When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Czechboy]

To me, 18th is low for year 5. I keep reading the drafting has been amazing and there are a lot of great players coming in. But I also keep reading the Wing's have no luck in the draft with lottery picks and such (true).

I look at the cap and I see a lot of contracts I personally wouldn't want for next season:

Debrincat at 8 mill
Copp at 5 mill
Compher at 5 mill
Rasmusson goes to 3 mill next season
Chariot at 5
Holl at 3
Petry at 2.4
Wallman at 3.4
Husso at 5
Abdelkader and Yam at 1.5 next season

I am also embarrassed to see that 2 Czechs took up almost 4 mill in cap space in Simek and Vrana.. but they're off the books now.

Obviously, some of those guys I'm wrong on and maybe those contracts are fair value. Just looks like a lot of 'meh' to me.

 

[WarriorofTime]

View attachment 855773

To me, 18th is low for year 5. I keep reading the drafting has been amazing and there are a lot of great players coming in. But I also keep reading the Wing's have no luck in the draft with lottery picks and such (true).

I look at the cap and I see a lot of contracts I personally wouldn't want for next season:

Debrincat at 8 mill
Copp at 5 mill
Compher at 5 mill
Rasmusson goes to 3 mill next season
Chariot at 5
Holl at 3
Petry at 2.4
Wallman at 3.4
Husso at 5
Abdelkader and Yam at 1.5 next season

I am also embarrassed to see that 2 Czechs took up almost 4 mill in cap space in Simek and Vrana.. but they're off the books now.

Obviously, some of those guys I'm wrong on and maybe those contracts are fair value. Just looks like a lot of 'meh' to me.

Well said, part of their issue going forward is their lack of Homeruns from later picks. Every successful rebuild teams hits a few homeruns. We can pretty confidently say that for Drafts like '19 and '20, but even further, we're not writing the book on '22 and '23 picks, but are there homeruns? I like Augustine, have for a while, dunno about a "homerun" though. I see him as a very safe at least NHL backup and likely lower ceiling 1B type so the situation with him and Cossa will sort itself out.. The middle draft in '21, kind of similar, the S. Buium/Mazur/Savage group isn't bad by any means, but nobody that anybody is particularly jealous of either. Much of the current "progress" is a bit of a mirage as far as how it reflects on the "rebuild" due to a significant number of veteran players that were added over the prior two offseasons with cap space to be spent and prospects to be kept to overmarinate without a lot of callups, and pump the "team prospect ranking".

Anyways, add to that, their most recent top 10 picks that aren't pushing for a roster spot yet both project out as more lower ceiling depth guys and now they're adding a 15th pick in another no playoff year, maybe they go real boom or bust here, but that's not a spot that often projects super highly. Their two best picks are both already up for second contract, the middle guy only played 16 NHL games this season.. I probably would have had him up for about 40 but maybe they thought he wasn't ready to push for the Playoff spot.

My read on the Red Wings remains pretty similar, they're a pretty mid-team, they may get a season or so in the next couple where old and young blend together to form a pretty deep/competitive go that can make a stab at it and win a round/challenge for another, but gradually the old will get filtered out for the young and then I don't know if they'll have the horses from there. As tough as "forever rebuilds" are to stomach especially when they whiffed on a couple of high picks in '17 and '18 (pre-Yzerman coming back), if you're gonna miss the Playoffs anyways in '22, '23 and '24, I'd probably rather just have the draft positioning improved in each of those years.

 

[Dotter]

7 straight years of missed playoffs (2 with Holland, 5 with Yzerman) isn't exactly a "short period of time", but way to completely miss the point.

What's industry standard?

AND

Do you think Ken Holland did a good job with the time he spent rebuilding DRWs?

 

[norrisnick]

who currently has ASP’s elite offensive skills and will run the PP?

1. Running the PP doesn't make you the #1
2. Mo or Ed

 

[WarriorofTime]

What's industry standard?

AND

Do you think Ken Holland did a good job with the time he spent rebuilding DRWs?

I think Ken Holland is a pretty good, but not without flaws, GM and has done a pretty serviceable job with the Oilers... I acknowledge Rasmussen was an uninspiring pick and that Zadina was a whiff. But if we're being fair, we should probably also acknowledge that Larkin was a very good pick, and that it's getting a bit tiresome to keep blaming everything on him when he hasn't been the Red Wings GM for a while now.

 

[God]

Was Horvat offered for Hronek and Yzerman said no? If that’s the case then that was a huge mistake by him. Horvat vs pick 18 is a no brainer. Larkin and Horvat as the centres for the top two lines would have made the difference. Wow! I didn’t know that offer was made. Huge mistake.

