Who is the 2nd best Penguin of all time: Crosby or Jagr?

[Luigi Lemieux]

Having watched both of their careers it's pretty easily Crosby. They're fairly similar offensively, but Crosby is better at everything else. 32 out of 32 gms would draft Crosby over Jagr if given the choice.

 

[Felidae]

Obviously Crosby who has played his entire career with the pens, Jagr has played more non Pittsburgh games at this point.

Honestly the question of who is better in general would yield closer results than who is the greater player for the franchise.

 

[bobholly39]

If you're asking about whose the better player - Crosby, but it's close.

If you're asking about whose the better Penguin (ie legacy and all that) Crosby has more of a case for #1 over Mario than Jagr does for #2 over Crosby. (I still have Mario #1 of course - but Crosby isn't terribly far).

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Not really, Jagr career wise would be closer but it's still clearly Crosby.

This is why it’s two different conversations. Crosby is clearly the better Penguin. There is a reasonable argument to be made that Jagr was the overall better player.

 

[Staniowski]

Almost everybody would take Crosby as a foundational player, despite Jagr's immense talent.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Jagr was more talented but obviously Crosby has meant more to the franchise.

 

[daver]

I have spent a lot of time on the history board and still go there quite often and your list is quite problematic really given that

1) Many of these players took 1,2,3,4 or more years than crosby to reach elite status, ie they didn't hit the ground running.

2) Others lack the high end consistency that Crosby has displayed over a continuous 19 year stretch.

3) Some of them are overlapping and then the problem of did 3, 4 or 5 of the 10 best players of all time play at the same time?

4) It's almost like you are throwing mud at the wall, 11 guys listed before the secondary guys for 5 or 6 spots as we can both probably agree that McDavid is trending for top 10 already.

I think Crosby has by far the strongest argument for 5th all time right now and a couple of the guys you mentioned, like Ovechkin (who was 22nd in that top 100 poll) are obviously not in serious contention for top 10 of all time.

Also with your second paragraph I'm going to be charitable and suggest that perhaps you didn't mean to sound condescending but it sure looks that way and rephasing it might be a better look.

the comment about Crosby not doing anything to set him part form others at the time is also puzzling since most of the voting for that 12th place finish took place before the 18-19 season and all that Crosby has done since then is

-reel off another 6 consecutive PPG+ seasons from ages 31-36
-11th overall in scoring in that time frame
-2,4,9th in Hart voting a decent Selke voting record for an elite scorer, probably the best of the top 20 scorers over that time frame.
- 4 post seasons with elite possession stats, albeit with 3 of those postseasons unlucky in counting stats.

I think Crosby has by far the strongest argument for 5th all time right now and a couple of the guys you mentioned, like Ovechkin (who was 22nd in that top 100 poll) are obviously not in serious contention for top 10 of all time.

Jagr was 16th in that poll did he do more than Crosby since then?

Lidstrom 15, Shore 14 and Hasek at 13 most certainly haven't had a better 6 seasons than Crosby since then...we can agree on that right?

Same with the 7 guys above him before you get into the Big 4.

He likely finishes in the Top 5 in Hart voting last season and Top 10 in 2023 if the Pens don't miss the playoffs by one point both years. His play after the Guentzel trade this year where he was literally dragging the Pens to a playoff spot after they were left for dead unfortunately got lost in the shuffle of the other great seasons and that the Pens fell short of making the playoffs.

Even more frustrating was the 2022 playoffs. Crosby has nine points in four games as the Pens are looking really good against the Rangers until, guess what, he gets another concussion on another questionable hit. If he called it a day after that, noone would have blamed him.

The only players with better Hart showings since 18/19 are McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews and Kucherov. He has morphed into a better version of post-prime Yzerman since the last poll was done.

It really should be him with Beliveau and Hull as the clear #5 candidates. And if one thinks about it, it is about 40 or 50 games worth of stats at his peak that is keeping from being the consensus #5 as he then has at least one one signature legacy full season and two or three more Art Rosses and Hart trophies.

Fun Fact: Crosby has the most dominant Art Ross win, as measured by % over 2nd place, in comparison to both Jagr and Mario.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Crosby. 3 cups.

 

[authentic]

Mcdavid passed crosby a while back

Crosby is 6th to 10th at lowest I have him 7th or 8th but he likely wont fall outside the top 10 unless Bedard or McKenna or someone coming up greatly overachieves on their reasonable expectations

Mcdavid is what crosby was supposed to be if he lived to his potential.

In another decade Mcdavid will be 2nd most likely ahead of injury riddled career Lemieux

He is a top 5 playoff performer ever at 27 with the 2nd best playoff run ever in 2024. Its only going up from here for the Mcdavid

If McDavid retires today I don’t think that would be the consensus. Longevity and Stanley Cups count for something, especially when Crosby at his best wasn’t so far away from McDavid as some believe.

 

[wetcoast]

This is why it’s two different conversations. Crosby is clearly the better Penguin.

Yes of course.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that Jagr was the overall better player.

Other than a healthy offensive peak what's the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby?

I mean even with the injuries Crosby has 12 top 10 scoring finishes to Jagr's 11 and Crosby was much much better out of the gate, after each player's peak and also in the playoffs.

What is the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby all time?

 

[Midnight Judges]

A career versus career poll for these two might be reasonably close, but there's no way Jagr's career with the Penguins is better than Crosby's career with the Pens (which is his entire career).

A more interesting poll would be who had the better peak with Pittsburgh out of those two.

Jagr easily had the better peak.

Crosby's best season (2010) landed him 3rd in Hart voting.

 

[Midnight Judges]

While Lemieux was inarguably a better player than Crosby, I'm not sure you take Lemieux's career over Crosby's.

