When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[nbwingsfan]

That post wasn't about improvements, it was about "accomplishment"

Improving every single season is literally an accomplishment.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think 5 years is a reasonable timeline to get your team into the playoffs and into the top 16 of the league.

not sure Pittsburgh will reach rock bottom. They also have some Cups from that window. Do you think they won't make playoffs for the next 5 straight years? What is your answer to your question?

Rangers rebuild started in 2018.. they sent a note to the fans and everything...

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

They won the President's Trophy this year.

here are their 5 years after announcing their rebuild:

View attachment 855833

As an Oil fan.. we spend a decade in shit. I don't recommend it. Detroit can attract better free agents and should be better at this than us. FTR.. I wanted Stevie Y as our GM to get us out of the decade of darkness.

The Rangers also had a top 5D who refused to sign anywhere but them.

They also had an arguable top 10 forward to refused to sign anywhere else but them.

Don’t remember anyone lining up to sign in Detroit like that, do you?

They also won two lotteries, although kind of blew both picks, especially Kakko

 

[Chainshot]

I don’t understand the question in the OP. The Yzerplan has been taking criticism from fans who wanted to bag on him from the day he took the job. So apparently that was the time it was appropriate to question the plan.

Yeah, it seems like it's been pretty constant agitation about it with most Wing fans and some neutral outsiders as wellbeing okay with it .

 

[Dotter]

I told you what I thought of the Draft Picks, is two years considered adequate time to rebuild? Rules for thee, not for me...

Right, so you acknowledge he gave Yzerman a very young and very good Center. 5 years later, has Yzerman maximized having that sort of asset? Meh. I lean "no".. he'll likely be pushing 30 by the time he wins a Playoff Series.

What are "my standards"? I think he gave the Red Wings excess draft picks as I'd expect of a team that is rebuilding but those picks were uninspiring.

Not sure I understand the question, I think Wing fans were hopeful for Playoffs by '21 when Yzerman was hired but likely adjusted their expectations when the '17 and '18 draft classes were uninspiring... and I don't know why you're bringing COVID into this discussion unless it's just excuse making.

I've said my peace on Yzerman, I acknowledge GMs don't control everything but I also think he's treated with kid gloves because of who he is. Most notably, I've never heard a good reason as to why it wouldn't have been better to be a bit lower in the standings in '22, '23 and now I'll throw '24 into the mix. I've heard plenty of whining about draft lottos and nobody being better than Seider and Raymond at their picks, but I've never heard what made pushing for the middle with prospects getting blocked/buried particularly wise, other than 'we don't want to be Buffalo'. The Avalanche had a -112 goal differential in 2016-17, some five years after drafting Landeskog 2nd overall. They even got "screwed" on the Draft Lotto, but they were still picking high enough and ended up with a Norris/Conn Smythe Defenseman with their 4th overall pick. I'd much rather do it 'dishonorably' or whatever and get a Stanley Cup, rather than talk about "progress" after going on a 2-year spending spree to finish 9th and miss the Playoffs anyways.

So using your standards, Yzerman has done a good job.

You think Wings fans expected Yzerman building a playoff team by 2021? He just started rebuilding in 2020. I don't even consider 2019 a rebuild season, it was an "observation" season. Hell, Yzerman didn't even have his own scouting staff when he entered the draft as Detroit's GM. Yzerman wasn't part of the Wings organization until literally weeks leading up to the 19' NHL draft.

The rebuild didn't start until 2020. The pieces Holland left Yzerman was only Larkin and Hronek and LOTS of bad contracts and little to no assets.

I know you think Larkin is a top 5 center in the NHL. But I would rank him top 10-15. He's good, but he isn't McDavid good. Close? Maybe. Not on McDavid's level.

It takes, on average, 8 to 10 years to rebuild an NHL team (with sporadic PO beatdowns sprinkled in). Yzerman started in 2020 (4 years in) and has significant improvements. And I agree, despite missing the lottery, he drafted players that are as good as lottery talent. His drafting has been nothing less than spectacular.

Hopefully some of those later picks pan out. Definitely looks promising some become HUGE impact players for many years to come.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I think Ken Holland is a pretty good, but not without flaws, GM and has done a pretty serviceable job with the Oilers... I acknowledge Rasmussen was an uninspiring pick and that Zadina was a whiff. But if we're being fair, we should probably also acknowledge that Larkin was a very good pick, and that it's getting a bit tiresome to keep blaming everything on him when he hasn't been the Red Wings GM for a while now.

Would you like to point out for the class where Yzerman took over

 

[saska sault]

Improving every single season is literally an accomplishment.

No.... it's an *improvement*, that doesn't count because it doesn't fit the narrative. People have short attention spans and like to watch standings and not hockey games .

 

[bleedgreen]

Yeah, it seems like it's been pretty constant agitation about it with most Wing fans and some neutral outsiders as wellbeing okay with it .

