Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[MCR74]

Did McDavid win the Hart last year? Did he win the Conn Smythe? Did he lead his team to the title? Mahomes is in a higher tier than McDavid.

Very.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Did McDavid win the Hart last year? Did he win the Conn Smythe? Did he lead his team to the title? Mahomes is in a higher tier than McDavid.

You can judge guys based on their awards or based on their actual ability. I guess that's where we differ.

And to answer the bolded - he did, in fact.

 

[Dfence033]

You can judge guys based on their awards or based on their actual ability. I guess that's where we differ.

And to answer the bolded - he did, in fact.

Furthering the point that no single player can win a championship by themselves on a roster of 18 other players on their own team. I’ve always found the idea ridiculous that the only measure of a player for many is how many championship teams they played on.

Football has 22 “starters” per team.
Hockey has 19 per team.
Baseball has 9.
Basketball has 5.
Tennis and golf have 1.

Which sports are most likely to have the highest variance between individual player dominance and team championships? An individually dominant player can make it more likely their team wins a championship, but hardly guarantees it in a league of 30+ teams.

 

[Fatass]

Furthering the point that no single player can win a championship by themselves on a roster of 18 other players on their own team. I’ve always found the idea ridiculous that the only measure of a player for many is how many championship teams they played on.

Football has 22 “starters” per team.
Hockey has 19 per team.
Baseball has 9.
Basketball has 5.
Tennis and golf have 1.

Which sports are most likely to have the highest variance between individual player dominance and team championships? An individually dominant player can make it more likely their team wins a championship, but hardly guarantees it in a league of 30+ teams.

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

Yeah you might want to run that one by oilers fans I think you’d be surprised lol…..

 

[Dfence033]

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

This is exactly why I contest this idea. Messier had Hall-of-Famers Gretzky, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr, and Lowe off the top of my head on those Oilers teams. That’s an HoF player at every position on the same team.

As a Rangers fan, I also believe he is vastly over-attributed to them winning in 94. He had Gartner, Zubov, and Leetch as HoF in addition to his EDM buddies in Anderson, Tikkanen, Beukeboom, McTavish, Lowe, and I think I’m missing at least one more.

The goal is to win championships, but would anyone dare suggest Gretzky was not the best ever if he never won a Cup?

 

[John Mandalorian]

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

Yeah. This would be a more valid conversation if you substitute Sidney Crosby for CM. Sid scored a lot and contributed to winning also. It’s also kind of interesting that the 4 Cs who have reputations for 2 way play over the past 15 years have 7 rings combined. But by all means, let’s overlook Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, and Barkov and focus on scoring as much as possible and ignore possible costs that come with that.

If you’re counting rings as a result of impacting winning and not merely stats, the gap between Mahomes and his contemporaries at the moment is pretty significant.

 

[DFF]

has any done what McDavid has done before? Yes, Gretzky, Lemieux and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Mahomes has done before? Yes, Brady, Montana, Elway and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Ohtani has done before? Nobody, none zilch….

 

[DFF]

And if you are taking position important then just close the thread and give it to whoever the best QB …..there isn’t a more important position in Sports….no comparison

 

[Fatass]

This is exactly why I contest this idea. Messier had Hall-of-Famers Gretzky, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr, and Lowe off the top of my head on those Oilers teams. That’s an HoF player at every position on the same team.

As a Rangers fan, I also believe he is vastly over-attributed to them winning in 94. He had Gartner, Zubov, and Leetch as HoF in addition to his EDM buddies in Anderson, Tikkanen, Beukeboom, McTavish, Lowe, and I think I’m missing at least one more.

The goal is to win championships, but would anyone dare suggest Gretzky was not the best ever if he never won a Cup?

Gretzky was key to winning four, so it’s a moot point.
The greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. That’s what separates them from the very good.

 

[Dfence033]

has any done what McDavid has done before? Yes, Gretzky, Lemieux and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Mahomes has done before? Yes, Brady, Montana, Elway and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Ohtani has done before? Nobody, none zilch….

