take into account. Not just looking at the nhl.com stats list and seeing who has more points.
stampedingviking
Registered User
Just total ES points, then? Afterall, that's what Leafs fans are claiming in here.
BruinLVGA
CZ Shadow 2 Compact: finally here!!!
You have a great point. I think that Bergeron playing the entire 16-17 season with a sports hernia and also missing games this year with another injury had a severe impact on his points production.
Even with that, he won his 4th Selke (tied for first all time) last year and this year he centers the only top line (alongside Pastrnak and Marchand) in the league that wasn’t scored against at 5vs5 (0 goals in 21 games).
He also pretty much leads or is top in many other stats non-points production related. All this and being a generational two way forward who shuts down any line that plays against him, ought to guarantee him a significantly higher status. But I wouldn’t go and say that he is currently a top 5 player in the league.
And the same goes for Auston, who has a higher production than Bergeron, but as far as the rest of the other things mentioned up here, is not in the same category as Bergeron.
g00n
Retired Global Mod
- Nov 22, 2007
- 31,197
- 15,722
In some regards, yes he is, as I noted. As he is trending, he could also be near the top in other categories. The OP mentioned his potential so that is part of the discussion. Most of the players in the OP are not ahead of AM in most stats so we're clearly talking about an overall picture. Four of the top 10 players ranked by TSN in the preseason are not on the OPs list. Opinions will differ. Nothing is going to be "proven" yet.
What are you talking about? No one is claiming only es points matter. Where are you getting this from?
It's generally accepted that es scoring is more valuable than pp scoring due to most of the game being played at es and pp time varies from player to player. The fact that Matthews has the most es goals since joining the league and is 6th in points is very impressive. No one is saying that means he's the GOAT. But you'd be a fool to look at that and think it's just meaningless. If the leafs loaded up on one pp (example: Matthews, nylander, marner, jvr, Reilly) and gave them the majority of the 2 minutes, auston would have even more points. But they leafs instead roll two good pp units and split the time fairly evenly.
Volica
Papa Shango
- May 15, 2012
- 21,700
- 11,407
Outside the top 15 in P/G.
Outside the top 50 in overall points (albeit a lot less games).
Doesn't include guys like Bergeron who will never be top of the league in points, but are likely first ballot HOF'ers and First team Olympians.
Doesn't include Dmen who are better.
Doesn't include goalies that are world class.
Matthews is an excellent young centre with the ceiling of being a top 5-10 player in the league over the next 4-5 years... at this time, he's firmly outside the top 25.
Outside the top 50 in overall points (albeit a lot less games).
Doesn't include guys like Bergeron who will never be top of the league in points, but are likely first ballot HOF'ers and First team Olympians.
Doesn't include Dmen who are better.
Doesn't include goalies that are world class.
Matthews is an excellent young centre with the ceiling of being a top 5-10 player in the league over the next 4-5 years... at this time, he's firmly outside the top 25.
What's the argument against Matthews right now?
Personally, I don't think he's top 10 yet (but he's definitely in that conversation, so you can't really say someone is wrong).
Since I doubt anyone here can put up a definitive top-10 list here.
For people comparing Stamko's stats this year, are you also saying Crosby is not a top-30 player anymore? And, that Josh Bailey is 2nd best player, better than McDavid?
Personally, I don't think he's top 10 yet (but he's definitely in that conversation, so you can't really say someone is wrong).
Since I doubt anyone here can put up a definitive top-10 list here.
For people comparing Stamko's stats this year, are you also saying Crosby is not a top-30 player anymore? And, that Josh Bailey is 2nd best player, better than McDavid?
CantLoseWithMatthews
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2015
- 49,735
- 59,494
Well you tried. I don't understand how you can find the obvious counter to one of your weak arguments and still decide to post it anyway
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 49,023
- 29,848
Crosby has a track record and has earned the benefit of the doubt. Matthews was elevated into top 10 status by some based on one season. Different scenarios.
Stamkos is a more interesting case IMO. I don't think I'd put him in the top 10. While he has a track record, recent trends were not positive, and he clearly seems to be the second best player on his line. Stamkos is having a Nick Backstrom-esque season, except he's a good ol' Canadian boy who is going to get a disproportionate amount of the credit.
weems
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2008
- 18,488
- 12,534
Volica
Papa Shango
- May 15, 2012
- 21,700
- 11,407
So, one point that I even point out is flawed, and the entire argument is void. Nice argument. Next.
