When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
31,316
16,699
Yzerman went in for Kane and Cat too early and should have taken more time to acquire more high end players through the draft. Cleaning up Holland's mess was about a 3 year job at minimum before the rest of the build could take place. Now they're just too good to draft high but not good enough to make the playoffs.

I'd be worried as a Wings fan
Five players picked in the first round of the last three drafts have yet to play more than 26 NHL games combined.
Edvinsson - As solid as can be expected for his first 20ish games
Cossa - killing it in the AHL
Kasper - Coming on strong latter half of his AHL season at 19yo and by many accounts the best skater in GR when Edvinsson was up.
Danielson - Larkin clone with the exact same scouting report and questions about offensive upside
ASP - Is he a Barrie? Is he a Bouchard? Is he a Fox? Who knows, but he's scoring at unprecedented levels for a teenager in the SHL.

The time of picking high is over. These guys need to get integrated.

Kane, and everyone else over 28, is a literal placeholder.
Cat is younger than Larkin and fell in his lap.
 

StreetHawk

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
29,277
11,359
Five players picked in the first round of the last three drafts have yet to play more than 26 NHL games combined.
Edvinsson - As solid as can be expected for his first 20ish games
Cossa - killing it in the AHL
Kasper - Coming on strong latter half of his AHL season at 19yo and by many accounts the best skater in GR when Edvinsson was up.
Danielson - Larkin clone with the exact same scouting report and questions about offensive upside
ASP - Is he a Barrie? Is he a Bouchard? Is he a Fox? Who knows, but he's scoring at unprecedented levels for a teenager in the SHL.

The time of picking high is over. These guys need to get integrated.

Kane, and everyone else over 28, is a literal placeholder.
Cat is younger than Larkin and fell in his lap.
NHL isn't the NFL when it comes to the draft. Not seeing most kids for around 2 years, even the first rounders unless they are top 5 kids, which with Raymond you saw at age 19, Seider at 20.

It will be the guys Yzerman and the Wings took in round 2/3 in 2019 and 2020 (4 extra 2nds and 1 extra third to their 4 awarded picks in those rounds for those years that they need to get something from to help next season).

Most teams are only going to be terrible bad for around 3 seasons. If you strike out, or get no lottery luck, not much you can do.
Zadina didn't pan out and honestly from 2019, outside of Hughes, not much better from the 4 guys between Hughes to Seider. Would probably love a C over Raymond, but it wasn't to be.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
31,600
20,714
Five players picked in the first round of the last three drafts have yet to play more than 26 NHL games combined.
A sixth overall playing more than 16 NHL games in their D+3 isn't an unreasonable ask. Matthew Tkachuk was a sixth overall and had played 224 NHL games in the three seasons post-draft and had a 34 goal season for a playoff team in his D+3... Of course that's a tippy top result. Pavel Zacha played 140 games, for instance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Voight

19 for president

Registered User
Apr 28, 2002
3,064
1,328
"Aljo" has been under contract for 4 years, was loaned and slid in his age 19 season, was loaned back to Sweden for the first year that counted and played in Grand Rapids for two. He is due for a second contract now. As of 2024-25 he will no longer be waiver-exempt so he will either play all season in the NHL or he will have to clear waivers to go back down. In the time he's been with the Red Wings how many cups of coffee has he received to give an honest assessment of how he looks in the NHL? 0. That is a quite unusual thing to do with a 2nd round prospect an organization believes in during a "rebuild". So he will have to enter the NHL cold at a time the Wings are tying to be competitive... Those last couple years before a player loses waiver-exempt status are important evaluation years and why they typically get callups, unless they can't because they either stink or the team is too competitive to spend time developing prospects in the NHL.
This is actually the more typical way the Wings have handled prospects historically. When they have fast tracked them like they did for Ras and Zadina we've usually seen worse results. The fast tracking has only really worked with Ray and Larkin. Even Seider was a 2 year post draft guy.

Aljo is probably up this year if he wasn't behind a true blue chip guy in Ed. Who probably makes it earlier in the season if he hadn't had off season surgery. Aljo isn't an elite prospect by any means, and I think that is pretty typical for non elite guys on the Wings.

Now don't get me wrong I 100% understand what you mean about the eval time. The Wings fell into that trap badly during the XO, Marchenko, Jensen, Backman years. All of those guys basically ended up without a taste of the NHL before waivers and it was a mess.

The Wings can afford to let other D prospects slow roll, because Seider is already a #1 and Ed is at least a 2nd pairing anchor. Having a majority young defense at the NHL level rarely if ever works.

