Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2003
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This is why it’s two different conversations. Crosby is clearly the better Penguin. There is a reasonable argument to be made that Jagr was the overall better player.Not really, Jagr career wise would be closer but it's still clearly Crosby.
I have spent a lot of time on the history board and still go there quite often and your list is quite problematic really given that
1) Many of these players took 1,2,3,4 or more years than crosby to reach elite status, ie they didn't hit the ground running.
2) Others lack the high end consistency that Crosby has displayed over a continuous 19 year stretch.
3) Some of them are overlapping and then the problem of did 3, 4 or 5 of the 10 best players of all time play at the same time?
4) It's almost like you are throwing mud at the wall, 11 guys listed before the secondary guys for 5 or 6 spots as we can both probably agree that McDavid is trending for top 10 already.
I think Crosby has by far the strongest argument for 5th all time right now and a couple of the guys you mentioned, like Ovechkin (who was 22nd in that top 100 poll) are obviously not in serious contention for top 10 of all time.
Also with your second paragraph I'm going to be charitable and suggest that perhaps you didn't mean to sound condescending but it sure looks that way and rephasing it might be a better look.
the comment about Crosby not doing anything to set him part form others at the time is also puzzling since most of the voting for that 12th place finish took place before the 18-19 season and all that Crosby has done since then is
-reel off another 6 consecutive PPG+ seasons from ages 31-36
-11th overall in scoring in that time frame
-2,4,9th in Hart voting a decent Selke voting record for an elite scorer, probably the best of the top 20 scorers over that time frame.
- 4 post seasons with elite possession stats, albeit with 3 of those postseasons unlucky in counting stats.
I think Crosby has by far the strongest argument for 5th all time right now and a couple of the guys you mentioned, like Ovechkin (who was 22nd in that top 100 poll) are obviously not in serious contention for top 10 of all time.
Jagr was 16th in that poll did he do more than Crosby since then?
Lidstrom 15, Shore 14 and Hasek at 13 most certainly haven't had a better 6 seasons than Crosby since then...we can agree on that right?
Same with the 7 guys above him before you get into the Big 4.
Mcdavid passed crosby a while back
Crosby is 6th to 10th at lowest I have him 7th or 8th but he likely wont fall outside the top 10 unless Bedard or McKenna or someone coming up greatly overachieves on their reasonable expectations
Mcdavid is what crosby was supposed to be if he lived to his potential.
In another decade Mcdavid will be 2nd most likely ahead of injury riddled career Lemieux
He is a top 5 playoff performer ever at 27 with the 2nd best playoff run ever in 2024. Its only going up from here for the Mcdavid
Yes of course.This is why it’s two different conversations. Crosby is clearly the better Penguin.
Other than a healthy offensive peak what's the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby?There is a reasonable argument to be made that Jagr was the overall better player.
A career versus career poll for these two might be reasonably close, but there's no way Jagr's career with the Penguins is better than Crosby's career with the Pens (which is his entire career).
A more interesting poll would be who had the better peak with Pittsburgh out of those two.
Lemieux was going to win a cup no matter what. The same can't be said about McDavid for example.While Lemieux was inarguably a better player than Crosby, I'm not sure you take Lemieux's career over Crosby's.
Lemieux was a poor leader and you could not count on him. He began his career by threatening to quit and continued those threats throughout his career, sometimes acting on it. If you compare the Penguin's record during Lemieux's career (.509 winning percentage) to the span of Crosby's career (.612), it's not close. That's not to say a team revolves around 1 player but in terms of having a player who you can count on, to build around, Lemieux has real huge weaknesses.
There were things that Jagr did that Crosby never could due to his size, strength, reach. He was a superior, more naturally gifted puck handler and offensive force, and I believe he played through a tougher DPE. As for the start out of the gate, did Crosby not get first line minutes out of the gate than Jagr?Yes of course.
Other than a healthy offensive peak what's the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby?
I mean even with the injuries Crosby has 12 top 10 scoring finishes to Jagr's 11 and Crosby was much much better out of the gate, after each player's peak and also in the playoffs.
What is the actual argument for Jagr over Crosby all time?
Lemieux was going to win a cup no matter what.
Picking Crosby for both doesn’t mean the conversation is the same though.Not really, Jagr career wise would be closer but it's still clearly Crosby.
There were things that Jagr did that Crosby never could due to his size, strength, reach. He was a superior, more naturally gifted puck handler and offensive force, and I believe he played through a tougher DPE. As for the start out of the gate, did Crosby not get first line minutes out of the gate than Jagr?
Obviously none of this is meant to besmirch Crosby. Historically great player who has been an excellent role model. Jagr was just so talented athletically and offensively that I don’t think there is much of a gap in terms of who the better player was. It’s close enough that I can see the other side of the argument.
I’m not going to sit here and argue that Jagr is better, because that’s not my view. I’m just saying there’s an argument to be made there. Sid definitely has played a more complete game.They are comparable offensively.
But Crosby is light years better without the puck and at all the little details.
And Crosby just wins.
I’m not going to sit here and argue that Jagr is better, because that’s not my view. I’m just saying there’s an argument to be made there. Sid definitely has played a more complete game.
At the same time, the defensive side of Crosby’s game has been both vastly underrated and then vastly overrated throughout his career. I used to roll my eyes when Red Wings fans tried to argue that Datsyuk was better than Crosby because his defense made up for the offensive gap. I’m not going to sit here and say Crosby has played some sort of defensive game that would overcome superior production from Jagr.
There were things that Jagr did that Crosby never could due to his size, strength, reach. He was a superior, more naturally gifted puck handler and offensive force, and I believe he played through a tougher DPE. As for the start out of the gate, did Crosby not get first line minutes out of the gate than Jagr?
Obviously none of this is meant to besmirch Crosby. Historically great player who has been an excellent role model. Jagr was just so talented athletically and offensively that I don’t think there is much of a gap in terms of who the better player was. It’s close enough that I can see the other side of the argument.
Jagr had the better peak and if he doesn't bolt for Europe at one point I feel he has possibly another Art ross.