Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[ponder719]

Mahomes is the best player at the most important position in his sport, but the gap between him and #2-5 is smaller than the other two. McDavid is the best player of his generation, by a solid margin. Ohtani is a once in a century unicorn, in a sport where dominance doesn't move the needle as thoroughly for your team, stuck on a team that (apart from Mike Trout) otherwise isn't worth watching.

Mahomes is the most successful, McDavid the most dominant relative to his game, Ohtani the most impressive (not the best hitter, not the best pitcher, but it is absurd to be as good at both as he is). Hard not to split hairs like that, when dealing with players of such incredible talent across such different positions and sports.

 

[Mike C]

Is pointing out that Ruth both pitched decently well in 14 games and led the league in a bunch of batting metrics in a single season (1919) not actual baseball history? Or is pointing out that Ruth never had the opportunity to just hit on the days he wasn't pitching in Boston because the DH position wasn't introduced until 1973 not actual baseball history?

What Ohtani is doing is impressive, but unless you ignore all context, it's hard to agree with the claim that he's the ONLY person to ever do this when Ruth did something very similar in a much different era.

Ruth to me is the best baseball player of all time. Hit 714 in dead ball era AND was 94-46 as a pitcher. 107 complete games out of 147 started. Pitched over 300 innings twice. 3-0 in world series games with 0.87 ERA

Otani pitches on average around 6 innings/game


Let's also remember the travel is much easier and convenient vs in Ruth's day and what the Bambino did is even more remarkable considering he likely was hungover most days

 

[ponder719]

Ruth to me is the best baseball player of all time. Hit 714 in dead ball era AND was 94-46 as a pitcher. 107 complete games out of 147 started. Pitched over 300 innings twice. 3-0 in world series games with 0.87 ERA

Otani pitches on average around 6 innings/game


Let's also remember the travel is much easier and convenient vs in Ruth's day and what the Bambino did is even more remarkable considering he likely was hungover most days

Travel in Ruth's day was less convenient, but he never had to go further west than St. Louis, or further south than Washington, DC, and he wasn't facing the greatest talent of his generation; he was facing the top white talent only.

There are, certainly, reasons to acclaim what Ruth did as being incomparable to what Ohtani is doing now, but they work in both directions.

 

[ACC1224]

Mahomes easily, he's the only one that wins.

Ohtani would be the best athlete.

McDavid is the easiest to feel sorry for.

 

[TLEH]

McDavid and Mahomes are more similar than Ohtani is to either of them. Its Ohtani by a decent margin. Won't see a guy like that for a long long time.

 

[Cas]

Ruth to me is the best baseball player of all time. Hit 714 in dead ball era AND was 94-46 as a pitcher. 107 complete games out of 147 started. Pitched over 300 innings twice. 3-0 in world series games with 0.87 ERA

Otani pitches on average around 6 innings/game


Let's also remember the travel is much easier and convenient vs in Ruth's day and what the Bambino did is even more remarkable considering he likely was hungover most days

Almost all of Ruth's home runs were hit after the end of the deadball era (which ended in 1920).

 

[Rorschach]

Is McDavid even that dominant in hockey? Arguably there have been other players even more valuable than him, such as Nate MacKinnon.

 

[Mike C]

Travel in Ruth's day was less convenient, but he never had to go further west than St. Louis, or further south than Washington, DC, and he wasn't facing the greatest talent of his generation; he was facing the top white talent only.

There are, certainly, reasons to acclaim what Ruth did as being incomparable to what Ohtani is doing now, but they work in both directions.

Fair!

 

[Mike C]

Almost all of Ruth's home runs were hit after the end of the deadball era (which ended in 1920).

Good catch! I forgot it ended that quickly. Still 714 is quite a feat

 

[Hockeyholic]

Mahomes is the best player at the most important position in his sport, but the gap between him and #2-5 is smaller than the other two. McDavid is the best player of his generation, by a solid margin. Ohtani is a once in a century unicorn, in a sport where dominance doesn't move the needle as thoroughly for your team, stuck on a team that (apart from Mike Trout) otherwise isn't worth watching.

