Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[John Mandalorian]

People asking who is Ohtani is insane to me. He's a once in a lifetime player. Hands down the answer is Ohtani and it's not even close. There is a reason he got paid 700 million.

This is a bizarre conversation that you’re characterizing. People are asking you “who is Ohtani” and you’re saying the answer is Ohtani and it’s not even close?

Is it possible you’re imagining too many scenarios and they’re blending together?

 

[Video Nasty]

The poll results are both bizarre and ignorant. Yes, hitting is one of the most difficult things in all of sports. But that doesn’t mean it impacts winning the way playing QB at a high level does. Some of the comments in here are just laughable.

As someone who voted for Ohtani a year ago or whatever it was, I think two things are happening with Mahomes here.

1. Long time NFL fans can easily see how favorable the rules are for QBs and their weapons compared to the past. Mahomes joined a team already on the rise and has played his entire career so far under these favorable conditions. He has all the stats going for him, he’s already racked up an excellent amount of SB’s and counting stats, but I think there’s an element of waiting to see how he handles true adversity at play.

2. Watching 43 year old Brady and the Bucs beat the hell out of 26 year old Mahomes and the Chiefs takes a little bit of the shine off Mahomes. And to a lesser extent, as does losing to 41 year old Brady. Some, like myself, are not lamenting how Mahomes would have more accolades if he didn’t run into the GOAT. No, they are looking at SB 55 in particular as a reason why Mahomes will never be considered better than Brady, no matter how much he compiles during a full career where it’s almost impossible for a talent like Mahomes to have his receiving corps touched and throwing picks seem to be constantly be reversed. Brady has barely been gone by this point, he so recently beat the newly minted best in the game as an old man, and I think it’s making it borderline impossible for Mahomes to impress in the same way. For now at least.

There’s something of an artificial dominance whenever I watch Mahomes and the Chiefs. He’s certainly the best in the game today and what I’ve shared isn’t exactly a hill I’m willing to die on, but those are my speculations on why he’s firmly last here, other than the obvious of it being a hockey forum making it unlikely the hockey candidate will ever be last.

 

[Sabre the Win]

This is a bizarre conversation that you’re characterizing. People are asking you “who is Ohtani” and you’re saying the answer is Ohtani and it’s not even close?

Is it possible you’re imagining too many scenarios and they’re blending together?

What?

 

[Regal]

I still struggle to understand those who are so focused on a single aspect of a season that’s something rare, rather than contextualizing the whole season. 50-50 is cool to see, but labelling it “historic” doesn’t make it dominant in itself. Ohtani’s still a ways back of Judge for best offensive player this year. Just like 100 assists was a rare feat but didn’t in itself make Kucherov clearly better than MacKinnon this year.

 

[Dfence033]

I still struggle to understand those who are so focused on a single aspect of a season that’s something rare, rather than contextualizing the whole season. 50-50 is cool to see, but labelling it “historic” doesn’t make it dominant in itself. Ohtani’s still a ways back of Judge for best offensive player this year. Just like 100 assists was a rare feat but didn’t in itself make Kucherov clearly better than MacKinnon this year.

Doubly so because it’s a cherry picked “history.” 41/73 happened just last year, and no one ever had even 40/60 before. Why wasn’t Acuna picked instead of Ohtani? That was an equally historic season of the same uniqueness (HR and SB). Judge became like the 4th player ever with 50+ HR seasons 3 or more times, meaning he’s had statistical dominance over a longer period of time, but Ohtani was picked instead.

People are enamored by Ohtani pitching and hitting, and conflating his big year batting and running with “imagine he is an ace pitcher, too!” The issue is: we’ve seen him do both over multiple seasons, and the batting and baserunning results weren’t close to this. There is a reason for that and a reason why doing both is incredibly rare. But it seems too many are remembering Ohtani as a top pitcher, and now seeing him as one of the top DH’s and think he’s both at the same time. Babe Ruth eventually gave up pitching because his bat was far more valuable as an everyday player, and his career stats went from “he’s the best in the league,” to “he’s going to go down as the best of all time.” It’s not coincidental, but it’s being deeply discounted too many times in this thread.

