Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[Dfence033]

First point kind of defeats your whole argument here. Goff? He’s second and only by 9%. Domination I guess? Over a mediocre QB, maybe slightly above average?

Yes, Goff. And a “mediocre QB” as you call him is 2nd in the NFL in passing yards during that time frame, but 8th in YPG, which is why I included the entire list. No other QB is in 1st or 2nd in 3 or more categories. Mahomes is 1st in 5 of the 6.

Who is a less “mediocre” QB to you? Perhaps Jared Allen, whom another poster mentioned (not as a comparison)? He has played 1 fewer game than Mahomes over this time frame, and would only need 5,438 yards in that game to pass Mahomes. I guess he “only” beats Allen by 19%. What a hack.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, Goff. And a “mediocre QB” as you call him is 2nd in the NFL in passing yards during that time frame, but 8th in YPG, which is why I included the entire list. No other QB is in 1st or 2nd in 3 or more categories. Mahomes is 1st in 5 of the 6.

Who is a less “mediocre” QB to you? Perhaps Jared Allen, whom another poster mentioned (not as a comparison)? He has played 1 fewer game than Mahomes over this time frame, and would only need 5,438 yards in that game to pass Mahomes. I guess he “only” beats Allen by 19%. What a hack.

To defend Allen a bit, there stats are fairly close since 2020. Allen was a developing QB on a poor team in 2018 and 2019, so lumping those years in aren’t going to be representative of the comparison of these players the last four years and now. Allen is also a dual threat QB, so factoring in his rushing yards and TDs shows they are absolutely in the same tier statistically. But Allen is also going to go down as a hall of fame generational player, so he’s going to be impressive in his own right statistically

 

[Dfence033]

To defend Allen a bit, there stats are fairly close since 2020. Allen was a developing QB on a poor team in 2018 and 2019, so lumping those years in aren’t going to be representative of the comparison of these players the last four years and now. Allen is also a dual threat QB, so factoring in his rushing yards and TDs shows they are absolutely in the same tier statistically. But Allen is also going to go down as a hall of fame generational player, so he’s going to be impressive in his own right statistically

Certainly didn’t use the comparison to denigrate Allen, who as you said is a great player on his own. More to show that Mahomes has actually been dominant in a way much closer to McDavid than Ohtani.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Certainly didn’t use the comparison to denigrate Allen, who as you said is a great player on his own. More to show that Mahomes has actually been dominant in a way much closer to McDavid than Ohtani.

I’m an Allen fanboy so I had to say it. I’m not disagreeing with your point at all

 

[BlueSeal]

If your supporting cast isn't up to par, it doesn't matter how great you are, you're not going anywhere. McD has trash for netminding and a blueline that is ignored by ownership.

AI damn near single-handedly carried a team and took a game from the Lakers, but because he didn't win it all he's not as good as some others?

See my point?

As for Ohtani, not going to lie he's legit, but if we're sticking to MLB/NHL stats and hardware, McD has done more and is younger.

 

[Crow]

Yes, Goff. And a “mediocre QB” as you call him is 2nd in the NFL in passing yards during that time frame, but 8th in YPG, which is why I included the entire list. No other QB is in 1st or 2nd in 3 or more categories. Mahomes is 1st in 5 of the 6.

Who is a less “mediocre” QB to you? Perhaps Jared Allen, whom another poster mentioned (not as a comparison)? He has played 1 fewer game than Mahomes over this time frame, and would only need 5,438 yards in that game to pass Mahomes. I guess he “only” beats Allen by 19%. What a hack.

Never called anyone a hack.

Yes, Goff. And a “mediocre QB” as you call him is 2nd in the NFL in passing yards during that time frame, but 8th in YPG, which is why I included the entire list. No other QB is in 1st or 2nd in 3 or more categories. Mahomes is 1st in 5 of the 6.

Who is a less “mediocre” QB to you? Perhaps Jared Allen, whom another poster mentioned (not as a comparison)? He has played 1 fewer game than Mahomes over this time frame, and would only need 5,438 yards in that game to pass Mahomes. I guess he “only” beats Allen by 19%. What a hack.