I believe the deal fell through because the Canucks wouldn't allow negotiations with Horvat on a contract extension. I believe Hronek was their target after all, and Horvat would've almost certainly signed an extension given that his family is from a town close to Detroit and IIRC he was a Red Wings fan growing up.

 

[norrisnick]

To me, 18th is low for year 5. I keep reading the drafting has been amazing and there are a lot of great players coming in. But I also keep reading the Wing's have no luck in the draft with lottery picks and such (true).

How long do you think it will take say Pittsburgh to reach rock bottom and then climb back out of the hole? Old team, long playoff run, any and all semblance of futures sold off trying to maintain a playoff streak that by all rights should have ended earlier so the rebuild can begin in earnest. This is assuming that the current old core doesn't have a last hurrah in them.

What is a reasonable timeline to get that team back on the upswing and into contention?

 

[God]

I like well thought out posts like this because we can actually have a conversation. Other critics are like "yzerman sucks because we expect greatness!" You actually put thought into your post. So kudos.

1. Pro scouts can be amazing if the players they really advocate for won't sign here. Kane did after Debrincat. So this might be the first step towards attracting UFAs.

-side note. Walman has been fantastic. Chariot has come around. Compher is a fantastic 3rd line center if he was on the 3rd line! Holl was a mistake. Lets see how Yzerman handles it.

2. Coaching is subpar. But I don't think Yzerman is "expecting" to make the playoffs, he said he is "hopeful". So no pressure on the coach. Yzerman seems to be patient man and I think he sees each year Lalonde has been here as "progress".

3. Since Yzerman drafted Seider in 2019, how many players made the league? Looking at your teams draft history, y'all drafted 2 subpar players that made it the past 5 years. They'd be HUGE disappointments if DRWs had that 'lack of' draft success. Wings have a calder winner, and a calder runner up. And it looks Raymond is going to be a game breaker. He just turned 22 literally 3 weeks ago.

Currently, Edvinsson looks like a stud. He has earned himself a top3 full time spot on DRWs.

NHL isn't a development league. That's what OTT and Sabres do. They draft players and quickly send them to the NHL. That's not what they do in Detroit. You won't see Cossa for another 2 or 3 years. You won't see Kasper for another year or two. You *should see Danielsson in next season or two. - he's the most NHL ready, but not there yet.

Fair enough on the scouting given the recency, but Detroit had 3 picks in the second round in 2019 and only 10 players in that round haven't played an NHL game yet...when you miss on all 3 (maybe not Johansson), it's not a great look.

I think with Kasper/Edvisson/Danielson coming up in the next two years, it'll turn around pretty quickly, but Yzerman needs to hit some pro scouting targets out of the park to surround them with quality vets. A team like Ottawa realizes they didn't do enough of that and are apparently willing to offer a bunch of cash for someone like Tanev to set some standards there. Maybe a goalie too because I'm never confident in goalie prospects.

 

[Czechboy]

How long do you think it will take say Pittsburgh to reach rock bottom and then climb back out of the hole? Old team, long playoff run, any and all semblance of futures sold off trying to maintain a playoff streak that by all rights should have ended earlier so the rebuild can begin in earnest. This is assuming that the current old core doesn't have a last hurrah in them.

What is a reasonable timeline to get that team back on the upswing and into contention?

I think 5 years is a reasonable timeline to get your team into the playoffs and into the top 16 of the league.

not sure Pittsburgh will reach rock bottom. They also have some Cups from that window. Do you think they won't make playoffs for the next 5 straight years? What is your answer to your question?

Rangers rebuild started in 2018.. they sent a note to the fans and everything...

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

They won the President's Trophy this year.

here are their 5 years after announcing their rebuild:

As an Oil fan.. we spend a decade in shit. I don't recommend it. Detroit can attract better free agents and should be better at this than us. FTR.. I wanted Stevie Y as our GM to get us out of the decade of darkness.

 

[Dotter]

I think Ken Holland is a pretty good, but not without flaws, GM and has done a pretty serviceable job with the Oilers... I acknowledge Rasmussen was an uninspiring pick and that Zadina was a whiff. But if we're being fair, we should probably also acknowledge that Larkin was a very good pick, and that it's getting a bit tiresome to keep blaming everything on him when he hasn't been the Red Wings GM for a while now.

I'm not asking about Oilers who already had the best up and coming forward core in the world when he took over. I'm asking if you think he did a good job rebuilding Detroit?

