When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Chainshot]

He's young and asked to go shut down the best players in the league without a true top pairing partner while also being relied on offensively.

It's a lot.

I feel like I’ve stumbled into an old Ristolainen thread. I hope they get them the support he needs before the cement is set.

 

[Czechboy]

You are posting in a thread titled "When does the Yzerpalan Get Criticized?" You mention he only has two high draft picks on the roster.

So...tell us, what 1st round picks should he not have made? Don't tell us he should have tanked longer, because you repeadtedly state the rebuild is taking too long.

Sanderson instead of Raymond? Wallstead instead of Cossa. Nazar instead of Kasper?

While I personally wanted Sanderson, and understand the Wallstead vs Cossa debate, I have no complaints whatsoever. Nazar v. Kasper is too early to judge, but given the Wings experience in Sweden it is hard to argue differently at this point.

For that matter, tell us which Yzerman draft has not been a success so far?

2019 - Seider (1st) is a horse

2020 - Raymond (1st) is a horse
2020 - Wallinder (2nd) is a late draft brithday, and progressing nicely.

2021 - Edvinsson (1st) looks to be very good, came into this season recovering with major shoulder surgery, they took it slow with him. Judging by the end of season NHL play he has responded great.
2021 - Cossa (1st) has the potential ( admittedly a big if) to be a superstar, is on track.
2021- Another big if, but if it turns out Buium can skate at an NHL level he could be really good.
2021- Mazur (3rd) and first year pro Looks like he should contribute.

2022-Kasper (1st) just finished a solid rookie AHL year. Still plenty time for others to emerge from the class

2023 - Danielson (1st) needs to play with the big boys before we can judge further, but we are happy he showed well pre-season and Bedard called him the toughtest player to play against in the W.
2023- Sandin-Pellika (1st), very good season in SWEHL, another potential horse.

What would you have done differently?

Just pointing out:

2019 - HORSE
2020 - HORSE
2021 - very good
2022 - solid rookie year, others may emerge
2023 - needs to play with big boys to judge further
2024 - potential HORSE

Seider and Raymond were tremendous picks. No one would argue that. Rest is ordinary drafting and no steals at all. Looks like my Oilers drafting from 2021 to 2024. First rounders aren't on the roster and no 2nd to 7th rounder anywhere in sight. A lot of Detroits (and Tampa's) success was based on 2nd to 7th rounders coming out of nowhere and becoming world class superstars and HOF's.

I'm not saying all those guys won't become NHLers but I wouldn't call them homeruns... and I'm not sure how many will become Top 4 D, starting goalies and Top 6 forwards. Time will tell.

2021 - Ervidson was 6th... here are all the guys with more NHL points than him today (red line is the 4th pick). Guienter, Knies and Eklund were taken after him. So was knies. Stars fans LOVE Stankoven.

2022 - Kasper at 8 but Poitras, Mintyukov and Miroschenko (mispelt badly, sorry) are all tracking better as guys taken after him.

2023 - way too early (2022 is probably too) but Benson is certainly doing better than Danielson.

Obviously, hindsight is 20-20 but here are some examples of guys doing better from those drafts taken after your guys. Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

 

[Chainshot]

Just pointing out:

2019 - HORSE
2020 - HORSE
2021 - very good
2022 - solid rookie year, others may emerge
2023 - needs to play with big boys to judge further
2024 - potential HORSE

Seider and Raymond were tremendous picks. No one would argue that. Rest is ordinary drafting and no steals at all. Looks like my Oilers drafting from 2021 to 2024. First rounders aren't on the roster and no 2nd to 7th rounder anywhere in sight. A lot of Detroits (and Tampa's) success was based on 2nd to 7th rounders coming out of nowhere and becoming world class superstars and HOF's.

I'm not saying all those guys won't become NHLers but I wouldn't call them homeruns... and I'm not sure how many will become Top 4 D, starting goalies and Top 6 forwards. Time will tell.

2021 - Ervidson was 6th... here are all the guys with more NHL points than him today (red line is the 4th pick). Guienter, Knies and Eklund were taken after him. So was knies. Stars fans LOVE Stankoven.

View attachment 856640


2022 - Kasper at 8 but Poitras, Mintyukov and Miroschenko (mispelt badly, sorry) are all tracking better as guys taken after him.

Still love Kasper but the game for him will not be about points IMO. If he and Danielson both work out, with Larkin as the 1C, they will have a Bruins-esque potential down the middle IMO. Not name guys, just really good at winning their matchup.

2023 - way too early (2022 is probably too) but Benson is certainly doing better than Danielson.