Im really not into calling people hacks or plugs or bums or anything like that. Not even minor leaguers. Goff to me is a middle to slightly above average starting QB in the NFL to me. Like 12th best or something. That’s an amazing accomplishment and I wouldn’t take anything away from him. But to be 9% better than that seems not quite like domination to me.

 

[Albatros]

If your supporting cast isn't up to par, it doesn't matter how great you are, you're not going anywhere. McD has trash for netminding and a blueline that is ignored by ownership.

The Oilers have had league average or above save percentage for five straight years now. Only one other team had more points by defensemen than the Oilers last season, their top blueliner finished fourth in scoring. Pretending like these are particular weaknesses is tiresome.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Awfully simplistic to just point out WAR and say conversation over.

I'm glad it wasn't just me. That's insultingly reductive, especially as it's confining the narrative to this season to conveniently remove his dominance at another huge part of the game and ignoring what he was doing just last year before having to stop pitching for a time. And then acting like an extra 25% home runs is negligible...

 

[Dfence033]

Never called anyone a hack.

Im really not into calling people hacks or plugs or bums or anything like that. Not even minor leaguers. Goff to me is a middle to slightly above average starting QB in the NFL to me. Like 12th best or something. That’s an amazing accomplishment and I wouldn’t take anything away from him. But to be 9% better than that seems not quite like domination to me.

You are correct, you did not even suggest the word “hack,” that was entirely my sarcasm interjecting- sorry for not wording my statement clearly.

9% over a single “12th best” certainly wouldn’t be dominant. However, the statistics show Mahomes is 9% higher than 2nd place in the league during the time he’s been in the NFL. It just happens that a player whom most wouldn’t say is in the running for best in the NFL is in 2nd, which is why I including the rest. Again, no other QB is in 1st or 2nd place in 3 or more of the 6 categories that QBs are generally judged against. Mahomes is 1st in 5 of them, and 3rd in the 6th. That’s what’s dominant, not him being 9% better than Goff. If you picked any other QB, the percentage is larger, no matter what perception of how great the other QB has been.

 

[Dfence033]

I'm glad it wasn't just me. That's insultingly reductive, especially as it's confining the narrative to this season to conveniently remove his dominance at another huge part of the game and ignoring what he was doing just last year before having to stop pitching for a time. And then acting like an extra 25% home runs is negligible...

The narrative around Ohtani’s season that gives him the assumption of “dominance” is uniqueness. Many people have stated that the 50/50 is what tilted them to Ohtani, as it’s “ ever been done before.” I continue to contest that idea. Never been done before does not equate dominance. It’s unique, it’s rare, but it doesn’t necessitate dominant. As I’ve said: Acuna became the first player in MLB history to have a 40/60 and 40/70 season just last year. How come no one considers him dominant the way they do Ohtani?

It’s not convenient to remove his pitching from his only “dominant” batting season - he hasn’t thrown a single pitch in over 13 months. It’s convenient to assume he is a top 5 pitcher AND top 5 hitter at the same time - he has never done both together. It’s not coincidence that when he is batting only (he doesn’t even play the field this season), his batting goes from good to great. However, despite being only a DH, he isn’t even the top hitting player in baseball this year (and the guy who is, has been a top-3 hitter since he came into the league). Unlike many here apparently, I am not willing to assume what can be until it has been. Babe Ruth, the greatest “two-way” player ever, gave up pitching and became the “greatest hitter ever.” It’s not coincidence that it happened to boost Ohtani as well. But even in that context, Ohtani was never a dominant pitcher. A single 4th place finish in Cy Young confirms this.

What Ohtani is is unique, and uniquely great at hitting and pitching. But he isn’t the best, or even close to “dominant” when compared to his peers in either (when he was doing both), nor individually (when he is only a DH, as shown this year). Dominant is beating the entire field by 10%+ like Mahomes and McDavid do in nearly every statistical category.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The narrative around Ohtani’s season that gives him the assumption of “dominance” is uniqueness. Many people have stated that the 50/50 is what tilted them to Ohtani, as it’s “ ever been done before.” I continue to contest that idea. Never been done before does not equate dominance. It’s unique, it’s rare, but it doesn’t necessitate dominant. As I’ve said: Acuna became the first player in MLB history to have a 40/60 and 40/70 season just last year. How come no one considers him dominant the way they do Ohtani?