Larkin.... Yup. He was dubbed a good 2nd line center (Helm with hands) and everyone acknowledges he made a good pick. Larkin has turned into a solid #1 two-way center.

But, to your standards, did Holland do a good job rebuilding?

Also, you dodged the first question. What is industry standard going from rebuild to PO team? Yzerman went full on tank mode in 2020, then covid happened and got screwed out of the lottery.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Yzerman wasn’t brought back to make excuses. He was brought back here to elevate the Red Wings back to greatness. And the fact that he just ended year 5 on the
job with zero playoff appearances is a MAJOR problem.

He’s improved the team every single season he’s been here, where he started with one of the worst teams in the cap era history and now missed the playoffs by zero points. Add in zero top 3 picks with that and he’s done a decent job.

Now next year if they fakter and the rookies he’s drafted don’t start pushing for roster spots then it’ll start to be an issue. As will keeping Lalonde if they start the season poorly

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm not asking about Oilers who already had the best up and coming forward core in the world when he took over. I'm asking if you think he did a good job rebuilding Detroit?

I told you what I thought of the Draft Picks, is two years considered adequate time to rebuild? Rules for thee, not for me...

Larkin.... Yup. He was dubbed a good 2nd line center (Helm with hands) and everyone acknowledges he made a good pick. Larkin has turned into a solid #1 two-way center.

Right, so you acknowledge he gave Yzerman a very young and very good Center. 5 years later, has Yzerman maximized having that sort of asset? Meh. I lean "no".. he'll likely be pushing 30 by the time he wins a Playoff Series.

But, to your standards, did Holland do a good job rebuilding?

What are "my standards"? I think he gave the Red Wings excess draft picks as I'd expect of a team that is rebuilding but those picks were uninspiring.

Also, you dodged the first question. What is industry standard going from rebuild to PO team? Yzerman went full on tank mode in 2020, then covid happened and got screwed out of the lottery.

Not sure I understand the question, I think Wing fans were hopeful for Playoffs by '21 when Yzerman was hired but likely adjusted their expectations when the '17 and '18 draft classes were uninspiring... and I don't know why you're bringing COVID into this discussion unless it's just excuse making.

I've said my peace on Yzerman, I acknowledge GMs don't control everything but I also think he's treated with kid gloves because of who he is. Most notably, I've never heard a good reason as to why it wouldn't have been better to be a bit lower in the standings in '22, '23 and now I'll throw '24 into the mix. I've heard plenty of whining about draft lottos and nobody being better than Seider and Raymond at their picks, but I've never heard what made pushing for the middle with prospects getting blocked/buried particularly wise, other than 'we don't want to be Buffalo'. The Avalanche had a -112 goal differential in 2016-17, some five years after drafting Landeskog 2nd overall. They even got "screwed" on the Draft Lotto, but they were still picking high enough and ended up with a Norris/Conn Smythe Defenseman with their 4th overall pick. I'd much rather do it 'dishonorably' or whatever and get a Stanley Cup, rather than talk about "progress" after going on a 2-year spending spree to finish 9th and miss the Playoffs anyways.

 

[norrisnick]

I think 5 years is a reasonable timeline to get your team into the playoffs and into the top 16 of the league.

not sure Pittsburgh will reach rock bottom. They also have some Cups from that window. Do you think they won't make playoffs for the next 5 straight years? What is your answer to your question?

Rangers rebuild started in 2018.. they sent a note to the fans and everything...

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

They won the President's Trophy this year.

here are their 5 years after announcing their rebuild:

View attachment 855833

As an Oil fan.. we spend a decade in shit. I don't recommend it. Detroit can attract better free agents and should be better at this than us. FTR.. I wanted Stevie Y as our GM to get us out of the decade of darkness.

Not if the first half of those 5 years is spent bottoming out and getting rid of the trash that was on the roster.

If Dubas decides to tear it down, I don't see them in the playoffs within 5 years, no. It's very hard to sell off everything and fully tank within one year. It's a multi-year process down and then about double that trying to come back up. If he sells off 1 piece to try and salvage the last of Crosby's career? Maybe they squeak in, but that will just make the drought that will follow even longer.

Superstar prospects falling in your lap will always change the equation, but if you can't plan for them. It's a slow slog.

Look at the '17-'18 Rangers roster and then look at the '18-'19 Red Wings roster and tell me what differences you see. The Rangers were a good team underachieving so they decided to pull the ripcord. 2 lottery wins, a bluechip defensive prospect demanding to join your team, and a Panarin free agent signing really helps speed things along.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

Whatever you do, if he has a big off-season, do *not* call it the 'Summer of Yzerman', I cannot stress that enough.