Obviously, hindsight is 20-20 but here are some examples of guys doing better from those drafts taken after your guys. Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

Cossa's first season was a trial but this AHL year was excellent.

 

[Czechboy]

Still love Kasper but the game for him will not be about points IMO. If he and Danielson both work out, with Larkin as the 1C, they will have a Bruins-esque potential down the middle IMO. Not name guys, just really good at winning their matchup.



Cossa's first season was a trial but this AHL year was excellent.

For sure and they are all good players... not saying they are busts but I'm not seeing the next Raymond/Seider in the group. Maybe ASP but that feels at least 2 years away to me (stat watching and I could be dead wrong on this one but D take longer usually).

I value your opinion a lot so here is my question, of the guys after Raymond.. who would you take over Kulich today? Eg. 1 for 1.. Kulich for Ervidson, Kulich for Kasper or Kulich for Danielson? Which trade makes you happy?

 

[Chainshot]

For sure and they are all good players... not saying they are busts but I'm not seeing the next Raymond/Seider in the group. Maybe ASP but that feels at least 2 years away to me (stat watching and I could be dead wrong on this one but D take longer usually).

I value your opinion a lot so here is my question, of the guys after Raymond.. who would you take over Kulich today? Eg. 1 for 1.. Kulich for Ervidson, Kulich for Kasper or Kulich for Danielson? Which trade makes you happy?

That's hard to say. I was a big fan of both Kasper and Danielson in their drafts and could see either being on par or better than Kulich down the line. I can also see him being better than them down the line. Marco's dad even talked about how he thought Buffalo was going to take him as did one of our local bloggers who has some ties to the team's scouts.

I can't speak to Edvinsson as much. It would take a lot to make me happy to see Kulich dealt.

Yes, they do need some more game breakers. They look like they have a solid middle of the lineup though and Yzerman has shown willing to augment via trade and UFA so I would expect that continues. He likely knows he needs more first line talent though I would also be curious to see how Kasper, Danielson and Berggren turn out since they might be capable when they're fully formed. In the meantime, it's something I expect he tries to address.

 

[Dotter]

Seider is absolutely a top 4 defender.

But he’s very clearly not good enough to be a #1. He’s not good enough defensively. He’s a better offensive defender than he was expected to be when drafted. But worse defensively.

This post reminds me of how people dumped on Victor Hedman's first 7 NHL seasons, until he turned like 26 and broke out as one of the best game breaking elite dman in the league.

I wonder if people forget Seider literally just turned 23 like 3 weeks ago and he's already facing the hardest minutes as a #1 in the league. If Seider is a #4, then Nik Lidstrom, Rob Blake and Ray Bourque were just lowly #2's.

Hedman is a #4 and Makar is a #3 when he's popping.

Or, hear me out, you are just horrible at judging talent. Which is more likely? I'd say stick with playing marbles.

 

[norrisnick]

Just pointing out:

2019 - HORSE
2020 - HORSE
2021 - very good
2022 - solid rookie year, others may emerge
2023 - needs to play with big boys to judge further
2024 - potential HORSE

Seider and Raymond were tremendous picks. No one would argue that. Rest is ordinary drafting and no steals at all. Looks like my Oilers drafting from 2021 to 2024. First rounders aren't on the roster and no 2nd to 7th rounder anywhere in sight. A lot of Detroits (and Tampa's) success was based on 2nd to 7th rounders coming out of nowhere and becoming world class superstars and HOF's.

I'm not saying all those guys won't become NHLers but I wouldn't call them homeruns... and I'm not sure how many will become Top 4 D, starting goalies and Top 6 forwards. Time will tell.

2021 - Ervidson was 6th... here are all the guys with more NHL points than him today (red line is the 4th pick). Guienter, Knies and Eklund were taken after him. So was knies. Stars fans LOVE Stankoven.

View attachment 856640


2022 - Kasper at 8 but Poitras, Mintyukov and Miroschenko (mispelt badly, sorry) are all tracking better as guys taken after him.

2023 - way too early (2022 is probably too) but Benson is certainly doing better than Danielson.

Obviously, hindsight is 20-20 but here are some examples of guys doing better from those drafts taken after your guys. Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

Edvinsson is quite likely the best player Yzerman has drafted for Detroit.

 

[Czechboy]

Edvinsson is quite likely the best player Yzerman has drafted for Detroit.

Given what I've read about Asp, Seider and Raymond... The guy sounds amazing.

 

[norrisnick]

Given what I've read about Asp, Seider and Raymond... The guy sounds amazing.

They are rolling him ridiculously slow given what he most needs to work on (IE acclimating to NHL speed) but his ceiling is no less than Hedman's.

