When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Dotter]

No no no you’ve got it all wrong!

Yzerman should have been able to see the future and traded him for a 1st + as he should have “recognized” he was a bust while simultaneously tricking other GMS into thinking he wasn’t

WarriorofTime is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[TKB]

It’s the over ripening that I am questioning, I would say my posts have been pretty clear on this point and it’s a consistent one I have made.

So, on the one hand you are saying the Wings haven't drafted enough talent, on the other hand you are saying that these same guys should be finding their way to the NHL quicker.

Got it.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Signing Holl is nowhere near a move defining this rebuild. He sat in the press box most of the season.

Essentially every one. But 2020 is the one your thinking off. .


Which generational talent in recent years has dropped in the draft.... Mitchkovl, maybe? I mean kudos to the Avs for making the pick, but let's not act like generational talents are hanging around at 4 every year, and it's just the teams job to pick the right one.

That's even worse because it means you paid him 3.4 million for nothing

 

[WarriorofTime]

So, on the one hand you are saying the Wings haven't drafted enough talent, on the other hand you are saying that these same guys should be finding their way to the NHL quicker.

Got it.

I’m not sure what specific points you are confused about. If you have a specific question, I can address rather than broad generalizations.

 

[Ulysses31]

a couple bad to mediocre signings but looking good atm. if they regress next yr tho id be a tad concerned tho.

 

[TKB]

I’m not sure what specific points you are confused about. If you have a specific question, I can address rather than broad generalizations.

I already did that, you didn't respond.

You should just admit you don't understand the situation in Detroit as well as you think you do.

Notice hardly anyone (in fact I don't recall seeing any Wings fan say this) thinks the Yzerman rebuild is a lock to return Detroit to glory. We just laugh at repeated ignorant opinions, on the state of the rebuild, where it is coming from, and ownership's historical perspective.

Rebuilds are easy to talk about about, but difficult to execute. There is not enought "game breakers" to go around for everyone in rebuild mode and even if you get them you risk being too top-heavy.

In the mean time Yzerman has earned his respect and benefit of the doubt, and I am interested to see how far a team can get with a more balanced approach. The Bruins have been highly competitivefor over a decade witouth high end draft picks. We are lucky to have a GM and onwership with the patience to take this approach (though I do wonder if ownership had an influence for not tanking one more year for the Bedard sweepstakes).

 

[WarriorofTime]

I already did that, you didn't respond.

You should just admit you don't understand the situation in Detroit as well as you think you do.

Notice hardly anyone (in fact I don't recall seeing any Wings fan say this) thinks the Yzerman rebuild is a lock to return Detroit to glory. We just laugh at repeated ignorant opinions, on the state of the rebuild, where it is coming from, and ownership's historical perspective.

Rebuilds are easy to talk about about, but difficult to execute. There is not enought "game breakers" to go around for everyone in rebuild mode and even if you get them you risk being too top-heavy.

In the mean time Yzerman has earned his respect and benefit of the doubt, and I am interested to see how far a team can get with a more blanced approach. The Bruins have been highly competitivefor over a decade witouth high end draft picks. We are lucky to have a GM and onwership with the patience to take this approach (though I do wonder if ownership had an influence for not tanking one more year for the Bedard sweepstakes).

Care to elaborate on what I “don’t understand well”? I don’t agree that blocking prospects with mid vets to finish 9th was a great use of rebuild time.

 

[Herby]

so basically your blaming him for not “recognizing” Zadina was a bust and ripping off another GM?

What if every other GM also recognized he wasn’t any good and weren’t offering anything?

I know that thought never once crossed your mind though, he should have just traded him for a 1st, right?

The original team, through both camp experiences and more extensive scouting should be able to recognize a bust quicker than the rest of the league does.

They were never going to get back the type of draft capital used to take him, but they could have gotten something back at the 2019 or 2020 drafts.

I still for the life of me don't know how they could have been less than an hour from Hughes and not sprinted up to the stage to draft him when he was there at 7.

 

[TKB]

Care to elaborate on what I “don’t understand well”? I don’t agree that blocking prospects with mid vets to finish 9th was a great use of rebuild time.

It has been explained to you in this very thread by NUMEROUS posters......

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

You just refuse to demonstrate that you understand anything that has been pointed out to you.

 

[SimpleJack]

JMO but the team showed some flashes of life this season - much moreso than in any of the previous 7 seasons. The record shows improvement as well with the team posting a points percentage .60 points higher than any other season in the past 8 years.

A long view is prudent for stuff like this.

Bite my lip and close my eyes,
Take me away to paradise.