Okay, then Ronald Acuna Jr. is also the most dominant player in baseball. No MLB player ever hit 40HRs and 60SB in the same season. He had 41/73.

Kris Letang is the most dominant defenseman in the NHL. No D player has ever scored 5 points in a period before last season.

Tyreek Hill is the most dominant WR is NFL history, as no one else has ever had 5 150 yard receiving games with at least 1 TD.

This is why the idea is ridiculous to me. No one (or very few) have made the above three claims. Why is Ohtani somehow different?

Gretzky was key to winning four, so it’s a moot point.
The greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. That’s what separates them from the very good.

Okay, so Gretzky being the key to winning 4 means what for Messier being on those teams, but being credited as a better player than McDavid in this thread for… winning Cups?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Winning Super Bowls is insignificant? Are you being serious with this?

Where in the world did I say that was insignificant? What an incredible straw man argument/comment

Since 2018 (Mahomes’s first season, not counting one game in 2017):

1st in total passing yards, 9% higher than 2nd (Goff)
1st in passing yards per game, 5% more than 2nd (Brady)
1st in passing TD, 21% higher than 2nd (Wilson)
1st in QBR
1st in TD%
3rd in INT%

I’m sure there are others, but by nearly all measures of QB success he is in 1st with more than a slight separation in total yards, yards per game, and passing TDs. The only exception is INT%, where his 1.7% is beaten by Tom
Brady (1.6%), and Aaron Rodgers (1.0) during that span. 2nd place is also different for each category, showing how hard it is to be 1st place in more than one of these, yet Mahomes is in 1st in 5 of 6.

Actual good reply, thanks!

 

[John Mandalorian]

Where in the world did I say that was insignificant? What an incredible straw man argument/comment



Actual good reply, thanks!

You wanted to look past SB wins, no? You’re looking for other reasons to pretend the others are on the same level...like this is little league and everyone is getting a trophy when their teams haven won anything yet. You’re peddling some weird form of sports talk welfare.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You wanted to look past SB wins, no? You’re looking for other reasons to pretend the others are on the same level...like this is little league and everyone is getting a trophy when their teams haven won anything yet. You’re peddling some weird form of sports talk welfare.

I asked someone was Mahomes statistical difference was, and they answered. I asked beyond super bowls because the conversation was about individual stats and I am aware of his Super Bowl wins.

I agree he is number one in his sport.

I have no idea what you are taking about. I think you need to log off or something, this is a bizarre internet conversation where nothing you are saying makes sense or what I’m doing. Pretending others on his level? Participation trophies? Sports talk welfare? All because I asked what the statistical separation was someone was mentioning. Yikes

 

[Regal]

Interesting. Seems a fair enough explanation.

As for interleague play, I never really thought about it like that. I don’t mind MLB continuing separate awards, considering it’s still what, 115-120 games being played inside their own league?

I would definitely be interested to see where voters would slot Ohtani this year if he was still in the AL, with the same season (aka still on the hapless Angels). Even though what you say makes a good case for Witt, it’s hard to imagine it wouldn’t be the alternate Judge-Ohtani vote for a fourth straight season.

I don’t mind them separating it still either, I just mean it’s more of a situation where you’re going to sometimes have better years in one league than the other where there’s two MVPs but they’re not actually the two most valuable players, and it’s harder to suggest we can’t compare their stats because the leagues don’t play each other. The DH now existing in both also means there aren’t a lot of differences (before you could argue pitchers had it harder in the AL for example).

I don’t disagree that it would probably still go Judge-Ohtani in voting if Ohtani were still in the AL, but I think that’s a product of narratives that we frequently see with awards. Witt’s seasons has been largely ignored unfortunately despite him having the best SS season in 20 years (since at least A-Rods early 2000s years and arguably since Ripken’s MVP in ‘91).

