Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Really? You going to use wins as your metric for pitching excellence??

Let's see... I think this is a pretty good example of how useful of a stat it can be;
-Trachsel went 15-8 in 2006 despite a 4.97 ERA and 88 ERA+
- Meanwhile deGrom went 10-9, barely finishing over .500 despite a 1.70 ERA and 218 ERA+ in his dominant 2018 season.

Everyone and their uncle knows that a pitchers win-loss record is just about the most meaningless stat you can use when it comes to grading a pitcher's performance.

No, I'm using 15 starts and 14 decisions as a metric of being a starting pitcher. Ruth also led the league in a bunch of hitting categories that year. Therefore, he both hit extremely well and pitched in a single season. The fact that you want to insist that Ohtani is doing it "better" doesn't mean that Ruth didn't also do it.

 

[LionsHeart]

Bonds openly cheated.


View attachment 726535
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He also never pitched


Ohtani is the winner

Come on, that’s just chicken, rice, and broccoli.

Anyway, the answer is Ohtani. This is “Greatest of All Time” stuff we’re witnessing.

 

[TheStatican]

No, I'm using 15 starts and 14 decisions as a metric of being a starting pitcher. Ruth also led the league in a bunch of hitting categories that year. Therefore, he both hit extremely well and pitched in a single season. The fact that you want to insist that Ohtani is doing it "better" doesn't mean that Ruth didn't also do it.

No where did I say Ruth didn't also hit and pitch in a season. What I said is that no one has both hit and pitched at such a high level in the same season. Based on their pitching stats that statement is a fact - "a thing that is known or proved to be true" or are you actually suggesting that the stats are somehow wrong and that Ruth was as good or perhaps an even better pitcher in 1919 than Ohtani has been this year???

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

No where did I say Ruth didn't also hit and pitch in a season. What I said is that no one has both hit and pitched at such a high level in the same season. Based on their pitching stats that statement is a fact - "a thing that is known or proved to be true" or are you actually suggesting that the stats are somehow wrong and that Ruth was as good or perhaps an even better pitcher in 1919 than Ohtani has been this year???

And I disagree. Ruth both pitched and hit at a high level in the same seasons, albeit in a drastically different time. 1916, he led the league in ERA, while still being decent at the plate. 1917 he was top 10 in ERA, and hit .325 (top 10 in the league), but only got 123 AB because there was no DH position for him to just hit. 1918, he was again top 10 in ERA and led the league in home runs, SLG and OPS. 1919, after having a decent start to the season pitching on a bad Red Sox team, his manager decided he should hit more than pitch and he led the league in pretty much every batting category for the next decade. Seems like he was doing both in the same seasons to me...

 

[Lou Sassole]

Except hitting and pitching is not comparable to playing center and goalie in Hockey. Pitcher's been hitting forever, you never see any centers playing goalie during the third period.

Although I agree that the answer is Ohtani.

Maybe a better comparison is if you could throw McDavid on defense and he would win the Norris. I remember Fedorov played defense in a pinch, but not at a Norris level. The answer has to be Ohtani.

 

[Voight]

Ohtani fairly easily

Only athletes who could compare were Jordan, Brady, maybe Tiger at their peak

100% Tiger. No maybe.

What he accomplished in his prime took every other golfer their entire careers.

 

[TheBeard]

100% Tiger. No maybe.

What he accomplished in his prime took every other golfer their entire careers.

Gretzky at his peak was something else as well.

 

[BKarchitect]

This is Ohtani for sure. We are talking sheer dominance in a way we haven’t seen.

This does not mean Ohtani will go down as a top 3 major league player in terms of career. McDavid on his current path almost assuredly will. Mahomes on his current path almost assuredly will. They are absolute phenoms who are already, frankly, legends…and most of their careers still yet lie ahead.

Ohtani’s dominance is just unique. I kinda like the analogy of peak Tiger and peak Ohtani…it just hits different.

 

[Zero Requiem]

As someone who doesn't know anything about baseball, why does Ohtani only have one MVP at age 29 if he is so amazing?

 

[McFlash97]

As someone who doesn't know anything about baseball, why does Ohtani only have one MVP at age 29 if he is so amazing?

