When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Henkka]

How is that holding them back? Who was available for them to acquire with that money?

You’re the GM of the Wings in 2019, what exactly would you have done to make them playoff contenders long term by now.
Should be easy right? Let’s hear it.

This was our prospect rank on those days.

Yzerman pulled Seider from the draft by himself, and the rest of the core was:

1. RD - Moritz Seider
2. F - Joe Veleno
3. LD - Jared McIsaac (injury bust)
4. W - Jonatan Berggren
5. D - Albert Johansson
6. F - Robert Mastrosimone (released)
7. W - Givani Smith (traded)
8. RD - Antti Tuomisto
9. W - Evgeny Svechnikov (released)
10. G - Filip Larsson (bad injury)
11. RD - Gustav Lindström (traded)
12. W - Albin Grewe (bust)

 

[nbwingsfan]

This was our prospect rank on those days.

Yzerman pulled Seider from the draft by himself, and the rest of the core was:

1. RD - Moritz Seider
2. F - Joe Veleno
3. LD - Jared McIsaac (injury bust)
4. W - Jonatan Berggren
5. D - Albert Johansson
6. F - Robert Mastrosimone (released)
7. W - Givani Smith (traded)
8. RD - Antti Tuomisto
9. W - Evgeny Svechnikov (released)
10. G - Filip Larsson (bad injury)
11. RD - Gustav Lindström (traded)
12. W - Albin Grewe (bust)

Don’t forget future star Zadina!

 

[Dotter]

The people still saying that it’s Holland’s fault are doing anything and everything to admit that maybe Yzerman can’t actually walk on water after all.

It’s been literally half a decade, it’s not
Holland’s mess anymore.

Holland didn’t draft only two players in five years who are regular NHL players. Holland didn’t build this current team that is horrendous defensively and looked completely lost in the absence of one player. Holland didn’t hire a head coach who is clueless, has no idea how to manage a game, has all the motivational skills of bland oatmeal, and who constantly attempts to lower expectations. Holland didn’t give the current awful contracts to useless players like Copp and Holl.



Do you think Yzerman was hired to get the same results after 5 years that anyone else taking the GM job would have gotten?

I'm sure you won't answer back, because you dodge real questions.

Before we can judge Yzerplan, we must know what a similar rebuild baseline is. What is the average time to rebuild? What are some examples?

I've been researching rebuilding teams, timeframes, assets, cap space, and what UFA signings they had. I am not seeing anyone who drafted in similar spots that took 5 years like you claim. I am even looking at teams that drafted #1 overall with no success like you claim is possible.

After doing this intensive research, I have come to the startling conclusion that you're clueless and unreasonable. Your fantasy ideas might work on PS4 GM mode, but this does not happen in real life. What you are expecting is Humanly impossible.

I doubt advanced AI technology in 100 years from now can even do what you expect can be done. Because it is impossible.

 

[Chuck Testa]

The Shanaplan seems to be worse than the Yzerplan.

 

[Michoulicious]

Biggest mistake is he tried to "turn the corner" too early with middling free agents vets like Holl, Compher, Copp, etc.

Edvindsson should have played most of year in the NHL, and they should have tanked another year.

DeBrincat was undertandable because it was an opportunity that would not come back.

Danielson/Kasper picks did not address the team biggest need (scoring), but I really liked the ASP pick. Mixed bag.

 

[schuelma24]

Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

I might just paste this into every one of these threads from now on: Out of Wallstedt, Askarov, and Cossa, Cossa's 23-24 AHL season has been the best statistical season.

 

[MoneyManny]

Hot take: GM's in the NHL are way overrated/underrated by fans based on complete luck and things they can't control or isn't in their job description.

The draft in hockey is done too early and scouting reports might be worth more than toilet paper if they set the minimum draft age to 20. How do you give credit to a lottery winner?

The salary cap and contract rules in the NHL are way too rigid and they again rely on a lot of luck to create a favorable situation. Can't cut players, buyout penalties are completely outrageous, no trade clauses make absolutely no sense, 8 years contracts are way too long for a league where that number is higher than the average length of a career, and now we have RIDICULOUS cap circumvention using LTIR being trendy.

We don't have a lot of ways to objectively judge the worth of a GM as fans. We don't know what's going on in their offices or how they handle things at all. All we have are snippets from the beat guys and the most randomized results in pro sports (that i know of).