 

[nbwingsfan]

How is Yzerman supposed to evaluate him after one pre season ? lol.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Fair enough on the scouting given the recency, but Detroit had 3 picks in the second round in 2019 and only 10 players in that round haven't played an NHL game yet...when you miss on all 3 (maybe not Johansson), it's not a great look.

And if Tuomisto and Johansson had 20 meaningless games between them things would be completely fine and the rebuild on track in your eyes..? Or, are you exaggerating the importance of the games the majority of those 2nd round picks have played?

2021 - Ervidson was 6th... here are all the guys with more NHL points than him today (red line is the 4th pick). Guienter, Knies and Eklund were taken after him. So was knies. Stars fans LOVE Stankoven.

View attachment 856640

Edvinsson is a defenseman. Surely you realize that, right? I'm not sure you do, since you completely butcher his name and compare him to 5'10 forwards.

2022 - Kasper at 8 but Poitras, Mintyukov and Miroschenko (mispelt badly, sorry) are all tracking better as guys taken after him.

2023 - way too early (2022 is probably too) but Benson is certainly doing better than Danielson.

Based on Danielson's performance in preseason I don't think 30 points would have been unreasonable to expect had he played the entire season in the NHL. Would it have made the Wings better? Debatable. Would it have been better for Danielson? Also debatable. It's not a sprint.

No one's gonna argue that the Wings got (or should get) the best player from every single draft. If you can only find 1 or 2 examples of players that are maybe tracking better, that means Yzerman drafted well, perhaps even incredibly well.

Obviously, hindsight is 20-20 but here are some examples of guys doing better from those drafts taken after your guys. Don't even get me started on Cossa over Walstedt.

You need to update your Cossa take. It's 2024.

I still for the life of me don't know how they could have been less than an hour from Hughes and not sprinted up to the stage to draft him when he was there at 7.

Why this is still being litigated as if Yzerman had any part of it is beyond me, and frankly part of why it's hilarious to claim Yzerman gets a "free pass".

 

[God]

And if Tuomisto and Johansson had 20 meaningless games between them things would be completely fine and the rebuild on track in your eyes..? Or, are you exaggerating the importance of the games the majority of those 2nd round picks have played?

Well, I never said that 20 GP would have set a rebuild on track... or anything even close to that.

But using games played as a metric to judge scouting departments is a pretty commonly used barometer for how well they're doing. And yeah, they could end up with maybe 50-100 games played between them, and that's at least showing your amateur scouting was close in finding a player but they just didnt end up being good enough for the NHL. You should hope that your second round picks at the very least become serviceable AHLers, and only one of them is tracking well right now.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Well, I never said that 20 GP would have set a rebuild on track... or anything even close to that.

But using games played as a metric to judge scouting departments is a pretty commonly used barometer for how well they're doing. And yeah, they could end up with maybe 50-100 games played between them, and that's at least showing your amateur scouting was close in finding a player but they just didnt end up being good enough for the NHL. You should hope that your second round picks at the very least become serviceable AHLers, and only one of them is tracking well right now.

The point is what does it matter? 0 games or 50 games doesn’t mean much if the end result is no real NHL impact either way. Söderblom has played more NHL games than half the 2nd rounders, just pretend he was drafted with the Mastrosimone pick and your arbitrary measuring stick looks better I guess.

It just feels like attempts to rush a judgement on Detroit’s drafting. But it’s not that simple. Dallas’ magical 2017 draft is bookended by really bad 2016 and 2018 drafts. Brutal picks like Honka, Gurianov, Tufte etc. are countered with fantastic ones like Hintz, Johnston etc.
You need a way bigger sample size than ”how did the 2nd rounders in this one draft do so far”. Wings fans aren’t saying every pick is a star - we’re saying enough of them look good to live with some misses.

 

[dekelikekocur]

I still for the life of me don't know how they could have been less than an hour from Hughes and not sprinted up to the stage to draft him when he was there at 7.

And that failure is on Holland. Yzerman didn't draft Zadina.

What Yzerman did do is try to make the best of the situation by assessing what Zadina was and to give a player a chance that had no value and see if Zadina could shape up into being something of value.

 

[Miller Time]

The team and the roster have seemingly spun their wheels (pun intended) for a bit now.

Have you already criticized it?

Or is making the playoffs next season critical?

Or does Yzerman have a longer leash due to his reputation?

He's lucky he's in a US market with minimal expectations...

4 years in and still not a playoff team is not great, though the Wings certainly do have a very promising group of U25 players.

If he wiffs again this summer and they fail to make the playoffs again next year, you'd think the pressure to perform finally starts showing up.

Red Wings have 7 straight years of top 10 picks, with 15 2nds & 10 total first rounders in that window... And a willingness to spend...