 

[Dfence033]

I don’t mind them separating it still either, I just mean it’s more of a situation where you’re going to sometimes have better years in one league than the other where there’s two MVPs but they’re not actually the two most valuable players, and it’s harder to suggest we can’t compare their stats because the leagues don’t play each other. The DH now existing in both also means there aren’t a lot of differences (before you could argue pitchers had it harder in the AL for example).

I don’t disagree that it would probably still go Judge-Ohtani in voting if Ohtani were still in the AL, but I think that’s a product of narratives that we frequently see with awards. Witt’s seasons has been largely ignored unfortunately despite him having the best SS season in 20 years (since at least A-Rods early 2000s years and arguably since Ripken’s MVP in ‘91).

Witt is certainly being unfairly overlooked, but when you have the narrative of 50/50 on one side, and on the other you have a hitting machine who is up 22 home runs and 30 RBI, leading the league in both while being 1st in OPS, 1st in WAR, and 3rd in batting average in all of baseball, it’s a bad time to have a great season. Add in the market effects of NY (specifically the Yankees) and LA (specifically the Dodgers), and Witt would have to put up an all-time season, not just a best in 20 years at his position. Hell of a player though.

And in my opinion, if Witt was the one who put up 50/50, I’d hand over the MVP to him over Judge and Ohtani. The difference between the situations being that Witt is an every day SS with an outside chance at a Gold Glove on top of the unique and great season of 50/50.

 

[Three On Zero]

Did McDavid win the Hart last year? Did he win the Conn Smythe? Did he lead his team to the title? Mahomes is in a higher tier than McDavid.

McDavid is more of a pity vote here since it’s a hockey forum, in reality he’s nowhere near the dominant athlete the other two are.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Doubly so because it’s a cherry picked “history.” 41/73 happened just last year, and no one ever had even 40/60 before. Why wasn’t Acuna picked instead of Ohtani? That was an equally historic season of the same uniqueness (HR and SB). Judge became like the 4th player ever with 50+ HR seasons 3 or more times, meaning he’s had statistical dominance over a longer period of time, but Ohtani was picked instead.

People are enamored by Ohtani pitching and hitting, and conflating his big year batting and running with “imagine he is an ace pitcher, too!” The issue is: we’ve seen him do both over multiple seasons, and the batting and baserunning results weren’t close to this. There is a reason for that and a reason why doing both is incredibly rare. But it seems too many are remembering Ohtani as a top pitcher, and now seeing him as one of the top DH’s and think he’s both at the same time. Babe Ruth eventually gave up pitching because his bat was far more valuable as an everyday player, and his career stats went from “he’s the best in the league,” to “he’s going to go down as the best of all time.” It’s not coincidental, but it’s being deeply discounted too many times in this thread.

Again, despite the “historic” season, Ohtani is still likely going to finish 6th in WAR this year for non-pitchers. It’s a hell of a lot harder to make a case for him than the other two, who are almost unanimously considered the best of their sports’ generations by way of clear statistical separation from their peers. Ohtani isn’t in that “unanimous best of sport” class - he’s just unique and great simultaneously.

This is a good post I’m coming back to as I would have voted for Ohtani and now I’m less sure. I think if he was also pitching, with a lot of success, while still maintaining being a top 5 offensive player…then we’re talking.

You made a good point about Mahomes on his individual production. And factor in his team’s dominance and it adds a little spice to it. I’m a josh Allen fanboy and he has a ton of video game stats over the last three years that rival Mahomes, but he’s not quite on the same level.

And McDavis is a bit underrated in the discussion, his statistical separation Id wager is the greatest of the three

 

[Video Nasty]

I don’t mind them separating it still either, I just mean it’s more of a situation where you’re going to sometimes have better years in one league than the other where there’s two MVPs but they’re not actually the two most valuable players, and it’s harder to suggest we can’t compare their stats because the leagues don’t play each other. The DH now existing in both also means there aren’t a lot of differences (before you could argue pitchers had it harder in the AL for example).