 

[nbwingsfan]

Biggest mistake is he tried to "turn the corner" too early with middling free agents vets like Holl, Compher, Copp, etc.

Edvindsson should have played most of year in the NHL, and they should have tanked another year.

DeBrincat was undertandable because it was an opportunity that would not come back.

Danielson/Kasper picks did not address the team biggest need (scoring), but I really liked the ASP pick. Mixed bag.

How could they have “tanked” without trading Larkin/Seider?

It’s funny how Holl, Compher, Petry, Copp etc all suck (they mostly do) but at the same time also kept us competitive at the same time?

 

[19 for president]

I don't know what people expect from a GM that is rebuilding from basically nothing minus Larkin, Bert, and Hronek.

Larkin is a #1, but in the mid to lower half of those top 30 centers. Bert is a gritty middle 6 guy. Hronek is a legit top 4 dman who can move up when paired with a great player ala Hughes. Mantha has basically bombed since leaving Detroit.

Ras and Veleno are bottom 6 guys until proven otherwise. I like Ras's potential but he probably has a 25% chance of reaching it. Most likely he ends up as a 3rd line winger that is a good pker and pop in the occasional goal.

Then add into the fact that the Wings didn't get a single top 3 pick during their tank. Its horrible luck, but the Stevie has done an excellent job finding talent outside of the top 3. Seider is already a #1 dman. Ray is a top line winger. Ed already looks like another #1 potential guy, but at worst he is a big top 4 minute muncher. Then there are the more recent picks that came even lower and will likely take a bit longer to develop.

Berggren is the only Holland era prospect left with any NHL talent.

Without Franchise level forward talent (Maybe Ray gets there), you have to build from the backend. This takes longer because it often takes dmen and goalies longer to develop.

Yzerman isn't rushing any of our prospect. He knows that if we miss on any of his 1sts its a huge blow to ever getting out of this rebuild. From Yzerman's 2019 draft we already have Seider in the line. Aljo will join him next year. Then we have longer shots in Tuomisto and Soderblom still putting up productive seasons in GR.

That is not to say that he hasn't done a decent amount of stuff that I have disliked. The Copp and Holl signings were and are awful. I am always against signing guys that have career numbers playing with superstars. We don't have a single player like Bread on this team. I would not have resigned Fabbri. I would have called up Ed sooner. I probably would not have drafted Cossa at 15 OA (although this pick is starting to look really good now). I haven't loved all of his non 1st round picks either. I'd rather we went for some more boom/bust guys in the 2nd/3rd rounds that we have.

He isn't building Tampa 2.0 here. We don't have the top picks for that. What he is trying to build is Boston 2.0. Two way centers, monsters on defense, backed by big time goalies.

He knows in the cap era the defense first method is the most sustainable unless you luck into a Pittsburgh situation where you get 2 top 5 centers. Outside of that its hard really hard to build a sustainable winner quickly. (Not counting Vegas, because that was a unique situation)

 

[Voight]

The UFA market was a little deeper at F than I expected: Stamkos, Reinhart, Guentzel, Henrique, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Teravainen, Zucker, Silverberg, Tarasenko, Marchessault, Lindholm, Perron, Olofsson, Lebanc, Wennberg, Arvidsson, Toffoli, Debrusk, Pavelski, Duclair, Domi, Duchene, Kane, (significant guys only - not a complete list)

Outside the top guys, most will probably get overpaid for too long and not the type of guys that the Wings should be building around.

SIlverberg retired FYI

 

[Henkka]

I don't know what people expect from a GM that is rebuilding from basically nothing minus Larkin, Bert, and Hronek.

Larkin is a #1, but in the mid to lower half of those top 30 centers. Bert is a gritty middle 6 guy. Hronek is a legit top 4 dman who can move up when paired with a great player ala Hughes. Mantha has basically bombed since leaving Detroit.

Currently, Bertuzzi trade value was transferred to DeBrincat. That BOS 1st goes to Ottawa, which was most valuable particle on that trade. And Kubalik was got from free agency as free asset.

So despite there was threat to lose players for free, Yzerman did turn those assets to other players.

Same at Hronek trade, most valuable asset was 1st rounder, which turned to be another right-handed defencemen, Axel Sandin Pellikka from 2023 draft.