Again, despite the “historic” season, Ohtani is still likely going to finish 6th in WAR this year for non-pitchers. It’s a hell of a lot harder to make a case for him than the other two, who are almost unanimously considered the best of their sports’ generations by way of clear statistical separation from their peers. Ohtani isn’t in that “unanimous best of sport” class - he’s just unique and great simultaneously.

 

[CraigBillington]

If McDavid were a star-level goalie as well, I would consider him.

 

[Dfence033]

If McDavid were a star-level goalie as well, I would consider him.

Why wouldn’t you consider him because he’s separated himself as the best offensive player of his era by 12-16% in nearly every measure?

And/or: why does Ohtani get special credit for being the 6th best offense-only player in his sport because he was formerly also a good pitcher (before he was a great hitter)?

I don’t understand why being great (top 5-10ish) at two things, but not the best, is being rated so much higher than a player separating themselves by double digit percentages over 2nd place in multiple categories.

Edit: and to further this, why McDavid, as a pass-first center, scored 64 goals last season to lead the NHL - a total bested by exactly 2 active players both known exclusively for their goal scoring - followed by the 1st 100 assist season in 25 years, isn’t being given the same credentials for being great at two things while also creating such remarkable separation from his peers, which is what Ohtani hasn’t done.

 

[Team_Spirit]

McDavid is not the hockey comp.

Bobby Orr Norris+Art Ross seasons.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Doubly so because it’s a cherry picked “history.” 41/73 happened just last year, and no one ever had even 40/60 before. Why wasn’t Acuna picked instead of Ohtani? That was an equally historic season of the same uniqueness (HR and SB). Judge became like the 4th player ever with 50+ HR seasons 3 or more times, meaning he’s had statistical dominance over a longer period of time, but Ohtani was picked instead.

People are enamored by Ohtani pitching and hitting, and conflating his big year batting and running with “imagine he is an ace pitcher, too!” The issue is: we’ve seen him do both over multiple seasons, and the batting and baserunning results weren’t close to this. There is a reason for that and a reason why doing both is incredibly rare. But it seems too many are remembering Ohtani as a top pitcher, and now seeing him as one of the top DH’s and think he’s both at the same time. Babe Ruth eventually gave up pitching because his bat was far more valuable as an everyday player, and his career stats went from “he’s the best in the league,” to “he’s going to go down as the best of all time.” It’s not coincidental, but it’s being deeply discounted too many times in this thread.

Again, despite the “historic” season, Ohtani is still likely going to finish 6th in WAR this year for non-pitchers. It’s a hell of a lot harder to make a case for him than the other two, who are almost unanimously considered the best of their sports’ generations by way of clear statistical separation from their peers. Ohtani isn’t in that “unanimous best of sport” class - he’s just unique and great simultaneously.

What statistical separation does Mahomes have other than superbowl wins?

 

[DFF]

Blows my f***ing mind Mahomes is 3rd in this poll.

NFL QB is by far the hardest position in all of pro sports. At least in team pro sports. On every given down you have nearly 1100lbs of lineman trying to put you down. You have to read a defense in less time than it takes to flush a toilet. Then you have to have the athleticism to actually hit your moving target with this ball accurately from sometimes 50-60yds away. This guy makes it look like he's dicking around at the park with his buddies. He's actually won the whole thing with his team three times now which is the penultimate goal of participating.

I don't even like the guy all that much and but he clears Shohei and McD easily.

Except he wasn’t even the most dominant guy in his own sports. Brady was better

 

[Bounces R Way]

Except he wasn’t even the most dominant guy in his own sports. Brady was better

Brady is a baby back little bitch.

Tom vs Time
FTX
Ugg boots.

Gisele was right to leave his candy ass.

 

[Dfence033]

What statistical separation does Mahomes have other than superbowl wins?

Since 2018 (Mahomes’s first season, not counting one game in 2017):

1st in total passing yards, 9% higher than 2nd (Goff)
1st in passing yards per game, 5% more than 2nd (Brady)
1st in passing TD, 21% higher than 2nd (Wilson)
1st in QBR
1st in TD%
3rd in INT%

I’m sure there are others, but by nearly all measures of QB success he is in 1st with more than a slight separation in total yards, yards per game, and passing TDs. The only exception is INT%, where his 1.7% is beaten by Tom
Brady (1.6%), and Aaron Rodgers (1.0) during that span. 2nd place is also different for each category, showing how hard it is to be 1st place in more than one of these, yet Mahomes is in 1st in 5 of 6.