It’s not convenient to remove his pitching from his only “dominant” batting season - he hasn’t thrown a single pitch in over 13 months. It’s convenient to assume he is a top 5 pitcher AND top 5 hitter at the same time - he has never done both together. It’s not coincidence that when he is batting only (he doesn’t even play the field this season), his batting goes from good to great. However, despite being only a DH, he isn’t even the top hitting player in baseball this year (and the guy who is, has been a top-3 hitter since he came into the league). Unlike many here apparently, I am not willing to assume what can be until it has been. Babe Ruth, the greatest “two-way” player ever, gave up pitching and became the “greatest hitter ever.” It’s not coincidence that it happened to boost Ohtani as well. But even in that context, Ohtani was never a dominant pitcher. A single 4th place finish in Cy Young confirms this.

What Ohtani is is unique, and uniquely great at hitting and pitching. But he isn’t the best, or even close to “dominant” when compared to his peers in either (when he was doing both), nor individually (when he is only a DH, as shown this year). Dominant is beating the entire field by 10%+ like Mahomes and McDavid do in nearly every statistical category.

So you wouldn't consider Mahomes dominant if he was a top 5 QB AND a tpo 5 safety? McDavid if here was atop 5 Skater and top 5 goalie? Calling it "only" a 4th place Cy young is like being unimpressed if McDavid was a Vezina finalist.

Ther'es a reason your'e focusing this analysis solely on this season and its to discount what he does by reducing his greatness to DH. Let me know when Acuna throws some serious pitches. Otherwise, again, ignoring 10 home runs is also omission.

Calling it just 'unique' rather than top tier at two completely separate parts of the game is completely reductive.

I DO Think it's important and useful that you've provided stats on the other players' single-way dominance and the whole exercise is comparing apples to oranges anyway but you insist we can ONLY compare apples to apples and nothing else matters.

 

[Dfence033]

So you wouldn't consider Mahomes dominant if he was a top 5 QB AND a tpo 5 safety? McDavid if here was atop 5 Skater and top 5 goalie? Calling it "only" a 4th place Cy young is like being unimpressed if McDavid was a Vezina finalist.

Ther'es a reason your'e focusing this analysis solely on this season and its to discount what he does by reducing his greatness to DH. Let me know when Acuna throws some serious pitches. Otherwise, again, ignoring 10 home runs is also omission.

Calling it just 'unique' rather than top tier at two completely separate parts of the game is completely reductive.

I DO Think it's important and useful that you've provided stats on the other players' single-way dominance and the whole exercise is comparing apples to oranges anyway but you insist we can ONLY compare apples to apples and nothing else matters.

I wouldn’t consider McDavid or Mahomes dominant if the entire crux of the argument was that they were also great at another related skill. Otherwise, McDavid would be getting a lot more credit for being able to lead the league in goals after dominating in assists and total points. If Ohtani was unquestionably the best at one of the two positions, I’d argue he was dominant. He is not, and never was. He was a great pitcher. He is a great hitter. He was never simultaneously a great pitcher AND a great hitter, nor was he ever individually the dominant best of either position.

Dominant looks like Mahomes and McDavid beating the field of their peers by double-digit percentages in nearly every statistical category that has mattered for their positions. Ohtani can be simultaneously great, unique, and rare, without being dominant.

As for “ignoring 10 home runs,” couldn’t the same be said for Acuna’s season last year? After all, people discounting that argument to boost Ohtani are “ignoring” Acuna had 20 more stolen bases. And yet, I still see no one suggesting Acuna is dominant, or even the best offensive player in baseball.

 

[Voight]

The ironic thing is while all three are amazing, none will likely be the GOAT of their sports.

All will rank among the best ever, but I dont see any being the GOAT (tho Ohtani would have a really good chance had he crossed the pond earlier)

 

[Dfence033]

The ironic thing is while all three are amazing, none will likely be the GOAT of their sports.

All will rank among the best ever, but I dont see any being the GOAT (tho Ohtani would have a really good chance had he crossed the pond earlier)

Agreed. With the exception of football, where the GOAT is still reasonably contested, MLB and NHL have pretty clear pantheons at the top. And the NHL has perhaps the clearest “GOAT” of any team-based sport. That’s not a knock on any of these three players, but there is a reason the same names come up over decades and decades of sport.

