Who would Detroit take at 4?

[The Zetterberg Era]

@hanshin44 Using hockey IQ to try to argue against Perfetti is not a great idea. I get he might not have the two-way ability though the professionals don't agree and guys with compete issues don't go up in McKenzie's final rankings often if at all...

I won't list my opinion on his hockey IQ. Let's just say Craig Button gave Perfetti a 6 out of 5 in terms of hockey IQ. I believe the last time he was moved enough by a prospect to do that it was giving McDavid a 6 out of 5 in skating. Listen it can be discouraging that some of us think Rossi is closed to a finished product and that really is a compliment to his work ethic. I get the people that believe he will find a way to continue to build in a big way.

I don't because I don't believe in his skating and I do think it is a whole different ball-game to play his playing style with his size and athletic deficiencies at the next level. I think his character is exceptional, I would be willing to take it at some point in the teens and hope it all works out. But he doesn't have an NHL comparable and he certainly isn't Datsyuk that was a raw undersized low round pick that started contributing as a big time player in his mid-20s. He doesn't have his one on one ability, he doesn't have the additional two inches and 18 inch longer stick. He doesn't have his vision or finesse. He plays a grinding style and he plays it well. But I will say again name the average to below average skater that is sub 5'10" that is playing center in this league especially in a harder grinding way.

Marchand is a better comparison in terms of the long-term where he likely winds up out at the wing. Marchand is pretty elusive, with better skating and even then the third most important player on his line and a guy that took a while to develop into that and wasn't somebody anybody would put a top 10 pick on in his draft year. You don't draft guys like Rossi at four because it is exceedingly dangerous. You can look at the guys that hit homeruns over the last 20 years. There is a bigger list of slower undersized guys that flat out didn't become front line players in this league. Robbi Fabbri mostly injuries, Nic Petan, Sam Gagner, Rocco Girmaldi. Maybe Rossi is this unicorn, I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[J15]

I really don't get why Rossi is being overlooked imo.
Rossi has an insane work-ethic, always looking to improve himself and driven, he's got that competitive edge to him that really the team needs more-so then ever. The size issues with Rossi that a lot of people are talking about aren't really as large of a factor that would work against him. Marchand has the same height and a similar skill-set. Bahl (A 6'7 defender on the 67s) was saying earlier this year that he couldn't knock Rossi off the puck in practice.

I get the impression that Rossi's work ethic and attitude have actually hurt his value in some posters eyes. People assume that if you take a player who isn't as well known for their effort and off ice work then there's easy room for improvement. When they see Rossi they assume that because he already carries himself like a pro, he's hit a cap and won't improve as much. I've seen several posts echoing similar thoughts, and to be honest they might be some of the worst takes I've read on this site. It's hard to teach work-ethic, drive, and competitiveness. It's not a given that any of these prospects will ever became super hard workers after they're drafted. I promise that there will be plenty of room for growth in his game in the next few years. Being driven and detail oriented in juniors is not something that should be held against him.

 

[Bench]

There is a bigger list of slower undersized guys that flat out didn't become front line players in this league.

Not even drafted, but I always think of Chris Conner. He didn't have near the offense of Rossi, but he was fast as hell and has a knack for scoring. He's a guy who has always been 60 points like clockwork in the AHL but could not translate to the NHL... mainly due to size. And he was a winger.

Being undersized, you can still get by in the lower leagues, even be great. But that jump to the NHL, where everyone is big and fast, it such a different story.

I'm going to be rooting for Rossi, I love the small guys getting it done, but it's a reach. Love to be wrong, but we have basically no example of it working out. Like you said, the best ones are all going to be wingers. I can't imagine that's not where he ends up. And he could thrive there.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

I get the impression that Rossi's work ethic and attitude have actually hurt his value in some posters eyes. People assume that if you take a player who isn't as well known for their effort and off ice work then there's easy room for improvement. When they see Rossi they assume that because he already carries himself like a pro, he's hit a cap and won't improve as much. I've seen several posts echoing similar thoughts, and to be honest they might be some of the worst takes I've read on this site. It's hard to teach work-ethic, drive, and competitiveness. It's not a given that any of these prospects will ever became super hard workers after they're drafted. I promise that there will be plenty of room for growth in his game in the next few years. Being driven and detail oriented in juniors is not something that should be held against him.