I think he’s done good. He inherited a mess and they’re pretty turned around now.

 

[TKB]

Yeah, it seems like it's been pretty constant agitation about it with most Wing fans and some neutral outsiders as wellbeing okay with it .

It is astounding how many "non-interested" HF posters are so concerned about the Yzerman rebuild.

It is even more astounding how ill informed they are, as if they have not listened to a thing SFY has said from day one or understand how he has operated in the past, both as an execuitve and a player (or listened to Red Wing fans who have tried to explain it to them).

Does it all work out in the end? Time will tell, but it in the mean time it sure is amusing , watching "non-interested" posters get hot bothered about a timeline and standard that they invented themselves.

 

[Chainshot]

I think he’s done good. He inherited a mess and they’re pretty turned around now.

I'm in that boat as well. Holland left him a mess, now he's built a solid base for them to move forward.

 

[TKB]

Yzerman went on a 2-year spending spree to finish 9th. Blocked some prospects from callup roles this year so who knows what they have outside former Top 10 picks at this point. Only a couple of long-term players (high picks drafted 4-5 years ago and due for new contracts) on the roster. Picking 15th this draft. Not sure why this is considered an accomplishment in your book.

Enlighten us.

What first round picks of Yzerman, are not on plan?

 

[FMichael]

Crazy to think improving every year for 5 years straight , coming from a dumpster fire isn't progress but OK.

Even more crazy is the idea of drafting players who aren’t generational talent courtesy of the lottery…

 

[WarriorofTime]

Enlighten us.

What first round picks of Yzerman, are not on plan?

Hi, you bolded something that didn't relate to the question you asked. Please revise and send back, thx.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Hi, you bolded something that didn't relate to the question you asked. Please revise and send back, thx.

Are you going to answer the like 8 posters who have now asked you to explain how improving every season is an accomplishment?

That Edvisson, Seider and Raymond are getting better each year and not close to their primes?

That ASP, Danielson, Kasper, Cossa, Augustine and others haven’t even sniffed the NHL yet?


That unlikely most NHL teams, we have both draft capital and cap space to make a big move if one becomes available?

Until there’s an actual drop off on the teams performance since he took over the worst team in the NHL, there’s really very little to complain about

 

[WarriorofTime]

Are you going to answer the like 8 posters who have now asked you to explain how improving every season is an accomplishment?

That Edvisson, Seider and Raymond are getting better each year and not close to their primes?

That ASP, Danielson, Kasper, Cossa, Augustine and others haven’t even sniffed the NHL yet?


That unlikely most NHL teams, we have both draft capital and cap space to make a big move if one becomes available?

Until there’s an actual drop off on the teams performance since he took over the worst team in the NHL, there’s really very little to complain about

I’ve explained the difference between improvement and accomplishment and how the improvement is mostly a mirage from a spending spree from the addition of non-long term pieces. I’ve explained the lack of home runs and how the remaining top 10 pick prospects are of the low ceiling variety. I’ve expressed the concerns about the long term outlook and expressed doubt on the push for 8th. Outside of name calling there has not been much rebuttal to any of those points and more so the ad nauseam repeats of an improved record from year 1 to year 5 as the ultimate trump card, devoid of context.

 

[schuelma24]

I’ve explained the difference between improvement and accomplishment and how the improvement is mostly a mirage from a spending spree from the addition of non-long term pieces. I’ve explained the lack of home runs and how the remaining top 10 pick prospects are of the low ceiling variety. I’ve expressed the concerns about the long term outlook and expressed doubt on the push for 8th. Outside of name calling there has not been much rebuttal to any of those points and more so the ad nauseam repeats of an improved record from year 1 to year 5 as the ultimate trump card, devoid of context.

I know this is pointless, but what the hell ... if you actually paid attention, you would know that the development of Lucas Raymond (not to mention Seider/Edvinsson playing top 4 roles), who just turned 22, was far more important to the Wings playoff push than any player from the so called "spending spree."

Your obsession with the Wings is just .... weird.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I’ve explained the difference between improvement and accomplishment and how the improvement is mostly a mirage from a spending spree from the addition of non-long term pieces. I’ve explained the lack of home runs and how the remaining top 10 pick prospects are of the low ceiling variety. I’ve expressed the concerns about the long term outlook and expressed doubt on the push for 8th. Outside of name calling there has not been much rebuttal to any of those points and more so the ad nauseam repeats of an improved record from year 1 to year 5 as the ultimate trump card, devoid of context.

Tell me, which home run picks have Chicago made outside of top 10 picks?

What exactly makes our picks “Low ceiling” guys? You do know Seider and Larkin were both considered “low ceiling” picks, eh? They turned out alright.

Also the oldest players Yzerman has drafted are now only like 23 years old, yet you’re writing them off as done.

