Proposal: Who's Interested? Chiarot for two 2nd's and a B+ prospect

[Habs Halifax]

Goalpost shifting. There was no reason to compare the two. You did it and got destroyed with actual numbers. then the usual "my garbage player would look gook on an elite team" argument comes out.

Not really. The numbers are close in many areas except for Giveaways/60. I'm not saying he would return the same value as what MacDonagh would if he was a pending UFA on the market but Chiarot's impact on the ice is not negative like some are trying to make it to be.

I compared him to others as well. Post 77.

I'd like to see that same info posted for last years playoffs (between MacDonagh and Chiarot). Lets see how they changed cause that's the biggest point with Chiarot... how he raises his game in the playoffs.

Don't like the MacDonagh comparisons? How about Muzzin?

Also, I'd be curious if that poster never replies back with playoff stats? I'm guessing that he only replies if the numbers look bad towards Chiarot but if they look good, you never see it?

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

One player is providing elite defense, the other isn't.

Got any other comparisons?

Oof. So much for "he's as good as McDonaugh!!!"

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Not really. The numbers are close in many areas except for Giveaways/60. I'm not saying he would return the same value as what MacDonagh would if he was a pending UFA on the market but Chiarot's impact on the ice is not negative like some are trying to make it to be.

I compared him to others as well. Post 77.

I'd like to see that same info posted for last years playoffs (between MacDonagh and Chiarot). Lets see how they changed cause that's the biggest point with Chiarot... how he raises his game in the playoffs.

Don't like the MacDonagh comparisons? How about Muzzin?

Giveaways/60 is a pretty damn important stat for a dman. Many of those end up in your net.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Giveaways/60 is a pretty damn important stat for a dman. Many of those end up in your net.

Yes and I never hid it. I'm the one who posted it to begin with bud. I posted both pros and cons. There is no bias like you think there is. Did you see the post where I showed others who also have high giveaways/60? Or did you bypass that cause it goes against your narrative?

I'm willing to look at both the good and bad. Are you? I have my doubts on that. You'll take all the negatives and omit any positives in your narratives. You're not the only one doing it either

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Yes and I never hid it. I'm the one who posted it to begin with bud. I posted both pros and cons. There is no bias like you think there is. Did you see the post where I showed others who also have high giveaways/60? Or did you bypass that cause it goes against your narrative?

I'm willing to look at both the good and bad. Are you? I have my doubts on that. You'll take all the negatives and omit any positives in your narratives. You're not the only one doing it either

Your biased showed when you blocked @The90 for showing you the truth.

 

[The90]

Your biased showed when you blocked @The90 for showing you the truth.

Incoming ‘he was confrontational with the truth’ comment.

 

[abo9]

If the goal is to get Chiarot to play a lesser role, his value isnt that high. Maybe 2nd + C prospect.

He's absolutely playing a lesser role on a contender.
But it doesn't make the value asked in OP unrealistic.

There's numerous example of #4-6D rentals that have a similar play style to Chiarot who fetched such value. Recently, Savard is an example I'm tired to use. Others in the thread have brought up Dillon. Even Marco Scandella got a 2nd and 4th round pick.

It really depends on who else is available and how bad those playoff teams think they need that type of D. Considering that Montreal made it to the Finals last year with a bunch of that type of D's, I think some pretenders might be tempted to emulate some of that in the playoffs, bringing the price higher.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Your biased showed when you blocked @The90 for showing you the truth.

Nah, it's the attitude I can live without. There are many approaches and I'm very open to both pros and cons. If you want to be respectful and debate (even in disagreements), we can have good conversations. If you want act like others with attitude and throw out insults, that's another story.

The guy that has recently posted the Chiarot and Macdonagh numbers has yet to show the playoff stats? I'm waiting . Usually, from what I have seen is it's a one sided approach (witch hunt which is how I labeled it) and if the playoff numbers look better, those are not posted. Like I said, I'm waiting

I just said in your previous post that I was the one who brought up the giveaways/60. You just went along and ignored that and said that I am biased. Come on man

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oof. So much for "he's as good as McDonaugh!!!"

Measures up well against McDonagh in many areas is not the same as "he's as good as McDonagh". Who's the one acting bias or being disingenuous?

Can anybody who is not bias post the playoff numbers? Same format as that post you just replied to? . To be honest, I don't know how that format looks compared to the Regular season and Playoffs but something tells me that if they looked bad, I'd be getting like 10+ posts about it? I don't know so I wait

 

[Weltschmerz]

A 2nd and C prospect? Do you think I loose that bet?

I wouldn't bet on it

But would not rule it out either.

 

[Zonk]

Shut the other Chiarot threads down. The 1st got a lot of posters twisted in a knot

Absolutely agree. The other Chairot thread was ludicrous; there was one poster who must have made over 100 posts that said the same thing over and over and over and over.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Absolutely agree. The other Chairot thread was ludicrous; there was one poster who must have made over 100 posts that said the same thing over and over and over and over.