These guys that are so ignorant at McDavids dominance on a sheet of ice would be worshipping that sheet if McDavid was killing it for thier own team. It's just hate. Ohtani is unique. Probably the most unique player ever in baseball. He isn't as dominant as McDavid though. The 22 minutes McDavid is out there. He scares the living shxx out of every single player opposing him.

 

[Cas]

As someone who doesn't know anything about baseball, why does Ohtani only have one MVP at age 29 if he is so amazing?

Ohtani has only been OHTANI for two-plus years, and in that time he's won one MVP and finished a legitimate second behind one of the most astonishing offensive performances of recent years (Aaron Judge last year).

Before 2021, Ohtani had three years where he was respectively good, decent, and awful. Before that, he was in Japan.

...

Now, how dominant is he actually being, in terms of value, rather than the impressive breadth of his skills?

In 2021, Ohtani had 8.9 WAR, leading the AL by 1.7 WAR (about 19%). The NL leader was 1.2 WAR behind Ohtani (13%). At this point, I no longer consider the AL and NL to have any meaningful differences and consider there to be one league - there's no longer any justifiable reason to consider them to be separate (in many ways, there hasn't been for decades).

In 2022, Ohtani did not lead the league, finishing 1.0 WAR behind Judge (who had a 9% lead).

In 2023, Ohtani has 6.2 WAR so far, for a team that has played 90 games (55.5% of the season). Prorating that out over the rest of the year would put Ohtani at 11.2 WAR. The runner up, Ronald Acuña, is at 5.0 WAR in 87 games - prorated to 9.3 WAR. That would give Ohtani a lead of 1.9 WAR (17%).

Over three years, Ohtani would have 29.7 WAR. The next five (as far as I can tell) are Judge (21.3), Soto (19.5), Goldschmidt (18.9), Ramirez (18.8), and Betts (18.1). That's a pretty huge lead. Of course, this is cherry-picked to favor Ohtani - a four-year look would be different, as Ohtani was replacement-level in 2020 and good but nothing special in 2019.

This also relies on trusting WAR to the decimal - I don't think WAR can truly do that, but it's likely off in either direction somewhat randomly, so I'm not going to worry about it.

I do not believe there is any value in Ohtani being both a pitcher and a hitter - in theory it gives you an extra roster spot, but because the extra spot is going to be filled by a replacement-level player, I don't think it really adds more value than a tiny handful of runs, at best. Ohtani's value is simply the sum of his value as a pitcher and a hitter - nothing more.

In summary, I think Ohtani has been, over his most favorable stretch, about 25% more valuable than any other individual player. I don't know how that compares to McDavid, and I have no clue how that compares to Mahomes (I have zero interest in football). But that, numerically, is how dominant I believe Ohtani has been. It would be interesting to compare that to past players' best stretches.

 

[Philadelphia Ducks]

I don't watch baseball so I won't include Ohtain, but McDavid > Mahomes for sure. McDavid is so significantly better than the 2nd in the world right now that I find it hard to compare. Mahomes is best QB but the gap isn't as large.

 

[Machinehead]

As someone who doesn't know anything about baseball, why does Ohtani only have one MVP at age 29 if he is so amazing?

Baseball is in a golden age of offensive stars.

Ohtani, Mike Trout, Aaron Judge, and Mookie Betts are four legitimate generational talents all in prime years at the same time.

Betts is often overlooked and would be the face of baseball in a less stacked era.

Mike Trout is going to cruise past 100 WAR and the other three would if they stayed healthier and/or didn't play many years in Japan. That's like putting up 1500+ points.

Imagine prime Crosby, prime McDavid, and two Ovechkins.

 

[TheStatican]

And I disagree. Ruth both pitched and hit at a high level in the same seasons, albeit in a drastically different time. 1916, he led the league in ERA, while still being decent at the plate. 1917 he was top 10 in ERA, and hit .325 (top 10 in the league)

I'm talking about what actually happened, your talking about hypothetical's.

What he "could have" done with more at bats in that season is an assumption. Or would you also assume that Pavel Bure would have broken Gretzky's goal record in 98-99? I mean he was on pace for it and he had almost as much playing time (11gm of 82 = 13%) as Ruth did in '17 (126ab's vs 580 range for the top hitters = 21%). Point is they're both small sample sizes which are meaningless to extrapolate full season projections from.