 

[John Mandalorian]

What statistical separation does Mahomes have other than superbowl wins?

Winning Super Bowls is insignificant? Are you being serious with this?

 

[Dfence033]

Winning Super Bowls is insignificant? Are you being serious with this?

I think it’s valid to ask the question, assuming they weren’t being disingenuous with it. Championships, no matter how many, are a team achievement in all three sports in which individual players have only part of the total influence over. See above for the answer, if interested.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I think

Congratulations.

 

[Fatass]

Winning Super Bowls is insignificant? Are you being serious with this?

Exactly! Until Ohtani and MacDavid lead their teams to championships they will not be in the same tier of greatness as Mahomes or any of the greats who were key in championship victories.

 

[Dfence033]

Congratulations.

Okay then. That’s a fairly confrontational response to someone replying with no hostility, especially when I actually agreed with you…

 

[John Mandalorian]

Exactly! Until Ohtani and MacDavid lead their teams to championships they will not be in the same tier of greatness as Mahomes or any of the greats who were key in championship victories.

Just think about it. Every great player was once valued on their team by how they helped them win. This goes back to childhood. If a player thinks they were valued because of how much they scored and not because of how much they helped their team win, then they’re super confused and probably cheat the game.

“The team, the team, the team.”

- Bo Schembechler

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I think the gap between Mahomes and the 2nd best QB is way smaller than the gap between McDavid and the 2nd best hockey player. And I say that as a lifelong Chiefs fan since 2018.

I don't know how you compare Ohtani to those two. Boiling his talent down to WAR just takes away the raw fact that nobody in 100 years can do what he does.

 

[MCR74]

McDavid doesn't belong in the conversation.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Caitlin Clark is the WNBA’s Gretzky and she’s only a rookie.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Ohtani is very dominant in his pastime.

 

[Fatass]

I think the gap between Mahomes and the 2nd best QB is way smaller than the gap between McDavid and the 2nd best hockey player. And I say that as a lifelong Chiefs fan since 2018.

I don't know how you compare Ohtani to those two. Boiling his talent down to WAR just takes away the raw fact that nobody in 100 years can do what he does.

Did McDavid win the Hart last year? Did he win the Conn Smythe? Did he lead his team to the title? Mahomes is in a higher tier than McDavid.

 

[Dfence033]

I think the gap between Mahomes and the 2nd best QB is way smaller than the gap between McDavid and the 2nd best hockey player. And I say that as a lifelong Chiefs fan since 2018.

I don't know how you compare Ohtani to those two. Boiling his talent down to WAR just takes away the raw fact that nobody in 100 years can do what he does.

Agreed on the first point. Mahomes, while statistically the best at his position since joining, has smaller advantages over 2nd place than McDavid does. McDavid is crushing his competition by double digit percentages across the board. The only argument is “championships,” which in a team sport of 19 players is silly to me. It’s often conflated with “winning,” as above. A better sample size tells a much more convincing argument: the Oilers are 23%+ more successful at winning with McDavid in the game vs not. One player having a correlation of 20+% on winning, when the average player on a team of 19 would have roughly 5% influence on a win is enormous, even if it hasn’t resulted in a Cup win (yet).

Talent vs. “domination,” as the original question. There is little doubt of Ohtani’s talent, but WAR is generally accepted as one of the most accurate measures of a player’s value in all of team sports. Additionally, while Ohtani is very talented, he’s not even in the top 5 most valuable non-pitchers this season, despite his talent and “historic” (unique) season. I’ll continue to say: being unique doesn’t mean you are dominant.

 

[Dfence033]

Caitlin Clark is the WNBA’s Gretzky and she’s only a rookie.

I like Clark, and she’s had a great season as a rookie. But… Gretzky won the league scoring title as a rookie, Clark tied for 7th. Maybe not the best comparison for her to suggest she’s in the class of someone widely considered the GOAT across all prominent team sports considering how far he separated himself from anyone who has ever played. She’s had a great career already (including college), but that comparison is an enormous stretch.