If you want to start comparing their best seasons, Jagr clearly gets the nod for best individual season. He was fortunate to have at least one season, with no Mario, at his peak.
Peak level of play is another story.
Who is the 2nd best Penguin of all time: Crosby or Jagr?
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If you want to start comparing their best seasons, Jagr clearly gets the nod for best individual season. He was fortunate to have at least one season, with no Mario, at his peak.
Peak level of play is another story.
I don’t know how you can argue that peak level of play is different than bests single season. Like, 1 month of great play isn’t a peak. That’s just variance.
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Crosby for sure. Not that Jagr wasn't amazing, but what Crosby has accomplished as a Captain of the Penguins, his work in the Pittsburgh community and his community back home, for the sport, his trophy case etc...He's firmly planter himself as 2nd behind the obvious #1 for the Pens.
For me personally and I repeat FOR ME...
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Malkin
4. Jagr
For me personally and I repeat FOR ME...
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Malkin
4. Jagr
Thoughts on Crosby's completely cherry-picked best stretch of hockey
Inspired by the Best 82 game stretch thread, this is Crosby's best stretch of hockey which took place between Nov. 28, 2009 (after shaking off his Cup hangover) to Nov. 8, 2014 (before a viral illness kicked in). NHL Stats Despite playing 42% less games than the scoring leader during this...
Take this with as much of a grain of a salt as you want but remember that Jagr gets full credit for a 48 game season and also for his 99/00 season despite missing 19 games.
While Crosby didn't get to complete one full season, even a 48 game season, while playing at a level that was clearly above anything he had reached prior to 2010/11, one can reasonably place a value on his per game production over a pretty large sample of games.
Even if Sid did finish that season, it would give him 1 season in the top 50 all time for era adjusted points. Jagr had 3.Thoughts on Crosby's completely cherry-picked best stretch of hockey
Inspired by the Best 82 game stretch thread, this is Crosby's best stretch of hockey which took place between Nov. 28, 2009 (after shaking off his Cup hangover) to Nov. 8, 2014 (before a viral illness kicked in). NHL Stats Despite playing 42% less games than the scoring leader during this...forums.hfboards.com
Take this with as much of a grain of a salt as you want but remember that Jagr gets full credit for a 48 game season and also for his 99/00 season despite missing 19 games.
While Crosby didn't get to complete one full season, even a 48 game season, while playing at a level that was clearly above anything he had reached prior to 2010/11, one can reasonably place a value on his per game production over a pretty large sample of games.
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Crosby is going to pass Lemieux when it’s all said and done, even if the old heads don’t want to believe so. Longevity and intangibles are important.
Beau Knows
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frisco
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
If it is as a Penguin, it is Crosby, of course. All-time as players, I have Jagr #5 all-time and Crosby #6.
My Best-Carey
My Best-Carey
No he will not. There’s literally nothing that anyone could do to make them a more important person and player to this franchise than Lemieux. Also, Lemieux was unquestionably a far superior player. From a talent perspective, Crosby doesn’t even touch him.
TheGuiminator
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Both had a similar offensive ceiling, although Jagr peaked higher.
However, Crosby has brought greater plus-value as a player and for the Penguins than Jagr did.
Crosby is the easy choice.
One could even argue that he might be the best Penguin of all time when it's all said and done.
However, Crosby has brought greater plus-value as a player and for the Penguins than Jagr did.
Crosby is the easy choice.
One could even argue that he might be the best Penguin of all time when it's all said and done.
You can’t argue the last point. Mario was a far superior player and athlete, then became the reason the Penguins stayed in Pittsburgh as the owner of the team. On top of that, he’s contributed so much back to the local community.
Sid is phenomenal. He’s an all time great, both on and off the ice. He’s done a lot of the things Mario has, but on a less grand scale, and anything further that he does will simply be following the footsteps of a greater giant that already forged the path in Pittsburgh for him.
TheGuiminator
I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
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I agree with your point, I also would never rank Crosby ahead of Lemieux.
However, I’d be open to listen to someone arguing that Crosby will end up greater than Lemieux without laughing at them.
I wouldn’t laugh at them, but I’d tell them they’re wrong. The book has been closed on this since Sid peaked.
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Crosby has 19 years of elite play as a Penguin, Jagr as a Penguin just isn't close when you look at it overall.
A lot of this comes down to what specific questions we're talking about.
Who are the better overall hockey players?
1. Lemieux
2/3 Crosby/Jagr (I have Crosby ahead, but it's somewhat close)
Who has the bigger legacy in Pittsburgh (taking everything into account, career, reputation, intangibles, community, fan support, etc)
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Jagr
Who are the better hockey players for their time in Pittsburgh only?
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Jagr (Crosby has his full career here, Jagr only partial)
Lemieux is defintiely the better player overall by a longshot. But being the best player doesn't always translate to being a greater Penguin/legacy. I still have him #1 (him being an owner, saving franchise etc is huge) - but making an argument for Crosby is probably plausible.
I agree with your rankings. I don’t agree that there’s any plausibility to the argument that Crosby is a better/more impactful/important player or person for the Penguins than Mario. But it is a more interesting conversation than the Jagr vs Crosby debate in that regard.
Nadal On Clay
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Lemieux will remain as the better player, but Crosby will ultimately end up with the better career when it’s all said and done.
As great a career as Crosby has had, I disagree, because Lemieux accomplished enough in as few games as he played to show that on top of being a great player, he was able to translate that into elite success in spite of facing cancer and chronic back issues. But I think you can make a valid argument in terms of who had the better playing career, because Crosby will out-quantify Lemieux in terms of individual stats, and already has in terms of Cups.
But the question I’m referring to is who was/is the better Penguin. And that’s not really up for debate between Lemieux and literally anyone else, ever.
I think that one is still pretty easily Malkin, just because of Malkin’s time with the team and obvious importance to Cup wins while having a hall of fame career as one of the top Russian hockey players of all time.
Jagr vs Letang might be the most interesting and polarizing. Because there is a very sizable gap in terms of talent, but Letang has been around a lot longer, won 3 Cups as the Penguins’ premier defenseman, and is really the only elite defenseman to play his whole career with the team.
Le Magnifique 66
Let's Go Pens
Era adjusted is meaningless. Not sure how many times that has to be said before people stop bringing it up.
Incognito
Registered User
No, it's meaningless and misleading.
Crosby's 13/14 season "adjusts" to 116 points, Paul Kariya's 101 point 98/99 season, 26 points behind Jagr, "adjusts" to 115 points. So put Crosby in 98/99 and he gets 102 points.
Sound reasonable??
Based on the % each player was ahead of the #10/25/50 scorer, Crosby's 13/14 season was about 8% behind Jagr's 98/99 season. This puts him around 117 points.
That is reasonable.
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