Saying Ruth was a two-way superstar based on his 1917 stats is like saying Walter Johnson was one in 1925, or Wes Ferrel in 1935 or Don Newcombe in 1955;

​	Season​	Innings​	AB​	HR​	OPS​	OPS+​	ERA+​
Babe Ruth​	1917​	323.2​	123​	2​	0.857​	162​	128​
Walter Johnson​	1925​	229.0​	97​	2​	1.033	163​	138​
Wes Ferrel​	1931​	276.1​	116​	9​	0.994​	152​	123​
Don Newcombe​	1955​	233.2​	117​	7​	1.028	164​	128​

Man somebody had better get on the phone with the MLB head office! These players are definitely not getting the recognition they clearly deserve for being two-way superstars.

These are the facts;
- Did Ruth qualify for the batting title in 1917 or any season prior? No.
- Does Ohtani qualify for the batting title in 2023? Yes.
Ohtani is a full time hitter in 2023. Ruth was not a full time hitter before 1918. It's as simple as that.

Also even if you project Ruth's 1917 stats over a full season Ty Cobb still destroys him in every single metric. With Speaker and Hornsby being ahead of Ruth as well. Ohtani meanwhile is first in Slugging, first in OPS, first in Home runs and first in OPS+

Was Ruth the best hitter in the game in 1917? No.
Is Ohtani the best hitter in the game in 2023? Yes.

but only got 123 AB because there was no DH position for him to just hit.

Yet somehow he was a full time hitter(as in he qualified for the batting title) in 1918 and 1919 without the DH rule while being starter, albeit a part-time starter. And what happened when Ruth became a full time hitter? The more Ruth hit the worse he pitched;

Season​	AB​	ERA+​
1916​	136​	158​
1917​	123​	128​
1918​	317​	122​
1919​	432​	102​

If your under the impression that I'm suggesting Ohtani > Ruth, that is not what i am saying. None of the above takes away from Ruth's accomplishments or changes the fact that he's one of the greatest players ever, if not the greatest. It simply goes to show how incredibly difficult it is to both pitch and hit full time in the same season and be successful at it. Ohtani is doing something truely unique but for all his skills he may yet hit wall himself, we'll find that out in due course.

 

[Coffee]

Baseball is in a golden age of offensive stars.

Ohtani, Mike Trout, Aaron Judge, and Mookie Betts are four legitimate generational talents all in prime years at the same time.

Betts is often overlooked and would be the face of baseball in a less stacked era.

Mike Trout is going to cruise past 100 WAR and the other three would if they stayed healthier and/or didn't play many years in Japan. That's like putting up 1500+ points.

Imagine prime Crosby, prime McDavid, and two Ovechkins.

Do the Orioles have a chance

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Baseball is in a golden age of offensive stars.

Ohtani, Mike Trout, Aaron Judge, and Mookie Betts are four legitimate generational talents all in prime years at the same time.

Betts is often overlooked and would be the face of baseball in a less stacked era.

Mike Trout is going to cruise past 100 WAR and the other three would if they stayed healthier and/or didn't play many years in Japan. That's like putting up 1500+ points.

Imagine prime Crosby, prime McDavid, and two Ovechkins.

On a non-related topic, this shows how baseball even more so than hockey, is "team reliant" and how little impact one (or even two) players has on team winning. The fact the Angels have both Ohtani and Trout and still routinely suck is evidence of this. At least in hockey, the Crosby/Malkin duo were able to carry the Pens to 15+ straight playoffs and the McDavid/Draisaitl duo are able to get the Oilers into the playoffs.

 

[mahomes95]

The best athletes in America play in the NBA and NFL, the concept of 'dominating a sport is so overrated'. Ice Hockey is a much easier sport to dominate. The best white athletes in america literally grow up trying to become the next quarterback or pitcher, they dont grow up trying to be ice hockey players.

Mahomes in a vacuum is far superior to Mcdavid. NFL quarterbacks are among the best athletes in the world, NHL players are plumbers.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Baseball is in a golden age of offensive stars.

Ohtani, Mike Trout, Aaron Judge, and Mookie Betts are four legitimate generational talents all in prime years at the same time.

