Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[MCR74]

Did McDavid win the Hart last year? Did he win the Conn Smythe? Did he lead his team to the title? Mahomes is in a higher tier than McDavid.

Very.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Did McDavid win the Hart last year? Did he win the Conn Smythe? Did he lead his team to the title? Mahomes is in a higher tier than McDavid.

You can judge guys based on their awards or based on their actual ability. I guess that's where we differ.

And to answer the bolded - he did, in fact.

 

[Dfence033]

You can judge guys based on their awards or based on their actual ability. I guess that's where we differ.

And to answer the bolded - he did, in fact.

Furthering the point that no single player can win a championship by themselves on a roster of 18 other players on their own team. I’ve always found the idea ridiculous that the only measure of a player for many is how many championship teams they played on.

Football has 22 “starters” per team.
Hockey has 19 per team.
Baseball has 9.
Basketball has 5.
Tennis and golf have 1.

Which sports are most likely to have the highest variance between individual player dominance and team championships? An individually dominant player can make it more likely their team wins a championship, but hardly guarantees it in a league of 30+ teams.

 

[Fatass]

Furthering the point that no single player can win a championship by themselves on a roster of 18 other players on their own team. I’ve always found the idea ridiculous that the only measure of a player for many is how many championship teams they played on.

Football has 22 “starters” per team.
Hockey has 19 per team.
Baseball has 9.
Basketball has 5.
Tennis and golf have 1.

Which sports are most likely to have the highest variance between individual player dominance and team championships? An individually dominant player can make it more likely their team wins a championship, but hardly guarantees it in a league of 30+ teams.

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

Yeah you might want to run that one by oilers fans I think you’d be surprised lol…..

 

[Dfence033]

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

This is exactly why I contest this idea. Messier had Hall-of-Famers Gretzky, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr, and Lowe off the top of my head on those Oilers teams. That’s an HoF player at every position on the same team.

As a Rangers fan, I also believe he is vastly over-attributed to them winning in 94. He had Gartner, Zubov, and Leetch as HoF in addition to his EDM buddies in Anderson, Tikkanen, Beukeboom, McTavish, Lowe, and I think I’m missing at least one more.

The goal is to win championships, but would anyone dare suggest Gretzky was not the best ever if he never won a Cup?

 

[John Mandalorian]

And yet the greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. Those that don’t, get ranked a tier lower. And talking to the greats that never won, they’d agree. The greatest are defined by championships.
Messier and six Cups or McDavid and lots of points? Oilers were (are) charmed to have both, but one was a winner. The other, not yet. So Messier is in that higher tier of the greats.

Yeah. This would be a more valid conversation if you substitute Sidney Crosby for CM. Sid scored a lot and contributed to winning also. It’s also kind of interesting that the 4 Cs who have reputations for 2 way play over the past 15 years have 7 rings combined. But by all means, let’s overlook Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, and Barkov and focus on scoring as much as possible and ignore possible costs that come with that.

If you’re counting rings as a result of impacting winning and not merely stats, the gap between Mahomes and his contemporaries at the moment is pretty significant.

 

[DFF]

has any done what McDavid has done before? Yes, Gretzky, Lemieux and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Mahomes has done before? Yes, Brady, Montana, Elway and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Ohtani has done before? Nobody, none zilch….

 

[DFF]

And if you are taking position important then just close the thread and give it to whoever the best QB …..there isn’t a more important position in Sports….no comparison

 

[Fatass]

This is exactly why I contest this idea. Messier had Hall-of-Famers Gretzky, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr, and Lowe off the top of my head on those Oilers teams. That’s an HoF player at every position on the same team.

As a Rangers fan, I also believe he is vastly over-attributed to them winning in 94. He had Gartner, Zubov, and Leetch as HoF in addition to his EDM buddies in Anderson, Tikkanen, Beukeboom, McTavish, Lowe, and I think I’m missing at least one more.

The goal is to win championships, but would anyone dare suggest Gretzky was not the best ever if he never won a Cup?

Gretzky was key to winning four, so it’s a moot point.
The greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. That’s what separates them from the very good.

 

[Dfence033]

has any done what McDavid has done before? Yes, Gretzky, Lemieux and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Mahomes has done before? Yes, Brady, Montana, Elway and arguably a few more
Has anybody done what Ohtani has done before? Nobody, none zilch….

Okay, then Ronald Acuna Jr. is also the most dominant player in baseball. No MLB player ever hit 40HRs and 60SB in the same season. He had 41/73.

Kris Letang is the most dominant defenseman in the NHL. No D player has ever scored 5 points in a period before last season.

Tyreek Hill is the most dominant WR is NFL history, as no one else has ever had 5 150 yard receiving games with at least 1 TD.

This is why the idea is ridiculous to me. No one (or very few) have made the above three claims. Why is Ohtani somehow different?

Gretzky was key to winning four, so it’s a moot point.
The greatest of the greats lead their clubs to championships. That’s what separates them from the very good.

Okay, so Gretzky being the key to winning 4 means what for Messier being on those teams, but being credited as a better player than McDavid in this thread for… winning Cups?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Winning Super Bowls is insignificant? Are you being serious with this?

Where in the world did I say that was insignificant? What an incredible straw man argument/comment

Since 2018 (Mahomes’s first season, not counting one game in 2017):

1st in total passing yards, 9% higher than 2nd (Goff)
1st in passing yards per game, 5% more than 2nd (Brady)
1st in passing TD, 21% higher than 2nd (Wilson)
1st in QBR
1st in TD%
3rd in INT%

I’m sure there are others, but by nearly all measures of QB success he is in 1st with more than a slight separation in total yards, yards per game, and passing TDs. The only exception is INT%, where his 1.7% is beaten by Tom
Brady (1.6%), and Aaron Rodgers (1.0) during that span. 2nd place is also different for each category, showing how hard it is to be 1st place in more than one of these, yet Mahomes is in 1st in 5 of 6.

Actual good reply, thanks!