How can he be the greatest of all time when 3 contemporary players scored better than his best multiple times each I wonder.. I mean don’t get me wrong he is arguably top 5 and definitely top 10 but I don’t get the criteria that ranks him #1.
Where Does Auston Matthews Rank For You As A Goal Scorer All Time?
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How can he be the greatest of all time when 3 contemporary players scored better than his best multiple times each I wonder.. I mean don’t get me wrong he is arguably top 5 and definitely top 10 but I don’t get the criteria that ranks him #1.
Jabba11
Hockey Lobby
Mike Bossy's Resume:
- 9 consecutive seasons of 50+ goals over a short 10 years career (That's 90% of career, he scored more than 50 goals)
- 3 consecutive seasons of 17 goals in playoffs (He holds 3 of the highest scoring records in a single playoffs in the top 10 (Only Sakic, Kurri and Leach scored more than him in a single playoffs, but only managed once, Bossy did 17 goals 3 times)
-Career goal ratio: 76.20%
1. Gretzky: 8 consecutive seasons but played an over 20 seasons career, only scored 17 goals in a single playoff run once, never 3 consecutive seasons. Career goal ratio: 60.12%
2. Mario Lemieux: never more than 3 consecutive seasons with 50+ goals; back to back 16 goals in playoffs, but never 3 in row
3. Marcel Dionne: 5 consecutive seasons with 50+ goals; nonexistent in playoffs
4. Brett Hull: 5 consecutive seasons with 50+ goals; never scored more than 13 goals in single playoffs.
5. Alex Ovechkin: no more than 3 consecutive seasons with 50+ goals; 15 goals in playoffs, once only. But did get 9 seasons over 50 throughout his career.
6. Phil Esposito: 5 consecutive seasons with 50+ goals; never closed to 17 goals in a single playoffs.
7. Auston Matthews: Career goal ratio: 64.22%. Only scored 50+ goals once, likely this year for his second time, but Bossy got 9 consecutive seasons.
Jaromir Jagr, Teemu Selanne never got closed to having 9 consecutive seasons over 50+ goals.
Who are the 3 contemporary players you are referring to? I have a hard time finding a better, more natural, more pure goalscorer than Mike Bossy. He had his career shortened due to chronic knee and back injuries. He was unfortunate to not have been able to have a longer career and smashed all records. In my opinion, with some of the above mentioned facts, the greatest goalscorer of all time. But, it's just my opinion and I respect everybody's elses preferences/opinions!
ole ole
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I totally agree with you. Bossy is #1 in my books. For active players Matthews has taken over.
filinski77
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You’re entitled to your own opinion, but using consecutive 50 goal seasons is a very weak argument for Bossy being #1.
If he was #1 he should have been able to lead the league in goals more than twice (especially since he only played in his athletic prime aged years).
TheStatican
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I agree that Bossy is often criminally underrated on the boards and I personally rank him among the top 5 goal scorers of all time (Lemieux, Hull, Ovechkin, Gretzky, Bossy), however there are some flaws in your methodology. Benchmark figures are possibly the most overrated metric one can use in player comparisons, people tend to attribute an unreasonable amount of significance to them. The unflattering truth is that most people are horrible at math and have a difficult time comprehending the significance of various numbers in relation to each other. Instead they prefer to reference easily understandable round numbers like 50 or, in the case of point totals, 100. A player achieving the feat of scoring 50 goals in a season, even once, is often regarded in an entirely different light than someone who, for example scored only 48 goals in a season at their best. When in reality the difference between the two players is a statistically insignificant 4%.
Lets compare the stats of two mystery players over a 5-year span between 2018 and 2023;
Season | Player A goals | Player B goals |
18-19 | 50 | 37 |
19-20 | 43 | 47 |
20-21 | 31 | 41 |
21-22 | 55 | 60 |
22-23 | 52 | 40 |
Total | 231 | 225 |
Player A had three 50-goal seasons, while player B had just the one 50+ goal season. If we attribute an exaggerated importance to the achievement of benchmark figures it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that player A was the better of the two goal scores. However in truth, very few people would actually agree that Player A was the better of the two, even considering the additional fact that Player A scored more goals overall in the above time span. Player A in this instance is of course, Leon Draisaitl, while player B is Auston Matthews - the universally recognized best goal scorer of this generation.