I don’t disagree that it would probably still go Judge-Ohtani in voting if Ohtani were still in the AL, but I think that’s a product of narratives that we frequently see with awards. Witt’s seasons has been largely ignored unfortunately despite him having the best SS season in 20 years (since at least A-Rods early 2000s years and arguably since Ripken’s MVP in ‘91).

The more I dig into Witt, the more I see the case that’s he’s getting a bit overlooked (though he’ll certainly finish as the AL runner up).

He has a chance at breaking A-Rod’s most extra base hits in a season by a SS (91 in 1996). He currently has 88 with 6 games remaining.

 

[Regal]

This is a good post I’m coming back to as I would have voted for Ohtani and now I’m less sure. I think if he was also pitching, with a lot of success, while still maintaining being a top 5 offensive player…then we’re talking.

You made a good point about Mahomes on his individual production. And factor in his team’s dominance and it adds a little spice to it. I’m a josh Allen fanboy and he has a ton of video game stats over the last three years that rival Mahomes, but he’s not quite on the same level.

And McDavis is a bit underrated in the discussion, his statistical separation Id wager is the greatest of the three

I think that’s the thing. His first MVP he had a strong hitting year and a very good pitching year but he wasn’t so good at either that the combo wasn’t better than your typical strong MVP year. Then the following year he wasn’t quite as good at the plate but was a top pitcher (4th in cy young), and again he was MVP quality in most years (but Judge was just that good) but not above a typical strong MVP season. Then last year he took his hitting to best in the league and was also a great pitcher and was on pace for one of the best years of all time but was cut short by injury. And now this year he’s again hitting at the same level and will win the MVP with a strong year but won’t be as valuable as the years he was pitching.

He has a good argument for being the best player in baseball based on his consistency over the past 4 years and has been near the top of the league enough that I think you can make a case for him here over McDavid and Mahomes. But I think some people are treating it like it isn’t close based on the possibility of him having an offensive season like this year and a pitching season like he did in ‘22. Combining those years would give him a WAR of 14.3, which would be unheard of in the modern era and absolutely worthy of the “not close” comments. But he should probably do it in a season first before he gets that type of praise.

 

[Finster8]

Ohtani by a landslide. Hit, Pitch and run all at elite levels. Nobody in modern sport has dominated like that. He was a freak at pitching and hitting and now stealing bases for a big guy is crazy

 

[Crow]

No they aren’t.

The hits quarterbacks take would end a goalie’s career.

Quarterback is statically one of the least injured positions in the NFL after kicker and about equal to guard. Kicker is the least. I don’t think you know what you are talking about quite frankly.

 

[Crow]

I think the gap between Mahomes and the 2nd best QB is way smaller than the gap between McDavid and the 2nd best hockey player. And I say that as a lifelong Chiefs fan since 2018.

I don't know how you compare Ohtani to those two. Boiling his talent down to WAR just takes away the raw fact that nobody in 100 years can do what he does.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Awfully simplistic to just point out WAR and say conversation over.

 

[Crow]

Since 2018 (Mahomes’s first season, not counting one game in 2017):

1st in total passing yards, 9% higher than 2nd (Goff)
1st in passing yards per game, 5% more than 2nd (Brady)
1st in passing TD, 21% higher than 2nd (Wilson)
1st in QBR
1st in TD%
3rd in INT%

I’m sure there are others, but by nearly all measures of QB success he is in 1st with more than a slight separation in total yards, yards per game, and passing TDs. The only exception is INT%, where his 1.7% is beaten by Tom
Brady (1.6%), and Aaron Rodgers (1.0) during that span. 2nd place is also different for each category, showing how hard it is to be 1st place in more than one of these, yet Mahomes is in 1st in 5 of 6.

First point kind of defeats your whole argument here. Goff? He’s second and only by 9%. Domination I guess? Over a mediocre QB, maybe slightly above average?

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Quarterback is statically one of the least injured positions in the NFL after kicker and about equal to guard. Kicker is the least. I don’t think you know what you are talking about quite frankly.

20 quarterbacks combined to miss 102 games in 2023 because of how safe that position is.