Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[freakydallas13]

Obviously if Ohtani did something equal to 100 goals and 100 assists it would be the greatest achievement ever in individual sports... The point I was making is that the 50/50 season is nowhere near that (nowhere remotely close), yet people are hyping it up with extreme levels of hyperbole like that.

Ah, I misunderstood that you were mocking the 100/100 comparison, not defending it. Carry on.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I dunno. I think there are some great points in here. I just think the versatility is being undervalued in the best arguments, mocked as “aww that’s cute and unique” in the others.

 

[Machinehead]

I dunno. I think there are some great points in here. I just think the versatility is being undervalued in the best arguments, mocked as “aww that’s cute and unique” in the others.

I do think it can go a bit far when it's things like "it's the first game with 5xbh, and 3 of them were homers, and it was Wednesday, and the moon was out."

Lemieux's "five goals five different ways" is probably the best hockey equivalent. He scored five goals. The rest of that story is cute.

There's nothing cute about 50-50. Stolen bases and homeruns drive value. That's a ton of both. He's gonna finish with a 9+ WAR this year at the plate. No pitching, no defense.

If he is pitching and keeps up this level of offense (which won't be easy) he could legit put up a WAR in the teens. If he does, he probably moves up my list here. I've been going back and forth with him and Mahomes.

 

[Cas]

There's nothing cute about 50-50. Stolen bases and homeruns drive value. That's a ton of both. He's gonna finish with a 9+ WAR this year at the plate. No pitching, no defense.

If he is pitching and keeps up this level of offense (which won't be easy) he could legit put up a WAR in the teens. If he does, he probably moves up my list here. I've been going back and forth with him and Mahomes.

The real issue here is that while stolen bases and home runs both drive value, they do so at wildly different rates.

Home runs are worth a lot - an average of 1.4 runs, with a guaranteed minimum of one run. Stolen bases are worth about 0.2 runs apiece - the advantage of moving a runner from first to second or even third just isn't that much, compared to putting a runner on in the first place.

The combination of power and speed to reach high round numbers in both is very impressive because it speaks to a diverse and talented skill set, but it's not necessarily all that valuable.

Vladimir Guerrero had 34 HR and 37 SB in 2001, but his basestealing was so inefficient that he probably was just as valuable on the basepaths as Sammy Sosa, who stole zero bases. This is because Sosa was caught stealing twice, made two outs on base, and took 17 extra bases, while Guerrero was caught stealing 16 times and made 15 outs on base, with 24 extra bases taken. Guerrero moved a runner forward 61 times at the cost of 31 outs; Sosa moved a runner forward 17 times at the cost of 4 outs.

The 50-50, 40-40, or 30-30 feats are impressive, but the stolen base component is just ludicrously less valuable than the home run component, even if you're extremely efficient at stealing (which Ohtani is). It's more hyped than it is worth in terms of actual runs, and so, yes, it's a little "cute."

 

[MNRube]

Mahomes is more valuable than either McDavid or Ohtani. Good QB play in football just goes further for winning than anything the other two guys can offer. Jokic is probably 2nd behind Mahomes.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

I am sorry but throwing a baseball is not comparable to a forward playing goalie lol. They routinely send position players to pitch in blowouts in baseball.

Harder to effectively throw a baseball. Many of those position players used to be pitchers in the minors.

 

[Cas]

If an NHL player put up 100 assists and 100 goals in a season it would be the most insane season a single NHL player has ever had. Not only is that the second player all time to reach 200 points, it's also the 8 goals more than Gretzky, the greatest player of all time, had ever scored.

If 50/50 in baseball is the equivalent to 100/100 in hockey, you're talking about probably the best season any player in that league will *ever* play. That seems significant.

This is more like a player scoring 60 goals and getting 200 hits. The goals are great, the hits are interesting and indicative of something, but not really all that valuable in and of themselves.

 

[freakydallas13]

This is more like a player scoring 60 goals and getting 200 hits. The goals are great, the hits are interesting and indicative of something, but not really all that valuable in and of themselves.

I'd say a closer analogy for stolen bases in hockey would be penalties drawn. Something that undoubtedly helps your team win, but doesn't really win the game for you just by doing that.

Hits are more "that's a thing you can do that sometimes doesn't impact the game at all", at least drawing a penalty is impactful.

 

[Cas]

I'd say a closer analogy for stolen bases in hockey would be penalties drawn. Something that undoubtedly helps your team win, but doesn't really win the game for you just by doing that.

Hits are more "that's a thing you can do that sometimes doesn't impact the game at all", at least drawing a penalty is impactful.

That's entirely fair.