So why is that? Well, those surface numbers clearly lack crucial context. One being that Draisaitl never led the league in goals despite his three-50 goal seasons, while Matthews did it twice. So how could Draisaitl possibly be considered the better of the two scores when he was not even the best scorer in the league in a single season? The only thing someone could point to is the greater number of total goals in the above mention span, but this too is missing some vital context - the total number of games played. When taking this into consideration it becomes entirely evident that Matthews is the superior scorer, scoring at a rate of 0.668 goals per game when compared to Draisaitl's mark of 0.626 per game.
What the above proves is that looking at benchmark figures alone is a poor metric for determining who is the superior goal scorer between two(or more) players.
But what about Bossy's per-game scoring rates? Unlike the Matthews vs. Draisaitl comparison above, Bossy does indeed stand out in this regard, boasting the highest per-game goal-scoring rates of all time. This figure absolutely deserves substantial consideration in any discussion on who the best goal scorer of all time is, certainly far more than reaching a benchmark number of goals in 'x' number of times.
However as mentioned numerous times on the boards before, his final per-game tally benefited from his early retirement. Had he played well into his 30 his career per-game scoring would have inevitably declined as they do for all players. So if we're being fair, the best way to compare others to Bossy is to use their career totals by the same point of their careers, which gives the following;
From Age 21 to Age 30;
| Regular | Season | | Playoffs | | | RS+PO | Combined | |
| G | Gm | GPG | G | Gm | GPG | G | Gm | GPG |
Bossy | 573 | 752 | 0.76 | 85 | 129 | 0.66 | 658 | 881 | 0.75 |
| | | | | | | | | |
Lemieux | 472 | 517 | 0.91 | 67 | 84 | 0.80 | 539 | 601 | 0.90 |
Gretzky | 612 | 766 | 0.80 | 84 | 138 | 0.61 | 696 | 904 | 0.77 |
Brett Hull | 442 | 588 | 0.75 | 58 | 79 | 0.73 | 500 | 667 | 0.75 |
Matthews | 262 | 380 | 0.69 | 17 | 37 | 0.46 | 279 | 417 | 0.67 |
Bobby Hull | 441 | 679 | 0.65 | 43 | 76 | 0.57 | 484 | 755 | 0.64 |
Bure | 384 | 598 | 0.64 | 35 | 64 | 0.55 | 419 | 662 | 0.63 |
Richard | 319 | 517 | 0.62 | 47 | 68 | 0.69 | 366 | 585 | 0.63 |
Ovechkin | 473 | 758 | 0.62 | 41 | 84 | 0.49 | 514 | 842 | 0.61 |
Howe | 383 | 688 | 0.56 | 27 | 63 | 0.43 | 410 | 751 | 0.55 |
Or conversely - Players totals to game 752;
| G | Gm | GPG |
Lemieux* | 620 | 752 | 0.82 |
Gretzky | 620 | 752 | 0.82 |
Bossy | 573 | 752 | 0.76 |
Brett Hull | 535 | 752 | 0.71 |
Ovechkin | 469 | 752 | 0.62 |
Bure | 437 | 702** | 0.62 |
Richard | 437 | 752 | 0.58 |
Bobby Hull | 421 | 752 | 0.56 |
**Bure only played 702 games.
Overall Bossy still compares well to most but he no longer holds the record; both Lemieux and Gretzky had higher goals per game scoring rates in the regular season(and RS+playoffs) however you break it - either to the age of 30 or to game 752. And ofc all that's without considering Bossy had the added benefit of playing in the highest scoring era which needs to be considered when comparing him to say Richard, Bobby Hull & Ovechkin.
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Staniowski
Registered User
I think you have to see Bossy play in order to understand him properly, and I think a lot of people now haven't seen him play.
In the 1980s, virtually everybody thought Bossy was a better goal-scorer than Gretzky, but of course now almost everybody who didn't see them play thinks Gretzky was the better scorer just because he scored more.
Even early in Bossy's career, many people thought he was the best goal-scorer in NHL history. He looked like such a professional, natural, pure goal-scorer, and he was good at everything that makes a good goal-scorer. Unbelievably focused. He always scored basically the same amount of goals - his four years of junior he scored the same, and then his entire NHL he scored about the same consistently.