Betts is often overlooked and would be the face of baseball in a less stacked era.

Mike Trout is going to cruise past 100 WAR and the other three would if they stayed healthier and/or didn't play many years in Japan. That's like putting up 1500+ points.

Imagine prime Crosby, prime McDavid, and two Ovechkins.

There isn't anyone currently comparable to Crosby and McDavid. Guys like Judge and Betts are really good players, but there have always been really good players in baseball. They are not historically great, however. Trout will probably end up the best player all-time, but even then he's only going to barely crack the top 10 if he finishes his career strongly.

 

[HFpapi]

The answer for me is Ohtani for sure. The sheer absurdity of getting one of the best hitters in the league & one of the best pitchers all wrapped up in one makes him one of the most valuable athletes ever.

That said, people are definitely over blowing how good he is at each one individually. He is not McDavid + Hasek in one. If you took only Ohtani the hitter, McDavid is easily more dominant.

Highest scoring season ever aside from 99,66,19. 5x scoring champ and 3x MVP at age 26. (Ohtani is working on his second MVP at age 29).

Ohtani the pitcher isn't even the best in the league much less absolute consensus best in the league half a dozen times in a row like Hasek was with 6 straight Vezinas + 2 MVP.

Ohtani is doing something very, very special right now but let's be accurate.

 

[mahomes95]

Mcdavid isn't the best goal scorer, he's never been a selke candidate, he doesn't block shots, or hit. He is simply the best at passing. This was his first elite goal scoring season.

 

[Siludin]

Who is more dominant between Mahomes and McDavid is for sure Mahomes. McDavid is further ahead of his peers than anyone else in sports currently but the importance of the QB position far outweighs any position in hockey(you could argue goalie i suppose). In football one elite qb can make you a contender in hockey one player has far less of an impact. I also have no idea about baseball so I will not comment on the other fella.

Yeah Mahomes is more like Hasek or something

 

[nucksflailtogether]

The best athletes in America play in the NBA and NFL, the concept of 'dominating a sport is so overrated'. Ice Hockey is a much easier sport to dominate. The best white athletes in america literally grow up trying to become the next quarterback or pitcher, they dont grow up trying to be ice hockey players.

Mahomes in a vacuum is far superior to Mcdavid. NFL quarterbacks are among the best athletes in the world, NHL players are plumbers.

Oh my god what? F**king football fans man. Those guys play 16 GAMES A SEASON. And in those games they play a lot less than a hockey player does in his 82 games. The non stop commercial breaks, timeouts. And quarterbacks often just shovel the ball to the running back.

I’m not trying to take away from them but their athletic prowess is far less impressive.

I won’t argue the talent pool is far shallower for hockey. It’s a rich white mans sport. But just from a purely athletic standpoint let’s get real.

 

[mahomes95]

Oh my god what? F**king football fans man. Those guys play 16 GAMES A SEASON. And in those games they play a lot less than a hockey player does in his 82 games. The non stop commercial breaks, timeouts. And quarterbacks often just shovel the ball to the running back.

I’m not trying to take away from them but their athletic prowess is far less impressive.

I won’t argue the talent pool is far shallower for hockey. It’s a rich white mans sport. But just from a purely athletic standpoint let’s get real.

They are also getting hit by beasts that weigh 300 pounds and can run faster than us.

 

[Machinehead]

There isn't anyone currently comparable to Crosby and McDavid. Guys like Judge and Betts are really good players, but there have always been really good players in baseball. They are not historically great, however. Trout will probably end up the best player all-time, but even then he's only going to barely crack the top 10 if he finishes his career strongly.

Yeah, Aaron Judge, who averages 8.1 WAR per 162 games, is just a pretty good player.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The best athletes in America play in the NBA and NFL, the concept of 'dominating a sport is so overrated'. Ice Hockey is a much easier sport to dominate. The best white athletes in america literally grow up trying to become the next quarterback or pitcher, they dont grow up trying to be ice hockey players.

Mahomes in a vacuum is far superior to Mcdavid. NFL quarterbacks are among the best athletes in the world, NHL players are plumbers.

No one calls it ice hockey lol, unless new to the game.
The best athletes aren’t in grass football, that’s for sure, with 5 second plays