Mahomes is the most successful, McDavid the most dominant relative to his game, Ohtani the most impressive (not the best hitter, not the best pitcher, but it is absurd to be as good at both as he is). Hard not to split hairs like that, when dealing with players of such incredible talent across such different positions and sports.

This might be the best description

 

[Lt Dan]

No. Great player but not good enough offensively to reach the best of the best. Bonds is by far the most dominant player ever.

Bonds openly cheated.

He also never pitched


Ohtani is the winner

 

[TheStatican]

Or is pointing out that Ruth never had the opportunity to just hit on the days he wasn't pitching in Boston because the DH position wasn't introduced until 1973 not actual baseball history?

What Ohtani is doing is impressive, but unless you ignore all context, it's hard to agree with the claim that he's the ONLY person to ever do this when Ruth did something very similar in a much different era.

You are conflating the hypothetical with actual fact; "a thing that is known or proved to be true"

Yes the rules were different in Ruth's and he could very well have done what Ohtani is doing if the DH was around. But you don't know that for a fact because it didn't happen. That's not his fault but that doesn't make the statement that no one has done what Ohtani is doing today any less true.

Furthermore you can't just project a small sample of players stats out over the course of an entire season and say that's exactly what they would have ended up if given the chance. Mario Lemieux was projecting to break Gretzky's point record in 1993 but that doesn't mean that he was 100% guaranteed to do it. Maybe Ruth could have been the best hitter in the league while still being one of the best pitchers in the game in 1916 and 1917 but again we don't know that for a fact. We don't know what the impact of him hitting ever single day would have on his pitching and hitting numbers over the course of an entire season.

Is pointing out that Ruth both pitched decently well in 14 games and led the league in a bunch of batting metrics in a single season (1919) not actual baseball history?

He was an average pitcher, his ERA+ of 102 and whip over 1.545 attests to that. He was nowhere near the top 10 in any pitching stat where as Ohtani is.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Almost all of Ruth's home runs were hit after the end of the deadball era (which ended in 1920).

There were seasons where he hit more homeruns than every single AL team (except, obviously, the one he was playing on). Shame they only used the juiced balls when Ruth was batting.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Nobody in Asia gives a shit about baseball. Cricket dwarfs baseball and always will. Don't want to sound rude or anything

Asia = India and Pakistan? News to me.

 

[Based Anime Fan]

Asia = India and Pakistan? News to me.

Theoretically yes, but no one counts the sub-continent or the Middle East into Asian social demographics, they tend to separate into:

Asia
Indian Sub-Continent
Middle East
ANZAC (Australia, NZ, Deep Pacific)

So in this standard accepted model, Baseball is the single most popular sport in Asia.

I believe Rugby and football dominate ANZAC.

If you look at combining these sub-regions, typically the Middle East gets rolled into Europe and Africa, thus being known as EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa), which has football as the most popular sport by far. ANZAC gets rolled into what we are calling Asia, and remains baseball as baseball is also popular in Australia and NZ, just not as much as rugby or footy.

As for the Indian Sub-Continent, I believe the most popular sport is tied with cricket and rugby.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You are conflating the hypothetical with actual fact; "a thing that is known or proved to be true"

Yes the rules were different in Ruth's and he could very well have done what Ohtani is doing if the DH was around. But you don't know that for a fact because it didn't happen. That's not his fault but that doesn't make the statement that no one has done what Ohtani is doing today any less true.

Furthermore you can't just project a small sample of players stats out over the course of an entire season and say that's exactly what they would have ended up if given the chance. Mario Lemieux was projecting to break Gretzky's point record in 1993 but that doesn't mean that he was 100% guaranteed to do it. Maybe Ruth could have been the best hitter in the league while still being one of the best pitchers in the game in 1916 and 1917 but again we don't know that for a fact. We don't know what the impact of him hitting ever single day would have on his pitching and hitting numbers over the course of an entire season.


He was an average pitcher, his ERA+ of 102 and whip over 1.545 attests to that. He was nowhere near the top 10 in any pitching stat where as Ohtani is.

I know for a fact that he went 9-5 as a pitcher and led the league in a bunch of hitting metrics in 1919, similar to what Ohtani did. So, while you're correct that it's not exactly the same (likely due to the massive changes to the game), it's close enough that the claim that Ohtani is the ONLY person to do it still rings hollow to me.