 

[Albatros]

I don't think Ohtani would have got to play so diverse roles in the MLB if he hadn't already proven himself as a legit star doing so in Japan.

 

[Voight]

Agreed. With the exception of football, where the GOAT is still reasonably contested, MLB and NHL have pretty clear pantheons at the top. And the NHL has perhaps the clearest “GOAT” of any team-based sport. That’s not a knock on any of these three players, but there is a reason the same names come up over decades and decades of sport.

Eh it's not that contested. By now most agree Brady is the GOAT, of course you have some who say it's Jerry Rice or Jim Brown but for the most part even his biggest haters have come around.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Anybody not voting Ohtani are simply wrong on this one.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I wouldn’t consider McDavid or Mahomes dominant if the entire crux of the argument was that they were also great at another related skill. Otherwise, McDavid would be getting a lot more credit for being able to lead the league in goals after dominating in assists and total points. If Ohtani was unquestionably the best at one of the two positions, I’d argue he was dominant. He is not, and never was. He was a great pitcher. He is a great hitter. He was never simultaneously a great pitcher AND a great hitter, nor was he ever individually the dominant best of either position.

Dominant looks like Mahomes and McDavid beating the field of their peers by double-digit percentages in nearly every statistical category that has mattered for their positions. Ohtani can be simultaneously great, unique, and rare, without being dominant.

As for “ignoring 10 home runs,” couldn’t the same be said for Acuna’s season last year? After all, people discounting that argument to boost Ohtani are “ignoring” Acuna had 20 more stolen bases. And yet, I still see no one suggesting Acuna is dominant, or even the best offensive player in baseball.

Again, reductive. We're not talking about simply great. We're talking about top tier, literally top 5 at both. I find it hard to ignore a guy's dominance when he's playing two sides of the game at MVP levels when literally no other players play more than one. And Ohtani literally has 2 MVPs in 3 years so I don't understand how you can just shrug that off.

Yes, I validated how important it was that you provided those stats for Mahomes and McDavid in their spheres. But again, we're talking about if Mahomes was the QB he is now and also a pro-bowl safety. You're conveniently just leaving that part off and suggesting it's a novelty. That's kind of bullshit and I think you know that since you keep downplaying it as if it's just cute because it's unique rather than impressive because he's mauling people on both sides of the field.

And I don't know what you want to recognize Acuna's greatness, he got his MVP as well? He's not in this thread because he doesn't pitch.

 

[Dfence033]

Again, reductive. We're not talking about simply great. We're talking about top tier, literally top 5 at both. I find it hard to ignore a guy's dominance when he's playing two sides of the game at MVP levels when literally no other players play more than one. And Ohtani literally has 2 MVPs in 3 years so I don't understand how you can just shrug that off.

Yes, I validated how important it was that you provided those stats for Mahomes and McDavid in their spheres. But again, we're talking about if Mahomes was the QB he is now and also a pro-bowl safety. You're conveniently just leaving that part off and suggesting it's a novelty. That's kind of bullshit and I think you know that since you keep downplaying it as if it's just cute because it's unique rather than impressive because he's mauling people on both sides of the field.

And I don't know what you want to recognize Acuna's greatness, he got his MVP as well? He's not in this thread because he doesn't pitch.

Except he wasn’t top 5 in both at the same time, which is my issue with this. He was “top-5” (4th) as a pitcher exactly once - and saying “top-5” in generous because voting for Cy Young and other awards are only for half the league against itself. He has been a “top-5” hitter exactly once (this season), and it coincides with him not playing in the field at all, not just not pitching.

If you asked who the best 3 pitchers in baseball are, how often do you think Ohtani is listed? I’d argue pretty infrequently. If you ask who the best 3 hitters in baseball are, especially before this season, how many do you think would have said Ohtani? Not many.

If you asked who the best player in the NHL is, I’d happily wager at least 50% would say McDavid. If you asked who the best Center in the NHL is, I’d wager more than 90% would say McDavid.

If you asked who the best player in the NFL was, I’d wager that the most common name would be Mahomes. If you asked who the best QB in the NFL was, I’d wager more than half would say Mahomes.

