Why a Zach Hyman - Toronto extension, isn't a closed door, and may still even be likely.

[usernamezrhardtodo]

the main screw up Dubas made was to not sign them the second they became eligible... i was always anticipating a 7-8-9 for the 3 of them (nylander-marner-matthews) or slightly higher for Marner/Matthews, but, that extra season when they exploded offensively screwed that opportunity.
during the Marner negotiations, i would have traded him. ...that one PO'd me more than Nylander.

He was trotting out the "If you have time...use it" line to explain the lack of urgency in signing Willy. To be fair...He barely became GM before Willy hit RFA...so you can't blame him on not starting it the year before. I have a feeling Lou left Willy so long on purpose. It's like he dared Shanny to boot him upstairs with the 3 contracts left to sign....Shanny booted him upstairs and we all got booted afterwards...

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think the issue with Nylander is not so much his AAV is too rich...its about right for his level of play. It's the fact that Dubas in the end Caved and made him whole. He faced no consequence for his actions. That led Marner to push his buttons even more and here we are.

A lot of anonymous GM's had said when Dubas got hired that the Willy contract would set the tone for the rest of them and they were right. He failed on getting any kind of real deal there, although he didn't over-pay him ...he still caused some blood to trickle into the water for Ferris to take him to the cleaners. I assure you there is no way Marner does this shit with Lou in charge...like Lou or Hate him...there is just no way it happens.

Even if we pretend Lou isn't a spineless wimp in contract negotiations that gives guys like Kovalchuk 100 million and pays millions and 1st round picks in fines for the privilege, let's say he lets Nylander sit the year out as "punishment". Now you have 3 RFAs negotiating against you as a block, one of those RFAs is pissed off, and if you don't give them what they want they sit out a year or take poison-pill offer sheets and you don't have a 1C, 1RW, 2RW. Best case scenario, he trades them for the mediocre grinders he loves so much because he has literally 0 trade leverage with them.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Nope.

Willy was significantly overpaid as well.

He was paid more than his direct comparables that had better stats. Also more front-loaded/signing bonuses, and less ufa years than his direct comparables.

That was not a 20 goal/60 point contract.

Nylander was overpaid in the hopes he gets better. He did. So it appears he has a fair contract.

Bu other teams (with non-rookie gm's) pay their players based on what they've proven, not on what they hope they become. Mackinen was paid on what he had proven. If they paid him based on what they hoped he became, he would have signed for 10 mil plus.

Hence, I stated in retrospect..

 

[notbias]

Nope.

Willy was significantly overpaid as well.

He was paid more than his direct comparables that had better stats. Also more front-loaded/signing bonuses, and less ufa years than his direct comparables.

That was not a 20 goal/60 point contract.

Nylander was overpaid in the hopes he gets better. He did. So it appears he has a fair contract.

Bu other teams (with non-rookie gm's) pay their players based on what they've proven, not on what they hope they become. Mackinen was paid on what he had proven. If they paid him based on what they hoped he became, he would have signed for 10 mil plus.

Nylander was paid market value.
Most people expected 6.5-7.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Even if we pretend Lou isn't a spineless wimp in contract negotiations that gives guys like Kovalchuk 100 million and pays millions and 1st round picks in fines for the privilege, let's say he lets Nylander sit the year out as "punishment". Now you have 3 RFAs negotiating against you as a block, one of those RFAs is pissed off, and if you don't give them what they want they sit out a year or take poison-pill offer sheets and you don't have a 1C, 1RW, 2RW. Best case scenario, he trades them for the mediocre grinders he loves so much because he has literally 0 trade leverage with them.

While I agree that Lou has made some bad deals...I also think there is no way he caves to 3 kids like Dubas did. He might over-pay someone getting to UFA but I really have a hard time thinking he would give in to Marner and Nylander.

My question to you is this: If RFA's have so much leverage against the team...why aren't all the GM's paying out Dubas Money (TM)?

 

[Martin Skoula]

While I agree that Lou has made some bad deals...I also think there is no way he caves to 3 kids like Dubas did. He might over-pay someone getting to UFA but I really have a hard time thinking he would give in to Marner and Nylander.

My question to you is this: If RFA's have so much leverage against the team...why aren't all the GM's paying out Dubas Money (TM)?

Find me one other GM that had 3 players of that level all RFA within a year of each other. If Rantanen MacK and Landeskog were all RFAs at the same time, they'd have a ton more leverage than they had independently. If they choose to be difficult and sit out until December, you can't even replace them with UFAs to tide you over, you have a basement team for 3 months.

