Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[Cas]

I do get the distinction between unique and dominant tbf. Ohtani has a good argument for the most talented/gifted out of the 3, but dominance is more about blowing the competition out of the water than it is about being right at the top in multiple fields (especially when you're the only one doing it). As a hitter, he isn't dominating to the same degree as McDavid usually does scoring wide, I'd assume the same for pitching. Is there a metric where he's actually dominant to the same degree? Maybe something measuring a player's net value?

He's been the most valuable player in the league over the past four seasons overall, over Judge, but it's not a huge margin (about 5.5 WAR over four years). Judge has been better this year.

That's quite dominant, but not overwhelmingly dominant. It's also a four year span (though to be fair, very few players dominate the league for longer than that, because it's hard).

Most people are just bowled over because Ohtani does a lot of different things. That's not the same thing as value, as you note.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I would probably go with Mahomes because not only is he amazing individually but he is winning championships also.

 

[blundluntman]

He's been the most valuable player in the league over the past four seasons overall, over Judge, but it's not a huge margin (about 5.5 WAR over four years). Judge has been better this year.

That's quite dominant, but not overwhelmingly dominant. It's also a four year span (though to be fair, very few players dominate the league for longer than that, because it's hard).

Most people are just bowled over because Ohtani does a lot of different things. That's not the same thing as value, as you note.

Yeah I think dominant the wrong word to use when describing Ohtani's greatness. It's kinda like how Prince was a master in so many aspects of music that one wouldn't expect. He may not be the greatest vocalist/guitarist of all time, but combining all those things together put him in a different stratosphere. Same thing with a guy like Orr who isn't the greatest offensive or defensive player of all time (albeit, he's right there at the top in both)

 

[Cas]

Yeah I think dominant the wrong word to use when describing Ohtani's greatness. It's kinda like how Prince was a master in so many aspects of music that one wouldn't expect. He may not be the greatest vocalist/guitarist of all time, but combining all those things together put him in a different stratosphere. Same thing with a guy like Orr who isn't the greatest offensive or defensive player of all time (albeit, he's right there at the top in both)

I would argue that Ohtani is not in a different stratosphere. Doing more different things well is not inherently better than doing one or two things really well. Ohtani doesn't get any more credit for pitching and hitting than the mere sum of his value as a hitter and as a pitcher (which is very high, but not unheard-of - there are numerous players who peaked as high or higher than Ohtani has).

 

[blundluntman]

I would argue that Ohtani is not in a different stratosphere. Doing more different things well is not inherently better than doing one or two things really well. Ohtani doesn't get any more credit for pitching and hitting than the mere sum of his value as a hitter and as a pitcher (which is very high, but not unheard-of - there are numerous players who peaked as high or higher than Ohtani has).

I don't watch baseball so I can't say for sure but that sounds fair enough. I'd imagine talent/versatility-wise he may be in a tier of his own but I'm not sure. Either way, he's one hell of a spectacle/player

 

[Cas]

I don't watch baseball so I can't say for sure but that sounds fair enough. I'd imagine talent/versatility-wise he may be in a tier of his own but I'm not sure. Either way, he's one hell of a spectacle/player

The talent and versatility are ludicrous, but the hockey equivalent would be something like a forward playing 30 games in goal. His value would be his value as a forward in 50 games, and his value as a goalie in 30 games, and not some additional value thereof (it's not like the versatility brings much in the way of roster benefits, either, because the team still needs two other goalies).

 

[Machinehead]

I think the gap between Mahomes and the 2nd best QB is way smaller than the gap between McDavid and the 2nd best hockey player. And I say that as a lifelong Chiefs fan since 2018.

I don't know how you compare Ohtani to those two. Boiling his talent down to WAR just takes away the raw fact that nobody in 100 years can do what he does.

You were born in 2018?

 

[Machinehead]

I have to say, I do think people overrate Ohtani as a pitcher. I feel like people throw out that he's the best at both. He's not.

As a hitter, yes. At worst he's #2, and if you put him at #2, he's a lot closer to Judge than he is to #3.

As a pitcher, he was 11th in WAR and 14th in FIP over 2021, 2022, and 2023. Don't get me wrong, he's an excellent pitcher and it's impressive that he can do any kind of high-level pitching while being an elite MLB bat, but I don't think there has ever not been five pitchers better than him at any given time.

Caitlin Clark is the WNBA’s Gretzky and she’s only a rookie.

