Who is the 2nd best Penguin of all time: Crosby or Jagr?

[vancityluongo]

career penguin malkin vs just as a penguin jagr is a much more interesting question

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Meaning what exactly?

Dead puck era

career penguin malkin vs just as a penguin jagr is a much more interesting question

I think you still have to go with Malkin as a Penguin, just given what he’s meant to this team and its success. He’s had more success with the Pens and has been every bit as important as Sid in that regard.

 

[Machinehead]

As a Penguin, this isn't close at all.

Sidney Crosby is the PIttsburgh Penguins to an entire generation of people.

Jagr played for like 92 teams including *checks notes* every rival the Penguins have.

 

[authentic]

I’d agree with Kelly but arguments have been made especially considering Kelly was arguably elite as 2 positions (defense and center) throughout his career. Larionov I don’t both trying to touch because Soviets are hard to judge and historically don’t age well, which is also true of many NHL players at that time also. Different eras and training players didn’t seem to be elite into their 30s like they are today.

Lidstrom and Bourque as examples about Crosby aging well are bad choices. Both those players were arguably the best player at their position right up until they retired and neither really had much of a drop off whatsoever in play and game impact into their final season. Lidstrom and Bourque probably could have played several more seasons as a top4 level at worst, and probably still as top pairing guys. Lidstrom won his final Norris at 40 years old and retired a year later. Bourque was the #1 on the Avs first Cup team as a 40yr old and retired after that season.

A huge difference between being the best defenseman in your late 30s and the best forward

 

[Regal]

I’d agree with Kelly but arguments have been made especially considering Kelly was arguably elite as 2 positions (defense and center) throughout his career. Larionov I don’t both trying to touch because Soviets are hard to judge and historically don’t age well, which is also true of many NHL players at that time also. Different eras and training players didn’t seem to be elite into their 30s like they are today.

Lidstrom and Bourque as examples about Crosby aging well are bad choices. Both those players were arguably the best player at their position right up until they retired and neither really had much of a drop off whatsoever in play and game impact into their final season. Lidstrom and Bourque probably could have played several more seasons as a top4 level at worst, and probably still as top pairing guys. Lidstrom won his final Norris at 40 years old and retired a year later. Bourque was the #1 on the Avs first Cup team as a 40yr old and retired after that season.

I think just because arguments have been made doesn’t mean there should be much legitimacy to them tbh. I don’t see any reason to give a player extra credit for playing two positions well. Impressive, sure but not better. Larionov came to the NHL at 29 and was never close to the player Crosby still is at 36. I can’t imagine how good he’d have to be in the Soviet league to justify him being ahead.

The Lidstrom and Bourque examples aren’t to suggest Crosby has aged better, but that he was a much better player in his teens and 20s and at this point is making the advantage the defensemen have in their 30s smaller and smaller. Bourque was 2nd in Norris voting at 40 but it was also an extremely weak period for defensemen and in general his 36-40 ages are good but he wasn’t any better as a player than Crosby was last year. Lidstrom was elite up to 38 (his last Norris at 40 was weak), but he also didn’t start until he was 21. Crosby at this point has nearly as many seasons as both of them and he’s been a top 10 center the entire time, and top 5 for the majority of it. Not that there’s zero argument for them but it’s becoming pretty weak at this point.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Jags for peak and skill, but Sid is the better overall player.

 

[vancityluongo]

I think you still have to go with Malkin as a Penguin, just given what he’s meant to this team and its success. He’s had more success with the Pens and has been every bit as important as Sid in that regard.

agreed generally, but it is closer. jagr is the better all-time player, but given that he's restricted to only his pittsburgh years, and malkin gets less "legacy" points by being the #2 guy for his whole career, there's at least some discussion to be had.

crosby is the better all-time player than jagr and he's done it all while on the same team, as the face of the franchise, and arguably the league. there are maybe 5 players in history more associated with their franchise than crosby with pittsburgh, and imo he'd arguably be top-3 (supplanting one of howe or richard, alongside beliveau) if not for lemieux, who to me is #1 in hockey.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Who is the better player and who is the better Pittsburgh Penguin are two very different conversations.

I don't think so actually. All of Jagr's hall of fame credentials came as a penguin. Better player and better penguin are the same question. And the answer to both is Crosby. It's close, but it's clear.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't think so actually. All of Jagr's hall of fame credentials came as a penguin.

Nah. His '05-06 season definitely moves the needle, as does his longevity (at least for some of us).

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Nah. His '05-06 season definitely moves the needle, as does his longevity (at least for some of us).

If you look at only his penguin career, is he a hall of famer? Yes. If only looking at his non penguin career, is he a hall of famer? No.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Looking at era adjusted points, Jagr has 3 seasons in the top 50 all time. Crosby’s best three seasons are 59th, 85th, and 95th. I think a lot of people are underrating how much better Jagr was offensively than Crosby.