Now if the Wings lost Aljo to waivers without him ever playing in the NHL I will be mad and I will call out Yzerman for that. I think we'll see him to make deals to free up that 6/7 spot for him this offseason, and I think they are confident he'll be able to step right in. He plays a really steady game that should translate fairly well as a bottom pair guy. He also needed time to try and develop physically, he still isn't huge by any means but it took a long time to develop something like an NHL frame, which seems like it will be his biggest hold back. I could also see him dealt this offseason for an upgrade elsewhere.

I don't always agree with him but Yzerman fully pushes for holding off on prospects until they can step into the role the Wings plan for them to be in at the NHL level. He held off on Ed until he was confident that he could be in a top 4 role. Seider was the same way. Ray lucked out in that a top 6 spot opened and he started the season hot to stay up.

If we are going by pure eval I think both Ed and Danielson could have made the team out of camp, but Yzerman sent them down because he had top 4 and top 6 expectations. Ed seemingly proved right as he seamlessly stepped into the top 4 when he was called up permanently. We'll see how Danielson looks coming into camp next season.
 

norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
31,316
16,699
A sixth overall playing more than 16 NHL games in their D+3 isn't an unreasonable ask. Matthew Tkachuk was a sixth overall and had played 224 NHL games in the three seasons post-draft and had a 34 goal season for a playoff team in his D+3... Of course that's a tippy top result. Pavel Zacha played 140 games, for instance.
Most of them could easily have played. Yzerman didn't want them to.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
31,600
20,714
If we are going by pure eval I think both Ed and Danielson could have made the team out of camp, but Yzerman sent them down because he had top 4 and top 6 expectations. Ed seemingly proved right as he seamlessly stepped into the top 4 when he was called up permanently. We'll see how Danielson looks coming into camp next season.
Sliding Danielson at this draft spot/could use more time playing 1st line junior role to develop more offense, made sense to me. I'm not saying every kid should be thrown in the fire right away. More so when you look deeper at players from '19 and '20 drafts, the lack of callup time is a bit baffling, as you can leave players primarily in the AHL but at least give them a taste so they can adjust to NHL speed/go back and learn from it/use it in the offseason.

When you're a Cup contender every year, sure, you're not wasting man games played on developmental players. And obviously some players are just too bad to callup regardless. When you're not even making the Playoffs but have a bunch of veterans on the roster to block them anwyays? I'm not a huge fan.

Most of them could easily have played. Yzerman didn't want them to.
Yeah, that's the thing I'm unsure about. And obviously speculative, but who knows how these guys are feeling toiling in the Minors for multiple years while they see comparable guys around the League get extended NHL action.
 

StreetHawk

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
29,277
11,359
Sliding Danielson at this draft spot/could use more time playing 1st line junior role to develop more offense, made sense to me. I'm not saying every kid should be thrown in the fire right away. More so when you look deeper at players from '19 and '20 drafts, the lack of callup time is a bit baffling, as you can leave players primarily in the AHL but at least give them a taste so they can adjust to NHL speed/go back and learn from it/use it in the offseason.

When you're a Cup contender every year, sure, you're not wasting man games played on developmental players. And obviously some players are just too bad to callup regardless. When you're not even making the Playoffs but have a bunch of veterans on the roster to block them anwyays? I'm not a huge fan.
Daneilson is a late birthday and is AHL eligible for 24/25. He's played in the W for 4 seasons now. Would expect Detroit to have him in the A this upcoming season vs back in the W again.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
31,600
20,714
Daneilson is a late birthday and is AHL eligible for 24/25. He's played in the W for 4 seasons now. Would expect Detroit to have him in the A this upcoming season vs back in the W again.
Yeah, I mean sliding Danielson for 23-24. Between NHL/AHL next year, would normally say it just depends. Yzerplan seems to skew keeping players down. Exception being Raymond who played all 82 games in 2021-22. Seider slid twice (once playing in the AHL, once in the SHL) and then was in NHL full time his first official ELC year.
 

dekelikekocur

Registered User
Mar 9, 2012
444
504
Yeah, I mean sliding Danielson for 23-24. Between NHL/AHL next year, would normally say it just depends. Yzerplan seems to skew keeping players down. Exception being Raymond who played all 82 games in 2021-22. Seider slid twice (once playing in the AHL, once in the SHL) and then was in NHL full time his first official ELC year.
Seider playing in the SHL was because of the uncertainty of NHL season start with Covid. Yzerman decided it was better he get a start there then risk when/if the NHL would start here. He was first loaned to Mannheim(Announced Aug 4th) and when the DEL couldn't get a start date set, he was instead loaned to Rogle (announced Oct 8th). From my understanding, Rogle wouldn't accept him if it was just for a partial season so they sent him there for the remainder of the SHL season. NHL didn't announce till I think sometime in Dec or Jan the 2020-2021 schedule/start dates.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

Riccis per 60 record holder
Feb 29, 2020
18,273
19,966
View attachment 855773

To me, 18th is low for year 5. I keep reading the drafting has been amazing and there are a lot of great players coming in. But I also keep reading the Wing's have no luck in the draft with lottery picks and such (true).