 

[Video Nasty]

Will Shohei go down as one of the top 5 baseball players ever? Probably not. McDavid could easily end up top 5 in hockey though by the end of his career.

Yes, Ohtani’s all-time case is more murky than McDavid’s, but it should be noted that there is a larger pool of options and a longer history for baseball.

The average top 10 list for all-time greats in baseball commonly have Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, and Walter Johnson soaking up four spots. Their careers ended between 1927-1939. Their careers didn’t start nearly 85 years ago. They ended.

Williams, Mantle, and Musial often lay claim to another three spots and their careers all ended between 1960-1968. That’s three more spots to give us lists where frequently, 7 of the 10 players with consideration for best ever, all haven’t played a game in 55 years.

Compare that to the NHL who has a near unanimous consensus on its top four players whose final NHL games all occurred (or some careers played in entirety) between 1979-2005 and then a group of 8-10 players with a great case for #5 and I’d say it’s magnitudes more difficult for any ball player to crack into their sports top 10 compared to hockey’s top 5.

 

[MessierII]

Probably Ohtani not because he’s more dominant but because his skill set is so different than anything we’ve ever seen.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Ohtani is the most unicorn player baseball has ever seen maybe ever but he's not really the best at any one thing. There are better pitchers and there are better hitters.

McDavid is undoubtedly the best player in the world at his sport.

 

[Vegeta]

Ohtani is the only one of these 3 accomplishing things we have never seen before.

It is him.

 

[Ezekial]

It's Ohtani because no one in his sport does what he does and then he happens to be incredible at both. He's not the absolute best at both, but no one else in the game can regularly expect come in and pitch 7 innings of shut out baseball while hitting 2 home runs.

 

[Machinehead]

Ohtani is a unicorn and is doing what hasn't been done in 100 years, but not because no one else was able to do it before, but because, historically no has been allowed to.

in baseball in North America, when a kid reaches a certain age they either move in to being a position player, or a pitcher usually around age 11 or so and it is usually whatever they are slightly better at. For someone who played ball, i had to make a choice as i was pretty good at hitting and pitching, but i was told i couldn't do both. Kids just don't get the option to continue to do both into their teenage years, it's just not done that way, much like a goalie in hockey. Even Babe Ruth had to give up pitching once he became a Yankee

Someone somewhere in Japan allowed Ohtani to continue to do both and because he is a talented, athletic guy, he's been able to excel at both.

If players had been allowed to do both in North America, from a young age, I think we would've seen somebody come alone like him a long time ago. And I think now, because of him you will see an influx in 10-15 years of players who can do both at a high level.

I see what you're saying, but I don't see much of a shift coming with how they baby young pitchers.

They're barely allowed to pitch, let alone hit.

 

[Machinehead]

Ohtani is the most unicorn player baseball has ever seen maybe ever but he's not really the best at any one thing. There are better pitchers and there are better hitters.

McDavid is undoubtedly the best player in the world at his sport.

At this point, are there?

He leads the league in slugging, OPS, OPS+, and homers.

If Aaron Judge isn't healthy, Ohtani is the best offensive player in baseball without much of a fight.

 

[TheStatican]

I know for a fact that he went 9-5 as a pitcher and led the league in a bunch of hitting metrics in 1919, similar to what Ohtani did. So, while you're correct that it's not exactly the same (likely due to the massive changes to the game), it's close enough that the claim that Ohtani is the ONLY person to do it still rings hollow to me.

Really? You going to use wins as your metric for pitching excellence??

Let's see... I think this is a pretty good example of how useful of a stat it can be;
-Trachsel went 15-8 in 2006 despite a 4.97 ERA and 88 ERA+
- Meanwhile deGrom went 10-9, barely finishing over .500 despite a 1.70 ERA and 218 ERA+ in his dominant 2018 season.

Everyone and their uncle knows that a pitchers win-loss record is just about the most meaningless stat you can use when it comes to grading a pitcher's performance.

 

[EichHart]

Ohtani is doing something I didn’t think was physical possible, and he’s been doing it at the highest level for yrs. He might be the greatest athlete in any sport, ever.