 

[Voight]

I think 5 years is a reasonable timeline to get your team into the playoffs and into the top 16 of the league.

not sure Pittsburgh will reach rock bottom. They also have some Cups from that window. Do you think they won't make playoffs for the next 5 straight years? What is your answer to your question?

Rangers rebuild started in 2018.. they sent a note to the fans and everything...

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

They won the President's Trophy this year.

here are their 5 years after announcing their rebuild:

View attachment 855833

As an Oil fan.. we spend a decade in shit. I don't recommend it. Detroit can attract better free agents and should be better at this than us. FTR.. I wanted Stevie Y as our GM to get us out of the decade of darkness.

To be fair the Rags lucked into a top 10 winger and top 10 defensemen. That helps a lot when you're rebuilding.

 

[Oddbob]

To be fair the Rags lucked into a top 10 winger and top 10 defensemen. That helps a lot when you're rebuilding.

Yeah, if only every team had 2 top flight players that only want to play for them. That and already having an NHL ready vezina level goalie already in the pipeline. Other than that, the Wings and Rangers are near identical in every way.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Before we can judge Yzerplan, we must know what a similar rebuild baseline is. What is the average time to rebuild? What are some examples?

You are dodging the fact that this isn't Year 5 of rebuild. It's Year 7. They started doing rebuild stuff at the Trade Deadline in 2017, trading Jurco, Smith, Ott and Vanek (who they retained on) for some excess draft capital. They followed it up by trading Riley Sheahan, Petr Mrazek and Tomas Tatar for excess draft capital. In Holland's last year, they traded Nick Jensen and Gustav Nyqusit for excess draft capital. You seem to be conflating rebuild as starting the day Yzerman was hired, which is inaccurate.

Every time I bring this up, you dodge and change the question to "oh so did Ken Holland do a great job rebuilding?" The fact is Yzerman joined a team mid-rebuild, they whiffed on a high 2018 pick and Yzerman was likely too patient to give Zadina every chance to not be a bust and by the time he was cast aside, it was for diddly squat (contract termination), maybe he misevaluated there. The question of "how Yzerman has done" and "how long should a rebuild last" are not the same but Yzerman being there for a while does blend the question a bit. Part of why the rebuild is taking a while is that the Red Wings whiffed on their 2019 and 2020 picks after the first round.

From Yzerman's 2019 draft we already have Seider in the line. Aljo will join him next year. Then we have longer shots in Tuomisto and Soderblom still putting up productive seasons in GR.

"Aljo" has been under contract for 4 years, was loaned and slid in his age 19 season, was loaned back to Sweden for the first year that counted and played in Grand Rapids for two. He is due for a second contract now. As of 2024-25 he will no longer be waiver-exempt so he will either play all season in the NHL or he will have to clear waivers to go back down. In the time he's been with the Red Wings how many cups of coffee has he received to give an honest assessment of how he looks in the NHL? 0. That is a quite unusual thing to do with a 2nd round prospect an organization believes in during a "rebuild". So he will have to enter the NHL cold at a time the Wings are tying to be competitive... Those last couple years before a player loses waiver-exempt status are important evaluation years and why they typically get callups, unless they can't because they either stink or the team is too competitive to spend time developing prospects in the NHL.

 

[Fatass]

Five years and still trying to build his core. Young guys are coming (ASP as their #1D) but it’s still several years away. And while the time clicks by more young guys will need their big money contracts. Imo Yzerman needs to go for it now and get over the hump.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

It's sorta working but Yzerman bought veterans to make the improvements they've made. The nucleus has only three or four proven young pieces and nothing in goal. Only five of the team's top-15 scorers are home grown and only two were Yzerman draftees. The true test will be what becomes of Kasper, Cossa, Edvinsson, Danielsson, and the other notable prospects still stuck in Europe, the AHL, or the NCAA.

Other big issue are the division and conference. Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders won't go away despite being three of the oldest teams in the league, let alone the conference. And Ottawa, Philly, New Jersey, and Buffalo and pretty much one or two players (or a coach) away from being a 90-point team themselves. It's good the Wings are in the mix but the bar has been lowered significantly.