His size, skating, touch with the puck, willingness to engage physically, etc... He's going to be a force before too long.

 

[Czechboy]

They are rolling him ridiculously slow given what he most needs to work on (IE acclimating to NHL speed) but his ceiling is no less than Hedman's.

His size, skating, touch with the puck, willingness to engage physically, etc... He's going to be a force before too long.

Slow is key for D. Second hardest position to figure out (after G). Swedes make great Dman... It's uncanny. If you were to list the 20 best Euro D... 15 would probably be Swedish. Changing a bit now but they were the pride of Europe for a good decade.

 

[cvaicunas]

I think 5 years is a reasonable timeline to get your team into the playoffs and into the top 16 of the league.

not sure Pittsburgh will reach rock bottom. They also have some Cups from that window. Do you think they won't make playoffs for the next 5 straight years? What is your answer to your question?

Rangers rebuild started in 2018.. they sent a note to the fans and everything...

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

They won the President's Trophy this year.

here are their 5 years after announcing their rebuild:

View attachment 855833

As an Oil fan.. we spend a decade in shit. I don't recommend it. Detroit can attract better free agents and should be better at this than us. FTR.. I wanted Stevie Y as our GM to get us out of the decade of darkness.

The Rangers are an entirely different set of circumstances. Polar opposite playbook by ownership and management. It has been well discussed that the Illitch's wanted to continue for the record playoff streak of 25 years. Assets, such as Zetterberg, Datysuk, Lidstrom, Kronwall, Howard were not sold off at high value to jump start a rebuild. New York did just that. Not to mention having both Fox and Panarin want to come to NY specifically. Fans of teams such as the Caps and Pens, should expect a rebuild more in line with the Wings, than the Rangers.

 

[cvaicunas]

I think Ken Holland is a pretty good, but not without flaws, GM and has done a pretty serviceable job with the Oilers... I acknowledge Rasmussen was an uninspiring pick and that Zadina was a whiff. But if we're being fair, we should probably also acknowledge that Larkin was a very good pick, and that it's getting a bit tiresome to keep blaming everything on him when he hasn't been the Red Wings GM for a while now.

Sorry this is a long one here, but show me where Holland set ANY GM up for future success. I used the 2012 draft, as that was the beginning of the end for Wings competively speaking. Yes he drafted Larkin, but what other standout are you seeing there? Combine that with his penchant for handing out excessive term and money to vets, poor panicked FA signings, and you can begin to see why most Red Wing fans lament the end of Holland's tenure. The point Wings fans have been making, is that the cupboard was barren when Yzerman. BARREN!!! Has every move worked out so far, absolutely not. But you can't take a roster devoid of any real talent, with cap issues, and expect it to turn around in 5 years. Two years of this rebuild was burning time waiting for anchor contracts to expire.

2012 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2012 Entry	49	2	Martin Frk	R	Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]	124	20	21	41	24
2012 Entry	80	3	Jake Paterson	G	Saginaw Spirit [OHL]
2012 Entry	110	4	Andreas Athanasiou	C	London Knights [OHL]	487	127	118	245	189
2012 Entry	140	5	Mike McKee	D	Lincoln Stars [USHL]
2012 Entry	170	6	James De Haas	D	Toronto Lakeshore Patriots [OJHL]
2012 Entry	200	7	Rasmus Bodin	D	Osterlunds [Sweden]

2013 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2013 Entry	20	1	Anthony Mantha	R	Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]	494	142	154	296	266
2013 Entry	48	2	Zach Nastasiuk	R	Owen Sound Attack [OHL]
2013 Entry	58	2	Tyler Bertuzzi	L	Guelph Storm [OHL]	406	113	148	261	248
2013 Entry	79	3	Mattias Janmark-Nylen	C	AIK [SEL]	557	80	115	195	183
2013 Entry	109	4	David Pope	L	West Kelowna Warriors [BCHL]
2013 Entry	139	5	Mitch Wheaton	D	Kelowna Rockets [WHL]
2013 Entry	169	6	Marc McNulty	D	Prince George Cougars [WHL]
2013 Entry	199	7	Hampus Melen	R	Tingsryd Jrs. (Sweden)

2014 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2014 Entry	15	1	Dylan Larkin	C	U.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]	652	212	294	506	411
2014 Entry	63	3	Dominic Turgeon	C	Portland Winterhawks [WHL]	9	0	0	0	2
2014 Entry	106	4	Christoffer Ehn	C	Frolunda (Sweden Jrs.)	114	5	8	13	8
2014 Entry	136	5	Chase Perry	G	Wenatchee Wild [NAHL]
2014 Entry	166	6	Julius Vahatalo	F	TPS (Finland Jrs.)
2014 Entry	196	7	Axel Holmstrom	F	Skelleftea (Sweden Jrs.)
2014 Entry	201	7	Alexander Kadeykin	F	Moscow Oblast Atlant [KHL]