Kinda crazy that they are still on the outside looking in

 

[saska sault]

I look forward to the bump in this thread in 2 years when things finish percolating.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Red Wings have 7 straight years of top 10 picks, with 15 2nds & 10 total first rounders in that window... And a willingness to spend...

Kinda crazy that they are still on the outside looking in

Why are you blaming Yzerman for 2017 and 2018 and why are you expecting 2022 and 2023 draft picks to already be in the NHL?

In reality the time he's been in Detroit is so short that we're really talking about the impact of ~2 drafts.

2019: Their #1 D-man and guy facing the toughest matchups in the NHL
2020: Their MVP of the season, one of the best U23 players in the NHL and easily their best player down the stretch in their most important games

"Kinda crazy" that people expect multiple star level players from every single draft from Yzerman, rather than judging him like he's a human being.

 

[norrisnick]

He's lucky he's in a US market with minimal expectations...

Reasonable.

 

[Chainshot]

How could they have “tanked” without trading Larkin/Seider?

It’s funny how Holl, Compher, Petry, Copp etc all suck (they mostly do) but at the same time also kept us competitive at the same time?

Schrödinger's Yzerplan?

 

[Ezekial]

The original team, through both camp experiences and more extensive scouting should be able to recognize a bust quicker than the rest of the league does.

They were never going to get back the type of draft capital used to take him, but they could have gotten something back at the 2019 or 2020 drafts.

I still for the life of me don't know how they could have been less than an hour from Hughes and not sprinted up to the stage to draft him when he was there at 7.

Same reason Montreal and Arizona took centers over him, Quinn Hughes was a tremendous prospect, but far from a slam dunk. We might have taken Bouchard if we went D instead of Hughes, there was no consensus on any of the 4 Hughes, Bouchard, Boqvist and Dobson.

Man I f***ing hate revisionist history, especially on a medium where I can type a username and a player's name and see takes they've had on a person. (this doesn't apply to quoted user, general statement)

 

[Hammettf2b]

Same reason Montreal and Arizona took centers over him, Quinn Hughes was a tremendous prospect, but far from a slam dunk. We might have taken Bouchard if we went D instead of Hughes, there was no consensus on any of the 4 Hughes, Bouchard, Boqvist and Dobson.

Man I f***ing hate revisionist history, especially on a medium where I can type a username and a player's name and see takes they've had on a person. (this doesn't apply to quoted user, general statement)

Wings did indeed have Bouchard ahead of the other Dmen available in that draft.

 

[TKB]

He's lucky he's in a US market with minimal expectations...

4 years in and still not a playoff team is not great, though the Wings certainly do have a very promising group of U25 players.

If he wiffs again this summer and they fail to make the playoffs again next year, you'd think the pressure to perform finally starts showing up.

Red Wings have 7 straight years of top 10 picks, with 15 2nds & 10 total first rounders in that window... And a willingness to spend...

Kinda crazy that they are still on the outside looking in

Name one first round pick made by Yzerman that is a bust.

 

[GoldenKnight]

The way I see it, Detroit is at a crossroads and must make the playoffs next season, for the sake of their still young-ish core. This season was a great learning experience for them, but their young guys are entering their primes and it is time to shake off the loser label and make the playoffs come next season, or risk entering Buffalo (or pre-McDavid Oilers) territory as a losing team no FA will want to play for.

This summer is make or break for Yzerman. It would help if he used the 15th overall to make the team better now in 2024-25, but he needs to make sure that whoever his target is will also help the team for years to come. In other words, target players in their twenties, not their thirties. He has the picks, draft capital, and league-wide connections to make some very big moves, and it's time he does that and we see tangible results in the year-end standings with a playoff berth this season as the bare minimum expectation.

 

[Miller Time]

Why are you blaming Yzerman for 2017 and 2018 and why are you expecting 2022 and 2023 draft picks to already be in the NHL?

Where did I blame him for that?

Simply pointed out the high volume of high draft picks accumulated over the years. Facts are facts.

In reality the time he's been in Detroit is so short that we're really talking about the impact of ~2 drafts.

2019: Their #1 D-man and guy facing the toughest matchups in the NHL
2020: Their MVP of the season, one of the best U23 players in the NHL and easily their best player down the stretch in their most important games

"Kinda crazy" that people expect multiple star level players from every single draft from Yzerman, rather than judging him like he's a human being.

Who expects that?

The GM role is asset management and roster assembly. He's been at it for 4 years, the roster at this point is still not playoff worthy. That's not great no matter how you slice it.

I'm a big fan of Yzerman's body of work. Really wish the Habs had given him his first GM job before he went to Tampa.

He laid a great foundation there and built the structure that led to one of the best team runs in decades.

But the RedWings work this far has been underwhelming at best. Is what it is.