Five seasons and no playoffs in the NBA or NHL is a fireable offense for any GM, and you can make the argument that the team Yzerman built choked away a very attainable wild-card spot when it mattered most. But he'll never be fired in Detroit. If they fail again next season or two, they'll ask him to step aside and say they "mutually parted ways" or he'll leave the GM position and keep an executive role elsewhere in the organization.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It's sorta working but Yzerman bought veterans to make the improvements they've made. The nucleus has only three or four proven young pieces and nothing in goal. Only five of the team's top-15 scorers are home grown and only two were Yzerman draftees. The true test will be what becomes of Kasper, Cossa, Edvinsson, Danielsson, and the other notable prospects still stuck in Europe, the AHL, or the NCAA.

Other big issue are the division and conference. Pittsburgh, Washington, and the Islanders won't go away despite being three of the oldest teams in the league, let alone the conference. And Ottawa, Philly, New Jersey, and Buffalo and pretty much one or two players (or a coach) away from being a 90-point team themselves. It's good the Wings are in the mix but the bar has been lowered significantly.

Five seasons and no playoffs in the NBA or NHL is a fireable offense for any GM, and you can make the argument that the team Yzerman built choked away a very attainable wild-card spot when it mattered most. But he'll never be fired in Detroit. If they fail again next season or two, they'll ask him to step aside and say they "mutually parted ways" or he'll leave the GM position and keep an executive role elsewhere in the organization.

You kind of nailed it on the head that it’ll be the next 2, maybe 3 years that Yzerman will be heavily judged on.

In that time all of Kasper, ASP, Edvinsson, Danielson, Cossa and the plethora of B level prospects should be contributing to the t, and hopefully in meaningful ways.

He deserves criticism for hiring Lalonde and not giving the team some kind of help at the deadline IMO, but it’s impossible to really judge him at this point when the bulk or his moves to date has been drafting, and we don’t know where they’re at yet

 

[Nut Upstrom]

The thread title is amusing considering it is followed by 51 pages of "Yzerplan" criticism.

 

[LarKing]

The thread title is amusing considering it is followed by 51 pages of "Yzerplan" criticism.

As well as the fact that Yzerman has been getting criticized for years. Hell, people still blame him for Zadina half the time somehow.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Biggest mistake is he tried to "turn the corner" too early with middling free agents vets like Holl, Compher, Copp, etc.

Edvindsson should have played most of year in the NHL, and they should have tanked another year.

DeBrincat was undertandable because it was an opportunity that would not come back.

Danielson/Kasper picks did not address the team biggest need (scoring), but I really liked the ASP pick. Mixed bag.

No it did, our center depth is still awful. Those two have potential upside offensively but were mostly taken for their two-way center game. Kasper has that edge this team needs in a big way.

 

[Dotter]

You are dodging the fact that this isn't Year 5 of rebuild. It's Year 7. They started doing rebuild stuff at the Trade Deadline in 2017, trading Jurco, Smith, Ott and Vanek (who they retained on) for some excess draft capital. They followed it up by trading Riley Sheahan, Petr Mrazek and Tomas Tatar for excess draft capital. In Holland's last year, they traded Nick Jensen and Gustav Nyqusit for excess draft capital. You seem to be conflating rebuild as starting the day Yzerman was hired, which is inaccurate.

Every time I bring this up, you dodge and change the question to "oh so did Ken Holland do a great job rebuilding?" The fact is Yzerman joined a team mid-rebuild, they whiffed on a high 2018 pick and Yzerman was likely too patient to give Zadina every chance to not be a bust and by the time he was cast aside, it was for diddly squat (contract termination), maybe he misevaluated there. The question of "how Yzerman has done" and "how long should a rebuild last" are not the same but Yzerman being there for a while does blend the question a bit. Part of why the rebuild is taking a while is that the Red Wings whiffed on their 2019 and 2020 picks after the first round.


"Aljo" has been under contract for 4 years, was loaned and slid in his age 19 season, was loaned back to Sweden for the first year that counted and played in Grand Rapids for two. He is due for a second contract now. As of 2024-25 he will no longer be waiver-exempt so he will either play all season in the NHL or he will have to clear waivers to go back down. In the time he's been with the Red Wings how many cups of coffee has he received to give an honest assessment of how he looks in the NHL? 0. That is a quite unusual thing to do with a 2nd round prospect an organization believes in during a "rebuild". So he will have to enter the NHL cold at a time the Wings are tying to be competitive... Those last couple years before a player loses waiver-exempt status are important evaluation years and why they typically get callups, unless they can't because they either stink or the team is too competitive to spend time developing prospects in the NHL.