2015 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2015 Entry	19	1	Evgeny Svechnikov	L	Cape Breton Screaming Eagles [QMJHL]	172	20	25	45	84
2015 Entry	73	3	Vili Saarijarvi	D	Green Bay Gamblers [USHL]
2015 Entry	110	4	Joren Van Pottelberghe	G	Linkopings Jrs. (Sweden)
2015 Entry	140	5	Chase Pearson	C	Youngstown Phantoms [USHL]	3	0	0	0	0
2015 Entry	170	6	Patrick Holway	D	Boston Advantage U18
2015 Entry	200	7	Adam Marsh	L	Saint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]

2016 Entry
Draft	Num.	Round	Player	Pos	Drafted From	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM
2016 Entry	20	1	Dennis Cholowski	D	Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]	117	10	20	30	28
2016 Entry	46	2	Givani Smith	R	Guelph Storm [OHL]	155	9	13	22	250
2016 Entry	53	2	Filip Hronek	D	Hradec Kralove [Czech]	390	35	170	205	200
2016 Entry	107	4	Alfons Malmstrom	D	Orebro Jrs (Sweden)
2016 Entry	137	5	Jordan Sambrook	D	Erie Otters [OHL]
2016 Entry	167	6	Filip Larsson	G	Djurgarden Jrs (Sweden)
2016 Entry	197	7	Mattias Elfstrom	L	Malmo Jrs (Sweden)

2017 Entry	9	1	Michael Rasmussen	C	Tri-City Americans [WHL]	313	49	70	119	211
2017 Entry	38	2	Gustav Lindstrom	D	Almtuna IS [Swe-1]	174	5	30	35	80
2017 Entry	71	3	Kasper Kotkansalo	D	Sioux Falls Stampede [USHL]
2017 Entry	79	3	Lane Zablocki	R	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]
2017 Entry	83	3	Zachary Gallant	C	Peterborough Petes [OHL]
2017 Entry	88	3	Keith Petruzzelli	G	Muskegon Lumberjacks [USHL]
2017 Entry	100	4	Malte Setkov	D	Malmo [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry	131	5	Cole Fraser	D	Peterborough Petes [OHL]
2017 Entry	162	6	Jack Adams	C	Fargo Force [USHL]
2017 Entry	164	6	Reilly Webb	D	Hamilton Bulldogs [OHL]
2017 Entry	193	7	Brady Gilmour	C	Saginaw Spirit [OHL]

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I think by 2028, Detroit will be unstoppable. As will Chicago, NJ and Philly.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

I think by 2028, Detroit will be unstoppable. As will Chicago, NJ and Philly.

And if they're still not in the playoffs by then, you'll still have the usual suspects here continuing to bleat the tired "Trust the Yzerplan!" nonsense with no tangible results.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Seider had a great rookie season and he has regressed every year since, which is particularly odd since the team has gotten better around him.

You just overrate the guy, exactly like I stated.

Absolutely nothing about Seider has regressed since his rookie season.

Not progressed as well as expected by some? Sure, but far from regressed.

He played the hardest minutes in the NHL while being paired with either Ben Chairot or Jake Walman lol

 

[nbwingsfan]

Just pointing out:

2019 - HORSE
2020 - HORSE
2021 - very good
2022 - solid rookie year, others may emerge
2023 - needs to play with big boys to judge further
2024 - potential HORSE

Seider and Raymond were tremendous picks. No one would argue that. Rest is ordinary drafting and no steals at all. Looks like my Oilers drafting from 2021 to 2024. First rounders aren't on the roster and no 2nd to 7th rounder anywhere in sight. A lot of Detroits (and Tampa's) success was based on 2nd to 7th rounders coming out of nowhere and becoming world class superstars and HOF's.

I'm not saying all those guys won't become NHLers but I wouldn't call them homeruns... and I'm not sure how many will become Top 4 D, starting goalies and Top 6 forwards. Time will tell.

2021 - Ervidson was 6th... here are all the guys with more NHL points than him today (red line is the 4th pick). Guienter, Knies and Eklund were taken after him. So was knies. Stars fans LOVE Stankoven.

View attachment 856640


2022 - Kasper at 8 but Poitras, Mintyukov and Miroschenko (mispelt badly, sorry) are all tracking better as guys taken after him.