General Zodd
Registered User
I'm definitely a big Matthews fan. Like him even more as he said he wouldn't take part in any kneeling bullshit..
OurlordAndSaviorKuch
Number one Bull$hit
CantLoseWithMatthews
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2015
- 49,735
- 59,494
well it is all bad, but I have to question your willingness to have a legitimate discussion if you're willing to use an argument you don't even like as a point against Matthews
Finnipeg
Registered User
- Feb 14, 2017
- 63
- 115
I do find it funny that certain bruins fans have come out of the woodwork since their team has been on a heater. They were no where to be found when they are losing. To the topic at hand, people need to realize that out of all of these players that people say are better, only a COUPLE started their careers with a better first two seasons than Auston. Was Kucherov was who is today during the start of his career? No. I dislike the leafs but people have their blinders on if you don't think Matthews is already knocking at the top 10's door.
Nizdizzle
Offseason Is The Worst Season
If one person says something, its basically applied to our entire fanbase for the foreseeable future.
Years ago, Anton Stralman's coach in Sweden said that he reminded him of Lidstrom. Leaf fans were mocked for the following year or two for saying Stralman = Lidstrom, even though no one had ever said anything like that. The HF hivemind got a hold of it and everyone just assumed it was true.
A player who can produce at 5v5 is generally more valuable than a player who can produce primarily on the PP, as 5v5 production is harder to find and acquire.
On top of that, Matthews is still producing fine on the PP considering he has the 14th highest P/60 on the PP since he entered the league of players to play over 200 minutes on the powerplay. It is just that the Leafs choose to run 2 powerplays rather than stack the top unit. It works fine considering since the start of 2016/17 until now, the Leafs have the leagues 3rd best powerplay.
Last edited:
JetsHomer
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2011
- 10,941
- 3,146
How come this argument is always used to support Matthews, but when I brought it up in the Nylander vs Ehlers debate it was always written off completely? Ehlers produced far more at 5v5 last year but Leafs fans insisted it didn’t matter and that all production should be looked at evenly? Funny how that changed now
Or are you ready to admit that Ehlers was far superior to Nylander last year, as the 5v5 numbers showed?
weems
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2008
- 18,488
- 12,534
Based on his age, position and skill set I would take AM before the players in bold.
HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
How come this argument is always used to support Matthews, but when I brought it up in the Nylander vs Ehlers debate it was always written off completely? Ehlers produced far more at 5v5 last year but Leafs fans insisted it didn’t matter and that all production should be looked at evenly? Funny how that changed now
Or are you ready to admit that Ehlers was far superior to Nylander last year, as the 5v5 numbers showed?
You are right.
Sincerely
Leafs fans.
Linda Bacon
Canada fan
- Nov 7, 2017
- 353
- 310
Critical13
Fear is the mind-killer.
Something crazy about Matthews - right now, there is an article on TSN about how Laine is a premier sniper in the NHL. HFBoards says he might have the best shot of all time. He's considered the best young goalscorer in the league.
As of right now, Auston Matthews is on pace for 46.4 goals while playing C against the top shutdown players in the NHL.
Patrik Laine, premier sniper and best young goalscorer in the NHL, is on pace for 36.9 goals while playing as a winger against teams 2nd and 3rd units.
I know people are beaten over the head with AM threads, but he deserves all the love.
As of right now, Auston Matthews is on pace for 46.4 goals while playing C against the top shutdown players in the NHL.
Patrik Laine, premier sniper and best young goalscorer in the NHL, is on pace for 36.9 goals while playing as a winger against teams 2nd and 3rd units.
I know people are beaten over the head with AM threads, but he deserves all the love.
Critical13
Fear is the mind-killer.
How come this argument is always used to support Matthews, but when I brought it up in the Nylander vs Ehlers debate it was always written off completely? Ehlers produced far more at 5v5 last year but Leafs fans insisted it didn’t matter and that all production should be looked at evenly? Funny how that changed now
Or are you ready to admit that Ehlers was far superior to Nylander last year, as the 5v5 numbers showed?
Ehlers is better right now, don't have a problem saying it. I still believe Willy is being groomed for a C role, but as of today, Ehlers is the better winger.
- Status