I'll admit ken holland was rebuilding 2 years prior to yzman if you admit it was a failed rebuild that had to be scrapped and redone from scratch.

Deal?

 

[nbwingsfan]

You are dodging the fact that this isn't Year 5 of rebuild. It's Year 7. They started doing rebuild stuff at the Trade Deadline in 2017, trading Jurco, Smith, Ott and Vanek (who they retained on) for some excess draft capital. They followed it up by trading Riley Sheahan, Petr Mrazek and Tomas Tatar for excess draft capital. In Holland's last year, they traded Nick Jensen and Gustav Nyqusit for excess draft capital. You seem to be conflating rebuild as starting the day Yzerman was hired, which is inaccurate.

Every time I bring this up, you dodge and change the question to "oh so did Ken Holland do a great job rebuilding?" The fact is Yzerman joined a team mid-rebuild, they whiffed on a high 2018 pick and Yzerman was likely too patient to give Zadina every chance to not be a bust and by the time he was cast aside, it was for diddly squat (contract termination), maybe he misevaluated there. The question of "how Yzerman has done" and "how long should a rebuild last" are not the same but Yzerman being there for a while does blend the question a bit. Part of why the rebuild is taking a while is that the Red Wings whiffed on their 2019 and 2020 picks after the first round.


"Aljo" has been under contract for 4 years, was loaned and slid in his age 19 season, was loaned back to Sweden for the first year that counted and played in Grand Rapids for two. He is due for a second contract now. As of 2024-25 he will no longer be waiver-exempt so he will either play all season in the NHL or he will have to clear waivers to go back down. In the time he's been with the Red Wings how many cups of coffee has he received to give an honest assessment of how he looks in the NHL? 0. That is a quite unusual thing to do with a 2nd round prospect an organization believes in during a "rebuild". So he will have to enter the NHL cold at a time the Wings are tying to be competitive... Those last couple years before a player loses waiver-exempt status are important evaluation years and why they typically get callups, unless they can't because they either stink or the team is too competitive to spend time developing prospects in the NHL.

That’s amazing they traded all those players. Guess what that amounted to on today’s roster? All of one amazing Joe Veleno and Michael Rasmussen

As well as the fact that Yzerman has been getting criticized for years. Hell, people still blame him for Zadina half the time somehow.

It’s really only @WarriorofTime … who for some reason criticizing him for not “recognizing” that he’s a bust and then ripping off some poor GM by trading him earlier.

As if everyone else couldn’t already see he wasn’t planning out and Yzerman really only had two choices:

Test him out and hope he finds his game

Or

Trade him for like a 5th at best in drafts where we already have so many draft picks.

It’s very strange

 

[These Are The Days]

Yzerman went in for Kane and Cat too early and should have taken more time to acquire more high end players through the draft. Cleaning up Holland's mess was about a 3 year job at minimum before the rest of the build could take place. Now they're just too good to draft high but not good enough to make the playoffs.

I'd be worried as a Wings fan

 

[WarriorofTime]

That’s amazing they traded all those players. Guess what that amounted to on today’s roster? All of one amazing Joe Veleno and Michael Rasmussen


It’s really only @WarriorofTime … who for some reason criticizing him for not “recognizing” that he’s a bust and then ripping off some poor GM by trading him earlier.

As if everyone else couldn’t already see he wasn’t planning out and Yzerman really only had two choices:

Test him out and hope he finds his game

Or

Trade him for like a 5th at best in drafts where we already have so many draft picks.

It’s very strange

No I didn't "blame" Yzerman for Zadina, I just said he rode Zadina out until he had zero value.

 

[wingfan]

Biggest mistake is he tried to "turn the corner" too early with middling free agents vets like Holl, Compher, Copp, etc.

Edvindsson should have played most of year in the NHL, and they should have tanked another year.

DeBrincat was undertandable because it was an opportunity that would not come back.

Danielson/Kasper picks did not address the team biggest need (scoring), but I really liked the ASP pick. Mixed bag.

Biggest team need? My brother in christ, this team was winning games 5-4 most nights. Kasper and Danielson are exactly what the team needed in the prospect pool, skilled 2 way centers with top 6 upside..