 

[Gallagbi]

Find me one other GM that had 3 players of that level all RFA within a year of each other. If Rantanen MacK and Landeskog were all RFAs at the same time, they'd have a ton more leverage than they had independently. If they choose to be difficult and sit out until December, you can't even replace them with UFAs to tide you over, you have a basement team for 3 months.

How far apart were Sid, Geno and Staal? Couldn't be much different, maybe an extra year?

 

[orbiter11]

Find me one other GM that had 3 players of that level all RFA within a year of each other. If Rantanen MacK and Landeskog were all RFAs at the same time, they'd have a ton more leverage than they had independently. If they choose to be difficult and sit out until December, you can't even replace them with UFAs to tide you over, you have a basement team for 3 months.[/QUOT

 

[Egghead1999]

Find me one other GM that had 3 players of that level all RFA within a year of each other. If Rantanen MacK and Landeskog were all RFAs at the same time, they'd have a ton more leverage than they had independently. If they choose to be difficult and sit out until December, you can't even replace them with UFAs to tide you over, you have a basement team for 3 months.

C'mon, everyone with any brains at all knows that he did a poor job on the BIG three contracts, overpaid but not in the max team. The only silver lining is that he did not give MM an NMC and the contract was front-loaded.

 

[shelf]

How far apart were Sid, Geno and Staal? Couldn't be much different, maybe an extra year?

Sid got a 5 x 17.3% and hadn't won a single playoff series when he signed. It was Sidney f***ing Crosby though. But ya if your point was those players signed for less then you are mistaken

 

[Martin Skoula]

Everyone wants the Leafs to succeed, but if you think there was no other way to handle the BIG THREE you've got blinders on. My thoughts are that Lou would have got Matthews for 7 to 8 years guaranteed for probably 10.5 11 max. He would have bridged Marner 8 to 8.5 and Nylander might not be on the team(although his contract is the only one I thought Dubas didn't screw up, and made sense). This is why you don't give the keys to the city to a 30 year old rookie Gm, its illogical. Especially considering we may not get a first overall pick for another 20 or 30 years.

Lou's best case scenario is he gets Matthews and Marner at a million or two less collectively and has to trade a holdout Nylander at a loss. I don't want to know what he'd do with that money, we probably have another Marleau on our hands in that situation.

I get criticizing how Dubas handled it, but Lou can also be bad at the same time. I'm sure Yzerman could have gotten them signed for numbers everyone likes, why not use him as the fantasy fill in?

 

[yubbers]

Nylander was paid market value.
Most people expected 6.5-7.

The fact he got more than pasta proves this is nonsense.

 

[MagicalRazor]

4.5x
Is my max i’m not a GM I know.
But Covid messed up the cap.

He’s a great player and all but I’m sure we could find a decent replacement for a fair price

 

[orbiter11]

Lou's best case scenario is he gets Matthews and Marner at a million or two less collectively and has to trade a holdout Nylander at a loss. I don't want to know what he'd do with that money, we probably have another Marleau on our hands in that situation.

I get criticizing how Dubas handled it, but Lou can also be bad at the same time. I'm sure Yzerman could have gotten them signed for numbers everyone likes, why not use him as the fantasy fill in?

I get what your saying about Lou(you don't want to give heavy contracts to players like Leo, Martin etc.) But singing Marleau for leadership and points for an extra year and maybe keeping Leo instead of substituting him with a low salary filer, I can live with. We needed a conservative approach with this young new team, and definitely a consistent message that Lou ran the Leafs not 3 young unproven players, regardless of there potential. There's only one player in the world you back up the truck for and thats Mcdavid.

 

[egd27]

Klayton Keller makes more than Nylander if you want a 'comparable'. ...he of a career high 23 goals in his rookie season who hasnt been able to crack 20 goals since.
geez, JVR makes more than Nylander, and JVR has sucked since he left the Leafs. ...there are many players paid more than Nylander who arent nearly as good (and many older, and worse)
and younger ones getting paid for not producing like Hischier who hasnt matched his rookie output of 52 points with a 7.25 cap hit
Nylander may not have a single 40 goal season like Skinner, but, he also doesnt carry a 9mill cap hit for a career high 63 pts

So, i think more than just "leafs" fans would defend paying Nylander what he's getting.