Interesting. Wrong, but interesting

 

[mriswith]

He got screwed by the lottery hard, but also improved the team too fast and stopped tanking too soon. Should have tanked in 2023.

Should have gotten Byfield or Stutzle in 2020 and never needed to tank after that, but after getting screwed by the lotto he needed to keep tanking until he hit on a #1 centre.

The criticism is massively overblown though. Holland left an absolute wasteland and the drafts they tanked in were weak.

He mishandled Berggren though. Wasted a good player.

 

[KingsFan7824]

He got screwed by the lottery hard

This is like saying teams get screwed because of the "loser" point. No, every team knows what the rules are at the same time, and they apply across the board. If they only picked the seasons when Detroit finished last to have lotteries, because they don't want the Wings specifically to have the 1st pick, and every other year there's no lottery, that would be getting screwed by the lottery.

 

[TKB]

Hi, you bolded something that didn't relate to the question you asked. Please revise and send back, thx.

You are posting in a thread titled "When does the Yzerpalan Get Criticized?" You mention he only has two high draft picks on the roster.

So...tell us, what 1st round picks should he not have made? Don't tell us he should have tanked longer, because you repeadtedly state the rebuild is taking too long.

Sanderson instead of Raymond? Wallstead instead of Cossa. Nazar instead of Kasper?

While I personally wanted Sanderson, and understand the Wallstead vs Cossa debate, I have no complaints whatsoever. Nazar v. Kasper is too early to judge, but given the Wings experience in Sweden it is hard to argue differently at this point.

For that matter, tell us which Yzerman draft has not been a success so far?

2019 - Seider (1st) is a horse

2020 - Raymond (1st) is a horse
2020 - Wallinder (2nd) is a late draft brithday, and progressing nicely.

2021 - Edvinsson (1st) looks to be very good, came into this season recovering with major shoulder surgery, they took it slow with him. Judging by the end of season NHL play he has responded great.
2021 - Cossa (1st) has the potential ( admittedly a big if) to be a superstar, is on track.
2021- Another big if, but if it turns out Buium can skate at an NHL level he could be really good.
2021- Mazur (3rd) and first year pro Looks like he should contribute.

2022-Kasper (1st) just finished a solid rookie AHL year. Still plenty time for others to emerge from the class

2023 - Danielson (1st) needs to play with the big boys before we can judge further, but we are happy he showed well pre-season and Bedard called him the toughtest player to play against in the W.
2023- Sandin-Pellika (1st), very good season in SWEHL, another potential horse.

What would you have done differently?

 

[Ezekial]

This is like saying teams get screwed because of the "loser" point. No, every team knows what the rules are at the same time, and they apply across the board. If they only picked the seasons when Detroit finished last to have lotteries, because they don't want the Wings specifically to have the 1st pick, and every other year there's no lottery, that would be getting screwed by the lottery.

I mean, there's clearly a difference in moving from say, 5 to 2, 5 to 2, and 3 to 1 and moving from 1 to 4, 4 to 6, and 6 to 8 twice.
One team is relatively lucky and the other was relatively unlucky - also seen as being screwed by the system (more than the other teams at least). It's all relative and you have to play with the hand you're dealt at the end of the day.

You are posting in a thread titled "When does the Yzerpalan Get Criticized?" You mention he only has two high draft picks on the roster.

So...tell us, what 1st round picks should he not have made? Don't tell us he should have tanked longer, because you repeadtedly state the rebuild is taking too long.

They'll say Benson over Danielson without realizing Yzerman would've sent Benson back to the W too.

 

[McJedi]

Se

Seider Is great. he should be anchoring a second pairing, and the PK. He shouldn’t be expected to be a point producer. Didn’t Yzerman draft ASP as the club’s future top D man?

Seider is absolutely a top 4 defender.

But he’s very clearly not good enough to be a #1. He’s not good enough defensively. He’s a better offensive defender than he was expected to be when drafted. But worse defensively.

 

[McJedi]

1/3 seasons.

Moritz has stood out more than Raymond 2/3 seasons.

HF posters continuously look at the "what have you done for me recently" oppose to overall play and you fit in this cadre and likely why you get told off so much.

Seider had a great rookie season and he has regressed every year since, which is particularly odd since the team has gotten better around him.

You just overrate the guy, exactly like I stated.

 

[Fatass]

Seider had a great rookie season and he has regressed every year since, which is particularly odd since the team has gotten better around him.

You just overrate the guy, exactly like I stated.

Seider was asked to go too much since trading away Hronek.

 

[Ezekial]

He's young and asked to go shut down the best players in the league without a true top pairing partner while also being relied on offensively.

It's a lot.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

He's young and asked to go shut down the best players in the league without a true top pairing partner while also being relied on offensively.

It's a lot.

Not good enough!