Personally, I was never on the 1st and prospect bandwagon. Very Low possibility. My price has always been two 2nd's and today I added the B+ prospect cause I feel many teams will offer the two 2nd's and the team that gets him will add the B+ prospect.

From the other shoe (if I was not a Habs fan), that's the approach I would take. I feel there will be many offers but one team will have to add that extra piece to get him. Fair value vs Deadline value. Two different things

 

[lamp9post]

Here is the challenge of relying on a single data point such as Corsi when making player evaluations.

Here are Montreal's D pairings this season that have been on the ice together for at least 125 minutes (which is the site's default) ranked by Corsi%:

You can see that Chiarot and Petry have the most minutes of any pairing and have a Corsi of 50.6% (which is respectable given the state of the team this season).

Now let's look at the Partners of Chiarot and Petry. The only other partner that Petry has played with is Kulak, and that pairing has a lower corsi of 48.8%. So Chiarot certainly hasn't 'dragged down' Petry this season. On the contrary, he's been his most effective partner according to Corsi.

The worst pairing has been Romanov-Savard at 42.2%. How have each of these players fared with Chiarot? Well, with Chiarot, Romanov has a Corsi of 45.3% and Savard has a Corsi of 43%. So Chiarot is a more effective partner for Romanov than Savard, and a more effective partner for Savard than Romanov.

Now let's look at the top 2 pairings according to Corsi. Wow, Romanov-Wideman has a 55% Corsi and Kulak Savard has a 50.9% Corsi. But wait a minute, wasn't the pairing of Romanov-Savard the worst on the team according to Corsi? How can Romanov's Corsi be so much better with Wideman? How can Savard's be so much better with Kulak?

There are two potential conclusions. Either a) Kulak and Wideman are superior players, clearly the best defensemen on the team who precipitate excellence in whoever they are paired with; or b) these higher Corsi numbers are more reflective of sheltered minutes in more offensive situations vs. weaker opposition.

 

[The90]

Here is the challenge of relying on a single data point such as Corsi when making player evaluations.

Here are Montreal's D pairings this season that have been on the ice together for at least 125 minutes (which is the site's default) ranked by Corsi%:

View attachment 511352

You can see that Chiarot and Petry have the most minutes of any pairing and have a Corsi of 50.6% (which is respectable given the state of the team this season).

Now let's look at the Partners of Chiarot and Petry. The only other partner that Petry has played with is Kulak, and that pairing has a lower corsi of 48.8%. So Chiarot certainly hasn't 'dragged down' Petry this season. On the contrary, he's been his most effective partner according to Corsi.

The worst pairing has been Romanov-Savard at 42.2%. How have each of these players fared with Chiarot? Well, with Chiarot, Romanov has a Corsi of 45.3% and Savard has a Corsi of 43%. So Chiarot is a more effective partner for Romanov than Savard, and a more effective partner for Savard than Romanov.

Now let's look at the top 2 pairings according to Corsi. Wow, Romanov-Wideman has a 55% Corsi and Kulak Savard has a 50.9% Corsi. But wait a minute, wasn't the pairing of Romanov-Savard the worst on the team according to Corsi? How can Romanov's Corsi be so much better with Wideman? How can Savard's be so much better with Kulak?

There are two potential conclusions. Either a) Kulak and Wideman are superior players, clearly the best defensemen on the team who precipitate excellence in whoever they are paired with; or b) these higher Corsi numbers are more reflective of sheltered minutes in more offensive situations vs. weaker opposition.

… but the stats that were posted showed him playing with Big Buff and Weber, as well as bottom pairing minutes and having the same negative impacts compared to the rest of the potential d partners.

 

[BruinsJoe]

come on 2x2rd + a c prospect for Chariot...a 3rd pick maybe + a c prospect...but come on!

 

[Habs Halifax]

come on 2x2rd + a c prospect for Chariot...a 3rd pick maybe + a c prospect...but come on!

Can you re-write that one out? Not sure if you are trying to be funny or if you are being serious . I'll bet on it's a Bruns fan trying to be funny.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Here is the challenge of relying on a single data point such as Corsi when making player evaluations.

Here are Montreal's D pairings this season that have been on the ice together for at least 125 minutes (which is the site's default) ranked by Corsi%:

View attachment 511352

You can see that Chiarot and Petry have the most minutes of any pairing and have a Corsi of 50.6% (which is respectable given the state of the team this season).

Now let's look at the Partners of Chiarot and Petry. The only other partner that Petry has played with is Kulak, and that pairing has a lower corsi of 48.8%. So Chiarot certainly hasn't 'dragged down' Petry this season. On the contrary, he's been his most effective partner according to Corsi.