 

[WalterLundy]

Looking at era adjusted points, Jagr has 3 seasons in the top 50 all time. Crosby’s best three seasons are 59th, 85th, and 95th. I think a lot of people are underrating how much better Jagr was offensively than Crosby.

Agreed. Jagr is clearly better offensively than Crosby and he’s the better player in general. Crosby is everything you want in a franchise center and has the better career (and as a penguin). His 1999 season is essentially slightly better than full health Crosby could have been. That says it all.

Nah. His '05-06 season definitely moves the needle, as does his longevity (at least for some of us).

His 2006 was as good as any Crosby full season and it is the NYR single season record. He did that while past his prime.

 

[Gurglesons]

Looking at era adjusted points, Jagr has 3 seasons in the top 50 all time. Crosby’s best three seasons are 59th, 85th, and 95th. I think a lot of people are underrating how much better Jagr was offensively than Crosby.

Easy to better offensively when the entire team is set up so that you score.

How many years did Jagr have the title of best player in the NHL? 3?

Sid was in that conversation for 8-9.

 

[wetcoast]

Picking Crosby for both doesn’t mean the conversation is the same though.

Sure and I would say they are 2 different conversations.

 

[wetcoast]

Jagr had the better peak and if he doesn't bolt for Europe at one point I feel he has possibly another Art ross.

How so he had 2 full seasons after getting 123 points in 05-06 of 96 and 71 points.

He wasn't getting another Atr Ross in the NHL, maybe another top 10 finish but even then.....that's extremely unlikely.

But Also I don't Consider Crosby the 5`th greatest Player ever

That spot goes to Hasek, and I'm not sure I'd rank Crosby about Beliveau my top ten players would be in this order

1 - Gretzky
2- Orr
3 - Lemieux
4 - Howe
5 - Hasek
6 - Beliveau
7 - Crosby
8 - Jagr
9 - Lindstrom
10 - Roy

I see other people putting Jean over Crosby and it just doesn't make any sense and I'm a huge Beliveau guy.

They both have 12 seasons in top 10 scoring but one guy was in the 06 era for starters.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

There’s a lot more here than who’s better. I chose Jagr. He dominated the nhl players more than Crosby did.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

Sid AINEC

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

Sid AINEC

That you put AINEC undermines whatever argument you have. You put no thought into it or have no observational opinion. This isn’t asking whether Cleghorn was better than Clancy. People here have actually watched them and have an opinion. AINIC WONT WORK HERE.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

That you put AINEC undermines whatever argument you have. You put no thought into it or have no observational opinion. This isn’t asking whether Cleghorn was better than Clancy. People here have actually watched them and have an opinion. AINIC WONT WORK HERE.

Ok sorry

 

[wetcoast]

That you put AINEC undermines whatever argument you have. You put no thought into it or have no observational opinion. This isn’t asking whether Cleghorn was better than Clancy. People here have actually watched them and have an opinion. AINIC WONT WORK HERE.

Actually for time as a Pens player it really isn't close.

 

[Laveuglette]

I'm among those who would rank Jagr's career above Crosby's, but if you ask who was the best Penguin that has to be Crosby lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

That you put AINEC undermines whatever argument you have. You put no thought into it or have no observational opinion. This isn’t asking whether Cleghorn was better than Clancy. People here have actually watched them and have an opinion. AINIC WONT WORK HERE.

It will though.

As someone who grew up mainly in the post Mario / Jagr era Penguins, that time will always be viewed as a failure.

Crosby's time as a Penguin will be likely viewed as the best in franchise history.

It's not a question who is the "2nd best Penguin of all time". It's been Crosby without a doubt since 2017.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

Actually for time as a Pens player it really isn't close.

There seems to be differing opinions. So maybe it’s no AINEC.

 

[Regal]

There seems to be differing opinions. So maybe it’s no AINEC.

I mean lots of people have bad opinions it doesn’t mean they need to be considered. Crosby has 8 more seasons, nearly 500 more games played and over 500 more points for the team, and had more individual awards and more team success, all while being captain. In terms of best player or best peak it’s close. In terms of “best Penguin” it’s not.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

There seems to be differing opinions. So maybe it’s no AINEC.

I don’t think there’s an argument over who the best Penguin was. That’s not really up for debate, because you have to consider what both players meant to the franchise. The fact that Jagr asked for a trade out of here and Crosby’s entrance to the franchise helped keep the team in Pittsburgh while garnering 3 Cups ends THAT debate.

I mean lots of people have bad opinions it doesn’t mean they need to be considered. Crosby has 8 more seasons, nearly 500 more games played and over 500 more points for the team, and had more individual awards and more team success, all while being captain. In terms of best player or best peak it’s close. In terms of “best Penguin” it’s not.

Yes. And us saying who had the best peak is close. . . might be underselling Jagr a bit. He was so talented, and had every bit of work ethic that Crosby has.