2023 - way too early (2022 is probably too) but Benson is certainly doing better than Danielson.

Obviously, hindsight is 20-20 but here are some examples of guys doing better from those drafts taken after your guys. Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

Do you not know Edvinsson (you spelled him wrong too) is a defense first defenseman? Why the hell would you judge hi based on the forwards picked after him? Lol

 

[cvaicunas]

I mean the FIRST thing that comes t mind is not signing Holl, he's not good, he doesn't make you better, he's a mistake machine and Detroit doesn't have the scoring depth to cover for that.

Signing Holl is nowhere near a move defining this rebuild. He sat in the press box most of the season.

What years were it again when Detroit got really bad luck and dropped a few spots in the draft lottery?

Essentially every one. But 2020 is the one your thinking off. .

No excuses. Av's should have drafted #1 and dropped to 4th after our 48 point season. Had to draft some dman plug playing college hockey who was from Calgary.

Which generational talent in recent years has dropped in the draft.... Mitchkovl, maybe? I mean kudos to the Avs for making the pick, but let's not act like generational talents are hanging around at 4 every year, and it's just the teams job to pick the right one.

 

[cvaicunas]

50 point plus 40 top pairing D are easy to find.

Look at his splits with and without Hughes..... Hronek was, and always has been a solid, albeit defensively weak #4. Hughes propped up his play over the first half of the season.

 

[Fatass]

Look at his splits with and without Hughes..... Hronek was, and always has been a solid, albeit defensively weak #4. Hughes propped up his play over the first half of the season.

Hughes is a phenom, that’s for sure. Is Hronek Devon Toews? Looks great along side a phenom.

 

[ricky0034]

the whole "Holland left him nothing to work with!" thing is kinda funny when combined with just how bad this team looks whenever Larkin isn't in the lineup

maybe it's time for people to let it go and stop using Ken Holland as an excuse

 

[raymond23]

Just pointing out:

2019 - HORSE
2020 - HORSE
2021 - very good
2022 - solid rookie year, others may emerge
2023 - needs to play with big boys to judge further
2024 - potential HORSE

Seider and Raymond were tremendous picks. No one would argue that. Rest is ordinary drafting and no steals at all. Looks like my Oilers drafting from 2021 to 2024. First rounders aren't on the roster and no 2nd to 7th rounder anywhere in sight. A lot of Detroits (and Tampa's) success was based on 2nd to 7th rounders coming out of nowhere and becoming world class superstars and HOF's.

I'm not saying all those guys won't become NHLers but I wouldn't call them homeruns... and I'm not sure how many will become Top 4 D, starting goalies and Top 6 forwards. Time will tell.

2021 - Ervidson was 6th... here are all the guys with more NHL points than him today (red line is the 4th pick). Guienter, Knies and Eklund were taken after him. So was knies. Stars fans LOVE Stankoven.

View attachment 856640


2022 - Kasper at 8 but Poitras, Mintyukov and Miroschenko (mispelt badly, sorry) are all tracking better as guys taken after him.

2023 - way too early (2022 is probably too) but Benson is certainly doing better than Danielson.

Obviously, hindsight is 20-20 but here are some examples of guys doing better from those drafts taken after your guys. Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

Where do I start with this post…

It’s pretty clear you’ve watched zero of the red wings draft picks yet you are making sweeping statements about all of their projections based on… points? things you’ve read? I’m not really sure

I thought your Edvinsson take was gonna be your worst but you had to slip in that Cossa take last second

 

[norrisnick]

the whole "Holland left him nothing to work with!" thing is kinda funny when combined with just how bad this team looks whenever Larkin isn't in the lineup

maybe it's time for people to let it go and stop using Ken Holland as an excuse

Holland gets to be off the hook when Abdelkader's caphit goes away.

 

[ricky0034]

Holland gets to be off the hook when Abdelkader's caphit goes away.

it would be gone by now if Yzerman hadn't bought him out, it would have been gone by the end of last season actually

 

[norrisnick]

it would be gone by now if Yzerman hadn't bought him out, it would have been gone by the end of last season actually

And I'm sure keeping him around would have been warmly embraced by the peanut gallery.

You can use this same line of reasoning when Yzerman's successor buys out Copp.

 

[nbwingsfan]

the whole "Holland left him nothing to work with!" thing is kinda funny when combined with just how bad this team looks whenever Larkin isn't in the lineup

maybe it's time for people to let it go and stop using Ken Holland as an excuse

Do you think it’s easy to build a contending team with the base of one lower end #1C and essentially nothing else? Especially when you keep dropping in the draft?