If there were a WNBA player in this poll, it's A'ja Wilson.

Clark is a rookie, yes, but right now she's not in A'ja's solar system.

 

[blundluntman]

The talent and versatility are ludicrous, but the hockey equivalent would be something like a forward playing 30 games in goal. His value would be his value as a forward in 50 games, and his value as a goalie in 30 games, and not some additional value thereof (it's not like the versatility brings much in the way of roster benefits, either, because the team still needs two other goalies).

Ah that makes perfect sense when you put it that way

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Last year it was Ohtani and there was no serious conversation to be had.
This year, considering he's not pitching, the gap is much closer and I think all 3 athletes have a case.

 

[crowfish]

He's the first player EVER to record 50HR and 50steals in a season.

He is going to win MVP.

How is this over-rated?

McDavid didn't even win the Hart last year.

A couple of things,

The MLB MVP and NHL MVP are not comparable. The MLB awards 2 MVPs, one for each league. It would be like if there was a Western Conference MVP and an Eastern Conference MVP in hockey. In the MLB you can also win the MVP regardless of if your team makes the playoffs, which rarely if ever happens in hockey.

Connor McDavid would have 5 MVPs at an absolute minimum if the NHL MVP worked the same way as the MLB MVP. He would have won in 2017-18, he was 5th because the Oilers missed the playoffs but he was the clear best player in the league that year. He also wins in 2021-22 since he was 2nd behind Matthews who is in a different conference.

Ohtani would not be in line to win the MVP this year if it worked like the NHL, that would be Aaron Judge, who is having a better season by basically every metric besides stolen bases.

"He's the first player EVER to record 50HR and 50steals in a season."

I am not claiming that this is not a cool milestone, but the 50-50 is being way overhyped for what it is. Ronald Acuna last year had 41 HR and 73 SB, which you could easily argue is more impressive, at best it's a toss-up. I saw a post where someone compared Ohtanis 50-50 to if someone in the NHL had 100 goals & 100 assists lol. Is it a great milestone? Yes, does it match the amount of press it is currently getting? No. Ohtani doesn't play defence and stolen base numbers are way up in the past few seasons. He is only 6th in WAR this season, if he was having some sort of historic year offensively it would show up in the value stats.

 

[Regal]

He's the first player EVER to record 50HR and 50steals in a season.

He is going to win MVP.

How is this over-rated?

McDavid didn't even win the Hart last year.

The fascination with this is exactly why

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The fascination with this is exactly why

Plus it's easier to get steals the last two years than ever before.

 

[strattonius]

The fascination with this is exactly why

Ohtani is overrated because of the 50hr 50 steal hype. What a horrendous argument.

 

[Regal]

I have to say, I do think people overrate Ohtani as a pitcher. I feel like people throw out that he's the best at both. He's not.

As a hitter, yes. At worst he's #2, and if you put him at #2, he's a lot closer to Judge than he is to #3.

As a pitcher, he was 11th in WAR and 14th in FIP over 2021, 2022, and 2023. Don't get me wrong, he's an excellent pitcher and it's impressive that he can do any kind of high-level pitching while being an elite MLB bat, but I don't think there has ever not been five pitchers better than him at any given time.


If there were a WNBA player in this poll, it's A'ja Wilson.

Clark is a rookie, yes, but right now she's not in A'ja's solar system.

It should also be noted that he only really became the clear best/second best hitter in the last two years. The two before that he was very good but didn’t really stand out from the rest of the top 10 or so.

Ohtani is overrated because of the 50hr 50 steal hype. What a horrendous argument.

He’s overrated because people are too focused on some random thing that “has never been done before” instead of putting the value of the season as a whole into context. Using “50-50” as a sole argument is actually what’s horrendous.

 

[John Price]

ohtani ainec

 

[crowfish]

The talent and versatility are ludicrous, but the hockey equivalent would be something like a forward playing 30 games in goal. His value would be his value as a forward in 50 games, and his value as a goalie in 30 games, and not some additional value thereof (it's not like the versatility brings much in the way of roster benefits, either, because the team still needs two other goalies).

I am sorry but throwing a baseball is not comparable to a forward playing goalie lol. They routinely send position players to pitch in blowouts in baseball.

 

[Voight]

A couple of things,

The MLB MVP and NHL MVP are not comparable. The MLB awards 2 MVPs, one for each league. It would be like if there was a Western Conference MVP and an Eastern Conference MVP in hockey. In the MLB you can also win the MVP regardless of if your team makes the playoffs, which rarely if ever happens in hockey.