The worst pairing has been Romanov-Savard at 42.2%. How have each of these players fared with Chiarot? Well, with Chiarot, Romanov has a Corsi of 45.3% and Savard has a Corsi of 43%. So Chiarot is a more effective partner for Romanov than Savard, and a more effective partner for Savard than Romanov.

Now let's look at the top 2 pairings according to Corsi. Wow, Romanov-Wideman has a 55% Corsi and Kulak Savard has a 50.9% Corsi. But wait a minute, wasn't the pairing of Romanov-Savard the worst on the team according to Corsi? How can Romanov's Corsi be so much better with Wideman? How can Savard's be so much better with Kulak?

There are two potential conclusions. Either a) Kulak and Wideman are superior players, clearly the best defensemen on the team who precipitate excellence in whoever they are paired with; or b) these higher Corsi numbers are more reflective of sheltered minutes in more offensive situations vs. weaker opposition.

That was kind of my point with the "Drags everyone down" narrative. I call those a witch hunt report and it can be done to a lot of NHL players. Seems like posters see those and it fits their narrative where they ignore everything else and if you counter it, you are being bias.

I'm still waiting on the same format one guy posted about the regular season numbers towards MacDonagh and how that looks in the playoffs. Did he miss it or is avoiding it?

After looking into it deeper, I see a lot of comparisons in terms of D zone usage and various stats when measured against Muzzin. At the end of the day, Someone is going to get Chiarot and will be happy to play with him vs against him. What the return will be? Guess work

 

[Stewie Griffin]

8 hours, and 5 pages later and the OP who asked who's interested is still arguing at people who are not interested at his posted price.

 

[BKarchitect]

8 hours, and 5 pages later and the OP who asked who's interested is still arguing at people who are not interested at his posted price.

And even posters who agree that he may get such a price and would be a quality addition for many teams.

Really bizarre.

 

[Habs Halifax]

8 hours, and 5 pages later and the OP who asked who's interested is still arguing at people who are not interested at his posted price.

There were a few posters who said they were interested. What's the point of those not interested even being here to begin with? To devalue Chiarot? .

I don't care what he is "worth". We only care about what he actually returns. Why are some other posters so obsessed with what Chiarot returns if they are not even interested? That's the real problem here.

This is not a value thread conversation. It's a proposal and you are either interested or not. The derail here is posters coming in to devalue Chairot and stop pretending that is not taking place

A lot of posters here to talk about his value and saying he will return higher but he's not "worth" that. I don't care what you think he is worth, I only care if you would trade for him and if the asking price is something you are interested in. Stay focused people

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

8 hours, and 5 pages later and the OP who asked who's interested is still arguing at people who are not interested at his posted price.

Tune in next week for the "Chariot for 3rd + prospect, who's interested" thread.

 

[lamp9post]

… but the stats that were posted showed him playing with Big Buff and Weber, as well as bottom pairing minutes and having the same negative impacts compared to the rest of the potential d partners.

And?

FWIW, here is the same table from '20-'21 when Chiarot played with Weber:

Shortened season, so Chiarot didn't play with anyone else for more than the 125 minute filter. Weber played with Edmunson for a stretch and posted a similar Corsi%. So Chiarot didn't didn't 'bring down' anyone in terms of Corsi according to these charts from 20-21 and 21-22, unless perhaps you look at smaller sample sizes (<125 minutes).

If anything, these Corsi numbers just show how the players were deployed. Not really a big surprise that Chiarot-Weber would have a lower Corsi given that they matched up with the likes of Matthews and McDavids last year.

Really not sure Chiarot's time back in Winnipeg alongside Byfuglien is relevant to the current discussion, but I might take a look there too, just out of curiosity.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

I would give Chariot a try....maybe we can ride him into the 2nd round.

 

[The90]

And?

FWIW, here is the same table from '20-'21 when Chiarot played with Weber:

View attachment 511365

Shortened season, so Chiarot didn't play with anyone else for more than the 125 minute filter. Weber played with Edmunson for a stretch and posted a similar Corsi%. So Chiarot didn't didn't 'bring down' anyone in terms of Corsi according to these charts from 20-21 and 21-22, unless perhaps you look at smaller sample sizes (<125 minutes).

If anything, these Corsi numbers just show how the players were deployed. Not really a big surprise that Chiarot-Weber would have a lower Corsi given that they matched up with the likes of Matthews and McDavids last year.

Really not sure Chiarot's time back in Winnipeg alongside Byfuglien is relevant to the current discussion, but I might take a look there too, just out of curiosity.

Ok so give us weber without chiarot

 

[lamp9post]

And here is Winnipeg's chart from Chiarot's last year there:

Chiarot was the only defenseman Byfuglien played meaningful minutes with. So, as I mentioned in my previous post, those examples that show increased Corsi% for Buff when he plays with other players are likely to be drawn from small sample sizes (<125 minutes).