I look at the cap and I see a lot of contracts I personally wouldn't want for next season:

Debrincat at 8 mill
Copp at 5 mill
Compher at 5 mill
Rasmusson goes to 3 mill next season
Chariot at 5
Holl at 3
Petry at 2.4
Wallman at 3.4
Husso at 5
Abdelkader and Yam at 1.5 next season

I am also embarrassed to see that 2 Czechs took up almost 4 mill in cap space in Simek and Vrana.. but they're off the books now.

Obviously, some of those guys I'm wrong on and maybe those contracts are fair value. Just looks like a lot of 'meh' to me.

Rasmussen, DBC, Walman and Compher are fine. The rest are overpaid bums for sure.

Detroit needs a legit 2nd pair RD, a goalie upgrade, and a top 6 winger. They also need to lose defensively weak players like Fabbri at forward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Czechboy

Midnight Judges

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 10, 2010
14,451
11,394
JMO but the team showed some flashes of life this season - much moreso than in any of the previous 7 seasons. The record shows improvement as well with the team posting a points percentage .60 points higher than any other season in the past 8 years.

A long view is prudent for stuff like this.
 

BFLO

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 3, 2015
4,745
4,481
This is deja vu for the Sabres 2022-23 post mortem.

91 points! We took a big step forward! We've got lots prospects still on their way up! We're bound to improve even more next season!

Then 2023-24 happened and they took a 7 point step backwards.

Biggest difference between 2022-23 Buffalo and 2023-24 Detroit is that Detroit had significantly worse underlying numbers and is likely due for worse regression than Buffalo had.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Czechboy

sxvnert

Registered User
Nov 23, 2015
12,816
7,999
Wings need to build out a second line around Kane.

Debrincat Larkin Raymond
--------- Kasper Kane
Rasmussen Compher Copp
Perron Fischer --------

Trade/buyout the rest
 

JediOrderPizza

Registered User
Apr 15, 2012
6,721
8,819
Tampa, Fl
This is deja vu for the Sabres 2022-23 post mortem.

91 points! We took a big step forward! We've got lots prospects still on their way up! We're bound to improve even more next season!

Then 2023-24 happened and they took a 7 point step backwards.

Biggest difference between 2022-23 Buffalo and 2023-24 Detroit is that Detroit had significantly worse underlying numbers and is likely due for worse regression than Buffalo had.
I actually see most of us realizing we are probably losing Kane and other UFAs who helped get to 91 points for ELC kiddos. Thus making it harder to hit that number again with everything that goes with having a younger team. Add in other teams getting better and Devils not being terrible again the total to make the playoffs increases. Unless Yzerman has a insane summer, but as of now I'm expecting a regression.

I'm ok with it, time to start getting out the placeholders.
 

StreetHawk

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
29,277
11,359
I actually see most of us realizing we are probably losing Kane and other UFAs who helped get to 91 points for ELC kiddos. Thus making it harder to hit that number again with everything that goes with having a younger team. Add in other teams getting better and Devils not being terrible again the total to make the playoffs increases. Unless Yzerman has a insane summer, but as of now I'm expecting a regression.

I'm ok with it, time to start getting out the placeholders.
That's realistic. Who is truly ready to contribute to equal what the vets gave you as a 20-23 year old?
Have to temper expectations.

Around the NHL which bad team is poised to return to the PO? Anaheim? Utah? Columbus? Buffalo? Ottawa? Who is going to have the expectation to make the PO? Buff/Ott most likely. Will heads roll if they fail to achieve that goal? Granato paid the price in Buff and Ott cleaned house with both GM and HC. New regime will get 2 years.
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,293
16,478
No I didn't "blame" Yzerman for Zadina, I just said he rode Zadina out until he had zero value.
so basically your blaming him for not “recognizing” Zadina was a bust and ripping off another GM?

What if every other GM also recognized he wasn’t any good and weren’t offering anything?