Connor McDavid would have 5 MVPs at an absolute minimum if the NHL MVP worked the same way as the MLB MVP. He would have won in 2017-18, he was 5th because the Oilers missed the playoffs but he was the clear best player in the league that year. He also wins in 2021-22 since he was 2nd behind Matthews who is in a different conference.

Ohtani would not be in line to win the MVP this year if it worked like the NHL, that would be Aaron Judge, who is having a better season by basically every metric besides stolen bases.

"He's the first player EVER to record 50HR and 50steals in a season."

I am not claiming that this is not a cool milestone, but the 50-50 is being way overhyped for what it is. Ronald Acuna last year had 41 HR and 73 SB, which you could easily argue is more impressive, at best it's a toss-up. I saw a post where someone compared Ohtanis 50-50 to if someone in the NHL had 100 goals & 100 assists lol. Is it a great milestone? Yes, does it match the amount of press it is currently getting? No. Ohtani doesn't play defence and stolen base numbers are way up in the past few seasons. He is only 6th in WAR this season, if he was having some sort of historic year offensively it would show up in the value stats.

MLB has a playoff bias too when it comes to MVP. Hence why Mike Trout only won three in his prime.

 

[Cas]

I am sorry but throwing a baseball is not comparable to a forward playing goalie lol. They routinely send position players to pitch in blowouts in baseball.

I don't care which is harder (and pitching is incredibly, incredibly hard), I care about putting the unique nature of Ohtani's skill set into a hockey context for someone on a hockey forum who doesn't watch much baseball, as well as contextualizing the actual value of that skill set (it would be equivalent to the combined value of a forward and goalie of equal performance, and not greater than the sum of those parts).

 

[Golden_Jet]

I am sorry but throwing a baseball is not comparable to a forward playing goalie lol. They routinely send position players to pitch in blowouts in baseball.

not so much anymore rules changed 2 years ago.

 

[Voight]

You were born in 2018?

I honestly got the impression he was being somewhat sarcastic, since that's exactly when the Chiefs became relevant for the first in years.

 

[TheBeard]

I once said Ohtani when he was pitching, but at this point i'm going Connor.

Ohtani does two things really well; steal bases and hit homeruns. Mahomes, like any QB, is still reliant on a variety of factors. The defense is actually better than the offense right now and without weapons Mahomes is proving to be just... ordinary.

What Connor does, can do single-handedly in a game is what stands out for me.

 

[nafrelio]

Okay, I literally had no idea until 2 minutes ago when I started reading this thread that Ohtani was a pitcher. Just thought he was an elite batter. Hmmph. Impressive.

I just feel so fortunate to get to watch McDavid play. I think watching him play is much more entertaining than the repeated one second intervals of a baseball player doing a baseball "thing" and also more entertaining than the 4 second intervals of a quarterback doing a football "thing".

 

[freakydallas13]

I saw a post where someone compared Ohtanis 50-50 to if someone in the NHL had 100 goals & 100 assists lol. Is it a great milestone? Yes, does it match the amount of press it is currently getting? No. Ohtani doesn't play defence and stolen base numbers are way up in the past few seasons. He is only 6th in WAR this season, if he was having some sort of historic year offensively it would show up in the value stats.

If an NHL player put up 100 assists and 100 goals in a season it would be the most insane season a single NHL player has ever had. Not only is that the second player all time to reach 200 points, it's also the 8 goals more than Gretzky, the greatest player of all time, had ever scored.

If 50/50 in baseball is the equivalent to 100/100 in hockey, you're talking about probably the best season any player in that league will *ever* play. That seems significant.

 

[crowfish]

If an NHL player put up 100 assists and 100 goals in a season it would be the most insane season an single NHL player has ever had. Not only is that the second player all time to reach 200 points, it's also the 8 goals more than Gretzky, the greatest player of all time, had ever scored.

If 50/50 in baseball is the equivalent to 100/100 in hockey, you're talking about probably the best season any player in that league will *ever* play. That seems significant.

Obviously if Ohtani did something equal to 100 goals and 100 assists it would be the greatest achievement ever in individual sports... The point I was making is that the 50/50 season is nowhere near that (nowhere remotely close), yet people are hyping it up with extreme levels of hyperbole like that.