Gretzky, on the other hand, was lacking in several areas that make a great goal-scorer, and that's why his goal-scoring plummeted when he was in his mid-'20s.
Matthews is more like Bossy. They are both better goal-scorers than Gretzky.
This seems pretty disingenuous. Gretzky and Bossy had identical amounts of 50 goal seasons. Gretzky's goal scoring declined after 9 seasons (late 20s, not mid 20s). By decline, I mean dropping below 50. Coincidentally. After 9 seasons, bossy had his only non 50 goal season and then subsequently retired. Are we to believe that bossy would have continued scoring at his previous rate into his 30s?
Bossy's best season was 68 goals. Gretzky had 4 straight seasons with more than 68.
Gretzky outscored Bossy over the same time period. Gretzky scored a peak of 92 (24 more than Bossy's best) in one season. He also scored 50 in 39. These are things that Bossy didn't come close to doing....but Bossy is the better goal scorer?
Now, people may have said Bossy is a better PURE goal scorer, because that was the heart of his game. But Gretzky wasn't a pure goal scorer, he was too cerebral and playmaker oriented. But he was definitely a better goal scorer than Bossy, as awesome as Bossy was (top 3-4 all time imo).
Gretzky, Lemieux and slightly later on Brett Hull. Bossy had a career high of 69 goals. Lemieux achieved this twice in 70 and 60 games, had another season of 70 goals and a career high of 85 (in 76 games). Gretzky had four 70+ goal seasons, and has the two highest totals in a season with 92 and 87 in 74 games… It would be like today if McDavid scores 80 and 85 goals to Matthews 60, and then scored over 60 4 times, then there was another player who also scored about 80… and that’s not even getting to Brett Hull who scored 70+ 3 times with a career high of 86 a few seasons after Bossy’s career ended.
It’s his playoffs and remarkable consistency that have him possibly ahead of Brett Hull, but that top 4 are really tough to argue against.
Even compared to Auston Matthews one is hands down the best of their era and the other is 4th… He is not even a better goal scorer than Matthews or Bure.
I mean I could see a scenario where he would’ve been better against modern NHL goalies, but as it stands they played in the same era and Gretzky outscored him massively while piling up as many assists as he had points some seasons. Imagine there was a pure goal scorer who scored like 40 something goals as a career high in the 80s while scoring a little over half his points that was somehow considered a better goal scorer than Bossy?
Martin Skoula
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I want to say the disconnect is between “better goal scorer” and “better at scoring a lot of goals”. If you have a transcendent playmaker where goalies and defenses have to decide between cheating over to a pass that’s almost certainly getting scored on if they don’t cheat or a 50/50 chance to save it if he shoots even if you’re not perfectly set up, that guy is going to score a lot of goals even though a Bossy type might be more likely to score with the goalie set up and playing the shot not the pass.
If I’m starting a fantasy league that overwhelmingly rewards goals obviously you take Gretzky, but I don’t think I take Gretzky in a 1 shot to decide the fate of humanity scenario.
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Long story short Bossy was a better shooter but not a better goal scorer.
Martin Skoula
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The way their careers turned out yes but that’s with Gretzky being the best of all time AND at the right time in the right place with the right teammates. If he ends up in a worse situation where his wingers aren’t a threat to score regardless of his passing he doesn’t hit 92, I don’t think Bossy has as big a drop off as a one man show on a bad team.
winnipegger
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Goose
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He’s currently the best goal scorer of his generation, the torch has been passed from Ovi.
He’s on pace to be one of the greatest of all time, which in my books means Top 15 range.
Assuming a relatively healthy/normal career for someone of his ilk, his floor is probably Iginla-calibre and his absolute ceiling is probably Top 5 with Top 2 likely out of the question.
If I was forced to pick a number as a best guess, I’d say he ends up in the 650-700 range and is somewhere within a few spots either side of Top 10 all time.
He’s on pace to be one of the greatest of all time, which in my books means Top 15 range.
Assuming a relatively healthy/normal career for someone of his ilk, his floor is probably Iginla-calibre and his absolute ceiling is probably Top 5 with Top 2 likely out of the question.
If I was forced to pick a number as a best guess, I’d say he ends up in the 650-700 range and is somewhere within a few spots either side of Top 10 all time.
I'm pretty sure he has Brett Hull listed, which is the problem. It's the better Hull he left out. I think that poster believes hockey only started in ~1970.