There is a reason for this. I’m not saying Ohtani isn’t great. But he isn’t “dominant” in the sense of being considered the best, nor statistically when compared to his peers. It’s a “jack-of-all-trades scenario that is unique and rare.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Except he wasn’t top 5 in both at the same time, which is my issue with this. He was “top-5” (4th) as a pitcher exactly once - and saying “top-5” in generous because voting for Cy Young and other awards are only for half the league against itself. He has been a “top-5” hitter exactly once (this season), and it coincides with him not playing in the field at all, not just not pitching.

If you asked who the best 3 pitchers in baseball are, how often do you think Ohtani is listed? I’d argue pretty infrequently. If you ask who the best 3 hitters in baseball are, especially before this season, how many do you think would have said Ohtani? Not many.

If you asked who the best player in the NHL is, I’d happily wager at least 50% would say McDavid. If you asked who the best Center in the NHL is, I’d wager more than 90% would say McDavid.

If you asked who the best player in the NFL was, I’d wager that the most common name would be Mahomes. If you asked who the best QB in the NFL was, I’d wager more than half would say Mahomes.

There is a reason for this. I’m not saying Ohtani isn’t great. But he isn’t “dominant” in the sense of being considered the best, nor statistically when compared to his peers. It’s a “jack-of-all-trades scenario that is unique and rare.

I guess it just boils down if you think top tier at two completely different roles is more valuable than top of one role.

I guess I just see someone who can hit 50 homes and steal 50 bases AND be a Cy Young level pitcher as more dominant than someone playing one way. it's more than just a jack-of-all-trade/cute/unique situation. It's a fair point that he has to put it all together but I think you're severely downplaying the potential WAR of a guy who can dominate both sides of the game even more so than a position defender. If you want to say he hasn't done it yet I can understand that and I think it's reasonable. But to suggest he'd have to be the league's #1 pitcher AND hitter to be more dominant than the others, I can't get on board.

 

[crowfish]

Lmao the polling 60%+ for Ohtani is insane. He is like 50% of a McDavid calibre talent. The season he is currently having is like the 250th best all-time for WAR. McDavids 2022 season is 10x crazier than anything Ohtani has done or will do. The overhyping on him is insane, and clearly even the hockey fans are buying into it.

There is not a single argument you can make for Ohtani being better at baseball than McDavid is at hockey, none. The polling is ass backwards. It bugs me when people vote based on popularity instead of what the specifications of the poll are.

 

[strattonius]

Lmao the polling 60%+ for Ohtani is insane. He is like 50% of a McDavid calibre talent. The season he is currently having is like the 250th best all-time for WAR. McDavids 2022 season is 10x crazier than anything Ohtani has done or will do. The overhyping on him is insane, and clearly even the hockey fans are buying into it.

There is not a single argument you can make for Ohtani being better at baseball than McDavid is at hockey, none. The polling is ass backwards. It bugs me when people vote based on popularity instead of what the specifications of the poll are.

He's the first player EVER to record 50HR and 50steals in a season.

He is going to win MVP.

How is this over-rated?

McDavid didn't even win the Hart last year.

 

[Albatros]

Lmao the polling 60%+ for Ohtani is insane. He is like 50% of a McDavid calibre talent. The season he is currently having is like the 250th best all-time for WAR.

If WAR is to be believed, all the best baseball players played more than a hundred years ago. I guess in hockey we should talk more about the talents that were Joe Malone, Babe Dye, and Newsy Lalonde as well instead of McDavid.

 

[DJJones]

Anybody not voting Ohtani are simply wrong on this one.

Ya I don't even watch Baseball but it's Ohtani.

Never seen so many people label someone the best ever. Especially in such a traditional sport like baseball.

 

[blundluntman]

I do get the distinction between unique and dominant tbf. Ohtani has a good argument for the most talented/gifted out of the 3, but dominance is more about blowing the competition out of the water than it is about being right at the top in multiple fields (especially when you're the only one doing it). As a hitter, he isn't dominating to the same degree as McDavid usually does scoring wide, I'd assume the same for pitching. Is there a metric where he's actually dominant to the same degree? Maybe something measuring a player's net value?