 

[Fatass]

1. Running the PP doesn't make you the #1
2. Mo or Ed

High end #1 D run their club’s PP. Imo Detroit doesn’t currently have that kind of elite guy. That’s why Yzerman drafted ASP. He’s hoping the prospect can be one his high end #1. Imo Yzerman know the club isn’t winning without that key role filled.

 

[Fatass]

I believe the deal fell through because the Canucks wouldn't allow negotiations with Horvat on a contract extension. I believe Hronek was their target after all, and Horvat would've almost certainly signed an extension given that his family is from a town close to Detroit and IIRC he was a Red Wings fan growing up.

Horvat might have signed for a bit less than he did on the island too. IMO the Wings make the playoffs with Horvat and Larkin holding down those top two centre spots. Yzerman must kick himself for that miss.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t understand the question in the OP. The Yzerplan has been taking criticism from fans who wanted to bag on him from the day he took the job. So apparently that was the time it was appropriate to question the plan.

 

[nbwingsfan]

From the outside looking in:

1. Pro scouting hasn't been good enough. There are some ok finds here and there (Sprong, Walman, Compher, Perron), but none that really move the needle too much, and Holl and Chiarot have been pretty bad and relatively untradeable.
2. Coaching is too average. I don't think Blashill and Lalonde are bad necessarily, but they probably work better with teams that have an identity. We've seen two coaches this year do a complete culture change (Tocchet, Bowness). It's possible with a fairly young team.
3. The fact that the amateur scouting hasn't been able to find top end talent over a number of years is pretty inexcusable. I don't know what the structure is like there, but something has to change.

As an aside, I really wish Yzerman pulled the trigger on the Hronek for Horvat trade. I'm pretty pissed that Horvat just chose to sign with the Islanders... he would've fit perfectly on Detroit.

Seider and Edvisson were pretty damn good picks. Anyone from 2020 and beyond is way too early to say they haven’t found any top end talent

 

[GMR]

7 straight years of missed playoffs (2 with Holland, 5 with Yzerman) isn't exactly a "short period of time", but way to completely miss the point.

If they made the playoffs this year but lost quickly to New York, would that be more impressive?

Way I see it, their ceiling is the same; either just miss the playoffs or lose in the first round. The question is, when will their ceiling become higher (a team that can win several playoff rounds)? They weren't there in 2024 even if they were playing this weekend.

Their ceiling won't be higher next season either unless some splash happens in free agency/trade.

When the next batch of prospects become regulars then we'll see whether this team can be a threat. That's several seasons away.

 

[norrisnick]

High end #1 D run their club’s PP. Imo Detroit doesn’t currently have that kind of elite guy. That’s why Yzerman drafted ASP. He’s hoping the prospect can be one his high end #1. Imo Yzerman know the club isn’t winning without that key role filled.

They do. Signing a specialist for a year doesn't change that. ASP will never be the #1 unless he magically becomes a Fox clone. And then the Wings would have three #1s.

 

[norrisnick]

Not sure I understand the question, I think Wing fans were hopeful for Playoffs by '21 when Yzerman was hired

The latter portion explains the first part. Any Wing fan that was thinking playoffs in '21 was straight up dealing with insanity.

 

[Ezekial]

7 straight years of missed playoffs (2 with Holland, 5 with Yzerman) isn't exactly a "short period of time", but way to completely miss the point.

Again you're only focusing on the Wings and not how none of the other bottom teams with us have done anything to get out of the bottom since 2017 except Colorado and Vancouver from 2017 and LA (and New Jersey with their last season) from more recently
The Wings are ancillary to my point.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Almost making the playoffs is amazing progress for 5 years lol

 

[nbwingsfan]

You know the run you had finished far earlier than 2019 when Y got there.

You’ve been drafting in the top10 from 2017-> with rebuild in mind

Y walked in in 2019 with your 1C already drafted and still haven’t made the playoffs, especially not getting in this year was a total choke job

& yes a team that started their move to a new core in 2017 (with Larkin already there) should be expected to be good by now, if that team was run well.

Detroit fans just love to put the blinders on and being happy about being mediocre at best

A #1C, who’s constantly injured and is already on the lower end of the spectrum of #1Cs. He’s no McDavid.

Please lay out everything Yzerman should have done to be a contender already.

If it’s so easy, you should have no problem listing them, right?

 

[arttk]

Of all the teams that were bottom 5 pre lottery from the 19-21 drafts with us, only LA finished ahead of us this season. You don't teleport from awful to good in an instant.

Canucks says hi