650-700 is on the lower end of expectations for Matthews at this point. He is ahead of Ovechkin age for age (and will probably be ahead by as much as ~50 goals by end of next season). And Ovechkin might be headed towards close to ~900 career goals all-time. I think Matthews is very likely to end up in the ~750-800 range.
Even if he ages much worst than Ovechkin, I think falling short of 700 goals is quite unlikely at this point.
Barring any career ending/altering injury for Matthews - I'd say there's a ~75%+ chance he tops 700 goals.
Here's how easy it'll be for him to get to 700 goals:
- Let's assume he has 23 more goals this season, so he ends season with an event 360 career goals.
- If he plays 10 more years (meaning he retires at age 36, which is quite early, and more likely he plays longer) and averages 34 goals per year those 10 years - he's already abvoe 700 career goals.
From ages 27 to 36, Brett Hull averaged 42 goals per season, and that includes the DPE years
From ages 27 to 36, Ovechkin averaged 44 goals per seaosn, and that includes a lockout and some low scoring years.
I think expecting Matthews to average ~40 goals per season those 10 years seems like a safe bet. It's ~10% less than Ovechkin, but in what likely continues to be higher scoring seasons. Which would put him at approx ~760 goals by end of age 36.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
While I admit to being biased as an Islanders fan and I don't think Bossy is #1 his career often does get overlooked when you have people omitting him from the top 5-10 goal scorers. His 2 Rockets is accurate on your part, but he'd have 5 if Gretzky never existed (and nobody else would have lead the league in goals those years either) in 9 seasons.
Bossy's career was cut short from injuries so we don't know what would have happened long-term but he'd almost certainly score 700+ career goals and have a good chance at setting the goals record today.
The biggest knocks to Bossy's career are his career overlapping with Gretzky, being cut short by injuries, and playing in a higher scoring and honestly if it was so easy to score 50+ goals in his era, why did nobody else score 50 as consistently as he did?
Again I agree he's not #1 but he's also not out of the top 10-but statements are equally as ridiculous.
filinski77
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Totally agree with you. It's impossible for him to be a better goalscorer than Gretzky due to the fact that Gretzky was simply just a better goalscorer during the exact same time they overlapped. When you also consider how many have Ovi/Lemieux/Hull etc above Gretzky, that pushes Bossy outside of the top-4.
In my books Bossy is probably #6 or so. High peak (although nowhere near the highest), and just unfortunately bad longevity etc.
Rants Mulliniks
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Luckily I saw all of their careers and on eye test, Lemieux always struck me as the best. Eye test is nothing more than that.....completely unreliable but I can say if you asked me to pick one guy, do or die, to score, I'd go Lemieux.
Bossy's career high is 69 goals....Gretzky scored 71+ goals 4 years in a row. If you want to use 50 goals as some bar and show that bossy did it 9 years in a row and Gretzky only 8 years, fine, but Gretzky scored more goals in those 8 years than Bossy did in 9 years. There is no question Bossy is an all time great goal scorer, but there is also no question he's outside of top 3.
Staniowski
Registered User
Lemieux is definitely the best goal-scorer ever (I don't agree with the people who say Bossy was the best ever).
Virtually everybody thought Bossy was a better goal scorer than Gretzky? Certainly not the way I remember it. Perhaps a few that grabbed onto Bossy from the late 70s and didn't want to admit the younger Gretzky was better, but the only thing I'd suggest is some people looked at Bossy as the goal scorer and Gretzky as the playmaker, but that didn't mean people though Bossy was a better goal scorer.
Probably more important, if you think Gretzky's goal scoring plummeted in his mid-20s due to lacking in several areas that make a great goal scorer, I think you need to go back and refresh your memory on the sequence of certain events....which happened later than mid-20s by the way)
Not really much of a question to me either. He’s the only player to score more than a goal per game in the playoffs twice.
People who say Bossy is the greatest goal scorer of all time sure do have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to explain it. Meanwhile reasonable people just point to the guy who scored more goals at the same time as Bossy. It's like my fellow Leafs fans trying to show how Matthews is better than McDavid.
I have him 6th behind only Gretzky, Bossy, Ovechkin, Lemieux and Hull. Good chance he moves up this list. He is currently the best goal scorer in the league and I have him as the third best overall player in the league behind McDavid and Makar.