It's always been my impression that hockey ops people love that kind of attitude a lot more than fans do, too.

 

[J15]

It's always been my impression that hockey ops people love that kind of attitude a lot more than fans do, too.

And for good reason I'd imagine. When you actually work with these players year after year you can probably see the correlation between attitude, work ethic, and success pretty clearly. For fans that only have access to highlight montages and 30 second long interviews there's basically no way of knowing what a lot of these players are really like behind the scenes.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I get the impression that Rossi's work ethic and attitude have actually hurt his value in some posters eyes. People assume that if you take a player who isn't as well known for their effort and off ice work then there's easy room for improvement. When they see Rossi they assume that because he already carries himself like a pro, he's hit a cap and won't improve as much. I've seen several posts echoing similar thoughts, and to be honest they might be some of the worst takes I've read on this site. It's hard to teach work-ethic, drive, and competitiveness. It's not a given that any of these prospects will ever became super hard workers after they're drafted. I promise that there will be plenty of room for growth in his game in the next few years. Being driven and detail oriented in juniors is not something that should be held against him.

It has far more to do with peaking athletically and not having a lot left in the ceiling. That he isn't learning new tricks he is taking them all up to a higher skill level.

I love compete levels on guys and I love guys that work hard. I will root for him to make it, I just am totally unwilling to spend a top 10 pick on someone like that. Lots of guys work real hard that never make it or don't have the impact you would hope for.

I always say beyond the requisite talent and athletic ability consistency and hard work are what I value second. Unfortunately I don't think Rossi has the requisite talent and athletic ability to overcome his frame, certainly not at center for me. While he can use his development curve to his advantage on junior age players, it gets real hard to swim in the deep waters that are the NHL.

I think people believing that an average 5'8" skater is going to be the one that bucks the trend and is the unicorn prospect is a mistake. But I did spend an entire season arguing Quinn Hughes would be able to play despite his size. Of course he had elite skating and a lot of room left to grow, but maybe the Rossi crowd will be right in a similar way.

 

[Gniwder]

Not even drafted, but I always think of Chris Conner. He didn't have near the offense of Rossi, but he was fast as hell and has a knack for scoring. He's a guy who has always been 60 points like clockwork in the AHL but could not translate to the NHL... mainly due to size. And he was a winger.

Being undersized, you can still get by in the lower leagues, even be great. But that jump to the NHL, where everyone is big and fast, it such a different story.

I'm going to be rooting for Rossi, I love the small guys getting it done, but it's a reach. Love to be wrong, but we have basically no example of it working out. Like you said, the best ones are all going to be wingers. I can't imagine that's not where he ends up. And he could thrive there.

Mathieu Perreault is undersized, average skater, no flash, but lots of effort type player. He's listed at 5'10" but that must be Canadian inches, because he certainly doesn't come anywhere close to being average NHL height.

I'm against drafting an undersized player with a top pick unless they have exceptional skill or speed. Effort only gets a player so far...

 

[J15]

It has far more to do with peaking athletically and not having a lot left in the ceiling. That he isn't learning new tricks he is taking them all up to a higher skill level.

I love compete levels on guys and I love guys that work hard. I will root for him to make it, I just am totally unwilling to spend a top 10 pick on someone like that. Lots of guys work real hard that never make it or don't have the impact you would hope for.

I always say beyond the requisite talent and athletic ability consistency and hard work are what I value second. Unfortunately I don't think Rossi has the requisite talent and athletic ability to overcome his frame, certainly not at center for me. While he can use his development curve to his advantage on junior age players, it gets real hard to swim in the deep waters that are the NHL.

I think people believing that an average 5'8" skater is going to be the one that bucks the trend and is the unicorn prospect is a mistake. But I did spend an entire season arguing Quinn Hughes would be able to play despite his size. Of course he had elite skating and a lot of room left to grow, but maybe the Rossi crowd will be right in a similar way.

But where’s the evidence for any of the bolded? Saying that he’s peaked athletically, or that he doesn’t have any new tricks to learn seems pretty baseless. Most of the interviews I’ve seen from his coaches suggest that the areas he needs to improve most are related to strength, speed, and explosiveness.

Concerns about his size are valid, and I couldn’t blame someone for wanting to pass on him because of it. I don’t understand how you can say he lacks requisite talent though.

 

[Henkka]

Is it me or did Perfetti get a lot more votes ever since the lottery ended?

You should go there to main board read old Perfetti discussion, so at least nothing in biased.

C/LW Cole Perfetti - Saginaw Spirit, OHL (2020 Draft)

This is just crazy. My opinion is changing every day.

Currently I think we should take the biggest risk/reward pick in Perfetti or, make the safest possible pick and take Lundell.

Take nothing from between.

I dunno.

 

[Henkka]

I think people believing that an average 5'8" skater is going to be the one that bucks the trend and is the unicorn prospect is a mistake. But I did spend an entire season arguing Quinn Hughes would be able to play despite his size. Of course he had elite skating and a lot of room left to grow, but maybe the Rossi crowd will be right in a similar way.

5'8 average skater, former natural center and great point-producer = Jiri Hudler in NHL ?

Like, meh.

 

[ShanahanMan]

Watching some more vid on Perfetti, I noticed he skates VERY slouched over, moreso than any other player I’ve seen.

Is this just a development thing or playing style that doesnt really matter, or could it be a concern? My thing is, slouching could potentially = head down, which would not bode well in the NHL.

 

[bcspragu]

Who else did you hear this from? I'm just saying, I don't think any GM out there is going to show their hand before the chips are in. It's one thing for analysts like Cosentino to speculate, because it's their job, so I'm wondering if we have heard any reputable source attached to the organization mentioning Perfetti.

I like Perfetti, the skill is undeniable. But to me, he's a winger, and we already have a bunch of wingers. Also, I know Yzerman loves players with character, and Perfetti has a few red flags. They could be warranted, or could also just be media driven bull****.

Perfetti had character red flags? Where have you heard that from? Kid has a charity he put together with his family to help kids with cancer. Kid oozes character

 

[HoweFan]

I have this uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that Steve might be considering Zary or Jarvis At 4. I think they will be really good players but just not at four

 

[lilidk]

I have this uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that Steve might be considering Zary or Jarvis At 4. I think they will be really good players but just not at four

Good reason to trade down.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

5'8 average skater, former natural center and great point-producer = Jiri Hudler in NHL ?

Like, meh.

What the frick was wrong with Jiri Hudler? He was good player drafted in late 2nd round.

 

[hanshin44]

I get the impression that Rossi's work ethic and attitude have actually hurt his value in some posters eyes. People assume that if you take a player who isn't as well known for their effort and off ice work then there's easy room for improvement. When they see Rossi they assume that because he already carries himself like a pro, he's hit a cap and won't improve as much. I've seen several posts echoing similar thoughts, and to be honest they might be some of the worst takes I've read on this site. It's hard to teach work-ethic, drive, and competitiveness. It's not a given that any of these prospects will ever became super hard workers after they're drafted. I promise that there will be plenty of room for growth in his game in the next few years. Being driven and detail oriented in juniors is not something that should be held against him.

It makes absolutely no sense to hold something against a player because he's the most NHL ready. Just because a player hasn't emerged, doesn't mean he suddenly has more potential then someone who is firing on all cylinders. Just because Rossi is pushing himself more-so then other players, it's assumed he's going to not amount to as much as other players. His work-ethic is working against him in the eyes of many, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'd rather have a driven, dedicated player who wants to learn how to be the best player he can, over a player who has more holes in his game and isn't as dedicated.

But where’s the evidence for any of the bolded? Saying that he’s peaked athletically, or that he doesn’t have any new tricks to learn seems pretty baseless. Most of the interviews I’ve seen from his coaches suggest that the areas he needs to improve most are related to strength, speed, and explosiveness.

Concerns about his size are valid, and I couldn’t blame someone for wanting to pass on him because of it. I don’t understand how you can say he lacks requisite talent though.

It's valid if you've never seen him play and look only at his height. He weighs more then Perfetti does. At his height he gets knocked off the puck a lot less then Perfetti does.
The difference between ‎5'11 and 5'9 is two inches. That's also the height difference between Datsyuk and Marchand, and Datsyuk and Bergeron. Also, Perfetti weighs less then Rossi.

@hanshin44 Using hockey IQ to try to argue against Perfetti is not a great idea. I get he might not have the two-way ability though the professionals don't agree and guys with compete issues don't go up in McKenzie's final rankings often if at all...

I won't list my opinion on his hockey IQ. Let's just say Craig Button gave Perfetti a 6 out of 5 in terms of hockey IQ. I believe the last time he was moved enough by a prospect to do that it was giving McDavid a 6 out of 5 in skating. Listen it can be discouraging that some of us think Rossi is closed to a finished product and that really is a compliment to his work ethic. I get the people that believe he will find a way to continue to build in a big way.

I don't because I don't believe in his skating and I do think it is a whole different ball-game to play his playing style with his size and athletic deficiencies at the next level. I think his character is exceptional, I would be willing to take it at some point in the teens and hope it all works out. But he doesn't have an NHL comparable and he certainly isn't Datsyuk that was a raw undersized low round pick that started contributing as a big time player in his mid-20s. He doesn't have his one on one ability, he doesn't have the additional two inches and 18 inch longer stick. He doesn't have his vision or finesse. He plays a grinding style and he plays it well. But I will say again name the average to below average skater that is sub 5'10" that is playing center in this league especially in a harder grinding way.

Marchand is a better comparison in terms of the long-term where he likely winds up out at the wing. Marchand is pretty elusive, with better skating and even then the third most important player on his line and a guy that took a while to develop into that and wasn't somebody anybody would put a top 10 pick on in his draft year. You don't draft guys like Rossi at four because it is exceedingly dangerous. You can look at the guys that hit homeruns over the last 20 years. There is a bigger list of slower undersized guys that flat out didn't become front line players in this league. Robbi Fabbri mostly injuries, Nic Petan, Sam Gagner, Rocco Girmaldi. Maybe Rossi is this unicorn, I wouldn't bet on it.

With Perfetti I see a kid who sometimes doesn't want to fight for pucks, can get lost easily in transition, and is only mediocre on D. The argument that Marchand is the third most important player on his line really undersells how key of a role he plays. He put up a hundred points last year. That's like saying "Shanahan was good but he wasn't that good because Fedorov and Yzerman are more important". So far, the entire argument I've seen is that "Perfetti is better because he's got inches on Rossi, he's less finished, has more hockey IQ and potential". A lot of the people here making that argument are only saying he has a high hockey IQ because they're told he does. They have no idea what that even means. I wouldn't put Perfetti head and shoulders above Rossi in the intelligence department, especially with the fact Rossi has consistently been ranked as one of the best two-way OHL players. He gets knocked off the puck far more then Rossi despite the size difference.

Watching some more vid on Perfetti, I noticed he skates VERY slouched over, moreso than any other player I’ve seen.

Is this just a development thing or playing style that doesnt really matter, or could it be a concern? My thing is, slouching could potentially = head down, which would not bode well in the NHL.

He has a tendency to get knocked over easily. His balance isn't there and he doesn't have the lower body strength that he should. For sure it's a red flag.

 

[Frk It]

the entire argument I've seen is that "Perfetti is better because he's got inches on Rossi, he's less finished, has more hockey IQ and potential". A lot of the people here making that argument are only saying he has a high hockey IQ because they're told he does. They have no idea what that even means. I wouldn't put Perfetti head and shoulders above Rossi in the intelligence department, especially with the fact Rossi has consistently been ranked as one of the best two-way OHL players. He gets knocked off the puck far more then Rossi despite the size difference.

One thing I am not seeing mentioned nearly enough, is I think Perfetti projects much better as a goal scorer at the NHL level. I think Cole wanted to display his playmaking this year, but let's not forget this is the kid that put up 8 goals in 5 games at the Hlinka, and that his 37 goals as a 16 year old in the OHL was I believe one of the 10 best goal totals all time for an underage season.

The kid has a phenomenal release on his shot, and has a clear edge in that department in my eyes.

 

[hanshin44]

One thing I am not seeing mentioned nearly enough, is I think Perfetti projects much better as a goal scorer at the NHL level. I think Cole wanted to display his playmaking this year, but let's not forget this is the kid that put up 8 goals in 5 games at the Hlinka, and that his 37 goals as a 16 year old in the OHL was I believe one of the 10 best goal totals all time for an underage season.

The kid has a phenomenal release on his shot, and has a clear edge in that department in my eyes.

I absolutely agree with that, that is probably the main issue with Rossi. His shot just isn't there enough. Perfetti has the ability to be a good goalscorer in the NHL.

 

[Henkka]

What the frick was wrong with Jiri Hudler? He was good player drafted in late 2nd round.

Yes he was. But would you love to draft him at #4 overall?

That's the point in this discussion.

 

[Henkka]

One thing I am not seeing mentioned nearly enough, is I think Perfetti projects much better as a goal scorer at the NHL level. I think Cole wanted to display his playmaking this year, but let's not forget this is the kid that put up 8 goals in 5 games at the Hlinka, and that his 37 goals as a 16 year old in the OHL was I believe one of the 10 best goal totals all time for an underage season.

The kid has a phenomenal release on his shot, and has a clear edge in that department in my eyes.

That Perfetti backhand is just phenomenal. Haven't seen anyone using it as effectively since Datsyuk.

He just makes a small move sideways and lifts the puck to open goal. Tenders are hopeless on those situations.

What is impressive in Perfetti, is how slow he looks like (like slowing the game, and anybody can't do anything for him), how weak he is told to be, and how effective he is being like that. Could believe that he has the biggest room to grow, and then his ceiling could be very high. Have to say it again, he reminds me of Pavel about the game-slowing thing etc.

 

[lightthelamp13]

Perfetti creates a lot of space in the offensive end without taking a stride. I think his edgework is unbelievable. So much lateral movement.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

What the frick was wrong with Jiri Hudler? He was good player drafted in late 2nd round.

Nothing for a second round pick that had a top 10 rating some places. It turns out for the right reasons. Was he a star player in the league? Would you burn a top 10 pick on him? He had a couple really big seasons but by in large was a second third line tweener winger for most of his career, especially on the better teams he played for.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Watching some more vid on Perfetti, I noticed he skates VERY slouched over, moreso than any other player I’ve seen.

Is this just a development thing or playing style that doesnt really matter, or could it be a concern? My thing is, slouching could potentially = head down, which would not bode well in the NHL.

Correct, he needs to strengthen his core and improve his lower body strength to get his chest up more. This is a common issue with a lot of underdeveloped players. If you want to be hyper, hyper critical, Rossi technically has a similar issue but it is super super slight and won't be a hindrance to him.

The challenge with Perfetti is figuring out and assessing what part of his issues are a function of a lack of strength and what (if any) are a function of limited athleticism. I honestly don't have an answer to that at this point.

 

[Henkka]

The challenge with Perfetti is figuring out and assessing what part of his issues are a function of a lack of strength and what (if any) are a function of limited athleticism. I honestly don't have an answer to that at this point.

Would they know these better thanks to Devellano/Osgood connections, and when there's no draft combine? An advantage to us?

 

[jprenkert]

I think it'd be happy with Raymon, Rossi, Drysdale, Perfetti in that order. If some some reason Stutzle drops *fingers crossed*, he be on the top of my list. Not a big fan of Byfield as i think alot of his hype is based on size. Everyone loves big guys that can play. I could see Drysdale maybe going in top 3. Lack of good D corp to draft from creates a demand for it. But who knows.

On another note, for the draft, why doesn't the NHL do the draft lottery the same time as the draft. Do it an hour before the Draft and lets see $hit hit the fan with chaos, since that is what they seem to want.