Lemieux was a poor leader and you could not count on him. He began his career by threatening to quit and continued those threats throughout his career, sometimes acting on it. If you compare the Penguin's record during Lemieux's career (.509 winning percentage) to the span of Crosby's career (.612), it's not close. That's not to say a team revolves around 1 player but in terms of having a player who you can count on, to build around, Lemieux has real huge weaknesses.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

While Lemieux was inarguably a better player than Crosby, I'm not sure you take Lemieux's career over Crosby's.

Lemieux was a poor leader and you could not count on him. He began his career by threatening to quit and continued those threats throughout his career, sometimes acting on it. If you compare the Penguin's record during Lemieux's career (.509 winning percentage) to the span of Crosby's career (.612), it's not close. That's not to say a team revolves around 1 player but in terms of having a player who you can count on, to build around, Lemieux has real huge weaknesses.

Lemieux was going to win a cup no matter what. The same can't be said about McDavid for example.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

Jagr had the better peak and if he doesn't bolt for Europe at one point I feel he has possibly another Art ross.

But Also I don't Consider Crosby the 5`th greatest Player ever

That spot goes to Hasek, and I'm not sure I'd rank Crosby about Beliveau my top ten players would be in this order

1 - Gretzky
2- Orr
3 - Lemieux
4 - Howe
5 - Hasek
6 - Beliveau
7 - Crosby
8 - Jagr
9 - Lindstrom
10 - Roy

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Yes of course.


Other than a healthy offensive peak what's the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby?

I mean even with the injuries Crosby has 12 top 10 scoring finishes to Jagr's 11 and Crosby was much much better out of the gate, after each player's peak and also in the playoffs.

What is the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby all time?

There were things that Jagr did that Crosby never could due to his size, strength, reach. He was a superior, more naturally gifted puck handler and offensive force, and I believe he played through a tougher DPE. As for the start out of the gate, did Crosby not get first line minutes out of the gate than Jagr?

Obviously none of this is meant to besmirch Crosby. Historically great player who has been an excellent role model. Jagr was just so talented athletically and offensively that I don’t think there is much of a gap in terms of who the better player was. It’s close enough that I can see the other side of the argument.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux was going to win a cup no matter what.

That's not accurate though.

Lemieux couldn't even get his team into the playoffs for 5 out of his first 6 seasons, and this was back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in.

Lemieux never won a cup without 6-8 other hall of famers on the team.

None of that is really a knock on Lemieux. It's more a commentary on the nature of hickey - that is to say it's a team sport and no 1 player determines the outcome.

 

[pi314]

Crosby easily.

 

[Toby91ca]

Not really, Jagr career wise would be closer but it's still clearly Crosby.

Picking Crosby for both doesn’t mean the conversation is the same though.

 

[pi314]

There were things that Jagr did that Crosby never could due to his size, strength, reach. He was a superior, more naturally gifted puck handler and offensive force, and I believe he played through a tougher DPE. As for the start out of the gate, did Crosby not get first line minutes out of the gate than Jagr?

Obviously none of this is meant to besmirch Crosby. Historically great player who has been an excellent role model. Jagr was just so talented athletically and offensively that I don’t think there is much of a gap in terms of who the better player was. It’s close enough that I can see the other side of the argument.

They are comparable offensively.

But Crosby is light years better without the puck and at all the little details.

And Crosby just wins.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

They are comparable offensively.

But Crosby is light years better without the puck and at all the little details.

And Crosby just wins.

I’m not going to sit here and argue that Jagr is better, because that’s not my view. I’m just saying there’s an argument to be made there. Sid definitely has played a more complete game.

At the same time, the defensive side of Crosby’s game has been both vastly underrated and then vastly overrated throughout his career. I used to roll my eyes when Red Wings fans tried to argue that Datsyuk was better than Crosby because his defense made up for the offensive gap. I’m not going to sit here and say Crosby has played some sort of defensive game that would overcome superior production from Jagr.

 

[pi314]

I’m not going to sit here and argue that Jagr is better, because that’s not my view. I’m just saying there’s an argument to be made there. Sid definitely has played a more complete game.

At the same time, the defensive side of Crosby’s game has been both vastly underrated and then vastly overrated throughout his career. I used to roll my eyes when Red Wings fans tried to argue that Datsyuk was better than Crosby because his defense made up for the offensive gap. I’m not going to sit here and say Crosby has played some sort of defensive game that would overcome superior production from Jagr.

I don’t say this much on the internet but…

…I respect your opinion.

 

[daver]

There were things that Jagr did that Crosby never could due to his size, strength, reach. He was a superior, more naturally gifted puck handler and offensive force, and I believe he played through a tougher DPE. As for the start out of the gate, did Crosby not get first line minutes out of the gate than Jagr?

Obviously none of this is meant to besmirch Crosby. Historically great player who has been an excellent role model. Jagr was just so talented athletically and offensively that I don’t think there is much of a gap in terms of who the better player was. It’s close enough that I can see the other side of the argument.

Meaning what exactly?

 

[banks]

I think most would take Crosby when considering their entire career. As players, they were close.

But as Penguins? Crosby, without the slightest hesitation.

 

[Video Nasty]

Jagr had the better peak and if he doesn't bolt for Europe at one point I feel he has possibly another Art ross.

Impossible. His desire to make a return and play in the NHL again was only made possible by his departure. He has stated this.

 

[eXile3]

Jagr was the more dynamic offensive player but Crosby was better all around. Jagr was never a fan of playing defense but carried worse teams. Without all the injuries Crosby matches his Art Ross count while playing good, but not elite defensive game.

Also, LOL at insecure McDavid fanboys that have to show up anytime Sid’s name is mentioned.