So you're going to use worse contracts to make Nylander's look better? Don't see the problem with that approach huh?

 

[Gallagbi]

Sid got a 5 x 17.3% and hadn't won a single playoff series when he signed. It was Sidney f***ing Crosby though. But ya if your point was those players signed for less then you are mistaken

My point was more than those 3 are the only similar quality RFAs that I can recall in a similar span. I think Geno and Sid were on a different tier and I personally have trouble with comparing the eras given the expected growth under that nNHL timeliness v. The Matthews/Marner signing. It's only gotten worse with covid for cap growth, but I wouldn't hold that against any GM

 

[egd27]

Why should we blame the $2 million player (who was also just coming off an injury) more than the stars or the coach who kept playing them together?

It's easier than admitting the truth that $22M in Cap isn't able to deliver when it most matters.

 

[Gallagbi]

It's easier than admitting the truth that $22M in Cap isn't able to deliver when it most matters.

Hear me out here

Both the stars and Hyman underperformed. Regular production, especially given the quality of chances, for either likely wins us the series.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Lou's best case scenario is he gets Matthews and Marner at a million or two less collectively and has to trade a holdout Nylander at a loss. I don't want to know what he'd do with that money, we probably have another Marleau on our hands in that situation.

I get criticizing how Dubas handled it, but Lou can also be bad at the same time. I'm sure Yzerman could have gotten them signed for numbers everyone likes, why not use him as the fantasy fill in?

History shows us that Lou would not have capitulated to the RFA's....as far as UFA's like Kovelchuk...that's a different story. All I know is if my RFA's are so eager to goose the rest of the team for every penny in their pocket...good riddance and that goes for AM as well. We have a very star centric vision of this team and it inflates ego's to stupid levels. I want a TEAM...not a bunch of mercenaries.

 

[Fogelhund]

The fact he got more than pasta proves this is nonsense.

The fact that people keep bringing up Pasta, shows how little people understand the numbers behind these things

Pasta was a 0.715 PPG player over his career, when he signed at 8.89% of the cap.
Nylander was a 0.729 PPG player over his career, when he signed at 8.76% of the cap.

Nylander got LESS than Pasta.. this isn't hard to understand. He had been more productive over the three seasons, though Pasta had the one better year.

 

[notbias]

The fact he got more than pasta proves this is nonsense.

The fact your post has no logic makes it nonsense.

Pasta was his comparable

Pasta - 172gp 123p (.715) signed at 8.89%
Nylander - 185gp 135p (.729) signed at 8.76%

Don't let facts get in the way 0f your narrative, but we signed the more productive player for less.

 

[egd27]

Hear me out here

Both the stars and Hyman underperformed. Regular production, especially given the quality of chances, for either likely wins us the series.

Sure, but were you looking to Hyman to put the team on his back and come through in the clutch? I wasn't, nor was anyone else. Hence I have less patience for certain posters that like to use him as the scapegoat.
And even less for those that use him as the escape goat.

 

[Martin Skoula]

History shows us that Lou would not have capitulated to the RFA's....as far as UFA's like Kovelchuk...that's a different story. All I know is if my RFA's are so eager to goose the rest of the team for every penny in their pocket...good riddance and that goes for AM as well. We have a very star centric vision of this team and it inflates ego's to stupid levels. I want a TEAM...not a bunch of mercenaries.

Tanking for for high end talent only to lose it for pennies on the dollar seems like a bad idea. 3 poison pill offer sheets and you're left with a handful of mid-late firsts or disgruntled stars with bloated QOs coming up in 2-4 years. I don't trust Lou to use those picks or cap space effectively based on his track record with us.

 

[Gallagbi]

Sure, but were you looking to Hyman to put the team on his back and come through in the clutch? I wasn't, nor was anyone else. Hence I have less patience for certain posters that like to use him as the scapegoat.
And even less for those that use him as the escape goat.

He didn't need to put anyone on his back.

He finds the open net in Game 7 and were tied in a new game with fans in the stands. Hell, expand that to the other point blank chances he had that game.

Just like you can't put it all on him, you also can't overlook the fact he underperformed.

 

[bpower]

Sure, but were you looking to Hyman to put the team on his back and come through in the clutch? I wasn't, nor was anyone else. Hence I have less patience for certain posters that like to use him as the scapegoat.
And even less for those that use him as the escape goat.

bahahaha, one of the best English errors Ive read on here. This one made me legitimately laugh out loud.