I know that thought never once crossed your mind though, he should have just traded him for a 1st, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: izlez

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,293
16,478
A sixth overall playing more than 16 NHL games in their D+3 isn't an unreasonable ask. Matthew Tkachuk was a sixth overall and had played 224 NHL games in the three seasons post-draft and had a 34 goal season for a playoff team in his D+3... Of course that's a tippy top result. Pavel Zacha played 140 games, for instance.
why Comment so much about the Wings when you have no idea what’s going on?

Edvinsson missed time with a major shoulder injury and Yzerman wanted him to get up to speed in the AHL. Yzerman literally came out and said he plans out over rypening all of our prospects, including planning on having Raymond in the AHL in a season where he ended up 4th in Calder voting but only made the team because of injuries in the pre season.

Edvinsson was, by a large margin, our 2nd best D when he did get the opportunity to play.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TKB

GMR

Registered User
Jul 27, 2013
6,808
5,863
Parts Unknown
I actually see most of us realizing we are probably losing Kane and other UFAs who helped get to 91 points for ELC kiddos. Thus making it harder to hit that number again with everything that goes with having a younger team. Add in other teams getting better and Devils not being terrible again the total to make the playoffs increases. Unless Yzerman has a insane summer, but as of now I'm expecting a regression.

I'm ok with it, time to start getting out the placeholders.
That's where I'm at. They should have less cap space after signing Seider/Raymond. More young players and less veterans. The other teams will get better. All the issues you mentioned.

The plus side should be the young guys getting better as the season progresses. Fresher legs in March/April. The older players fell off in 2024. Energy wasn't there many nights.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
31,600
20,714
so basically your blaming him for not “recognizing” Zadina was a bust and ripping off another GM?

What if every other GM also recognized he wasn’t any good and weren’t offering anything?

I know that thought never once crossed your mind though, he should have just traded him for a 1st, right?
Not sure what you’re asking but I suppose you think the situation was handled perfectly?

why Comment so much about the Wings when you have no idea what’s going on?

Edvinsson missed time with a major shoulder injury and Yzerman wanted him to get up to speed in the AHL. Yzerman literally came out and said he plans out over rypening all of our prospects, including planning on having Raymond in the AHL in a season where he ended up 4th in Calder voting but only made the team because of injuries in the pre season.

Edvinsson was, by a large margin, our 2nd best D when he did get the opportunity to play.
It’s the over ripening that I am questioning, I would say my posts have been pretty clear on this point and it’s a consistent one I have made.
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,293
16,478
Not sure what you’re asking but I suppose you think the situation was handled perfectly?


It’s the over ripening that I am questioning, I would say my posts have been pretty clear on this point and it’s a consistent one I have made.
They tried “under ripening” Zadina and Rasmussen to horrible results, so until it happens the same with over ripening, why are you having issues with it?

And you’re Yzerman in 2020, what would you have done with Zadina?
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,293
16,478
Why are you asking me this? Skip the pointless back and forth and say your point if you think the Zadina situation was handled perfectly.
I said by the end of 2020 it was becoming pretty clear Zadina may have had some issues.

The options were either A) trade him for like a 3rd at best in the hopes other GMs hadn’t noticed he kinda sucks

B) hope he figures it out

Considering both have like a 10% chance at best of working out, yes it’s completely reasonable to give your 6th overall pick the chance to figure it out rather than getting another mid round pick when we have had about a billion of those already.

So ridiculous to judge a Yzerman in any kind of way for how Zadina turned out :laugh:
 

Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
9,120
3,694
Imprisonment, TN
goo.gl
Why are you asking me this? Skip the pointless back and forth and say your point if you think the Zadina situation was handled perfectly.

It was handled as good as it possibly could. Yzerman wanted him to find his game, knowing full well his trade value was zilch.

The perfect way to handle it would have been Holland drafting Q.Hughes instead of Zadina. Wings would be in the playoffs right now and this thread would be "When will Yzerman be recognized as a GOD!".

Amazing how that works...
 
  • Like
Reactions: nbwingsfan

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,293
16,478
It was handled as good as it possibly could. Yzerman wanted him to find his game, knowing full well his trade value was zilch.

The perfect way to handle it would have been Holland drafting Q.Hughes instead of Zadina. Wings would be in the playoffs right now and this thread would be "When will Yzerman be recognized as a GOD!".

Amazing how that works...
No no no you’ve got it all wrong!

Yzerman should have been able to see the future and traded him for a 1st + as he should have “recognized” he was a bust while simultaneously tricking other GMS into thinking he wasn’t
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad