When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Just wait until Chicago is given the 1OA in this draft and gets Celebrini.

Chicago gonna speedrun their rebuild.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Who expects that?

The GM role is asset management and roster assembly. He's been at it for 4 years, the roster at this point is still not playoff worthy. That's not great no matter how you slice it.

You, you expect that. If you believe his work has been underwhelming. Or where are you expecting the talent to come from?

I'm a big fan of Yzerman's body of work. Really wish the Habs had given him his first GM job before he went to Tampa.

He laid a great foundation there and built the structure that led to one of the best team runs in decades.

But the RedWings work this far has been underwhelming at best. Is what it is.

In Tampa he started with Stamkos & Hedman, and when they were at the same point in their development as Seider & Raymond, Tampa also missed the playoffs.

The foundation? The structure? That took longer to emerge and be visible.

These were headlines in 2013:

Steve Yzerman, not Guy Boucher, at fault in Tampa

Since getting off to a flying start in 2011-12, the Steve Yzerman era in Tampa Bay has stalled considerably.

Draft aligned, this is where Tampa was at after Yzerman's first 5 drafts, heading into the 6th:

2010: Gudas (20 point player)
2011: Kucherov (65 point player), Palat (60 point player)
2012: Vasielievsky (16 NHL games)
2013: Drouin (mediocre rookie season)
2014: Point (had yet to make NHL debut)

Overall I wouldn't say the results were that incredible after the same amount of time. Again, he had Stamkos & Hedman to build around so overall outlook was better, but it goes to show that even if you make great draft picks you can't really expect them to make the NHL and be in their prime in this short of a time.

 

[Dotter]

Red Wings have 7 straight years of top 10 picks, with 15 2nds & 10 total first rounders in that window... And a willingness to spend...

Let's take a deeper dive and look at that...

1. Rasmussen #9 (Holland) = mid
2. Zadina #6 (Holland) = bust
3. Sider #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
4. Raymond #4 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise forward
5. Edvinsson #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
6. Kasper #8 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising
7. Danielson #9 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising

Not one top 3 pick on that list. Looks like Yzerman had to deal with Holland's mess in Detroit when he arrived. Then was a an absolute rockstar drafting his own top 10 guys. Nothing less than masterful!

 

[Czechboy]

Let's take a deeper dive and look at that...

1. Rasmussen #9 (Holland) = mid
2. Zadina #6 (Holland) = bust
3. Sider #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
4. Raymond #4 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise forward
5. Edvinsson #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
6. Kasper #8 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising
7. Danielson #9 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising

Not one top 3 pick on that list. Looks like Yzerman had to deal with Holland's mess in Detroit when he arrived. Then was a an absolute rockstar drafting his own top 10 guys. Nothing less than masterful!

Zadina approaching 300 NHL GP (262) and is a bust.
Edvinsson has played 25 NHL games and is a game breaking franchise dman.

 

[Ezekial]

Zadina approaching 300 NHL GP (262) and is a bust.
Edvinsson has played 25 NHL games and is a game breaking franchise dman.

Definitely early to say that about Edvinssson but your countryman sucks.

Edvinssson is going to be great, possibly our best defenseman. So the fact that you didn't argue Seider but argue against Edvinssson makes it seem like a tangible label to us who follow him.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Zadina approaching 300 NHL GP (262) and is a bust.
Edvinsson has played 25 NHL games and is a game breaking franchise dman.

Obviously it’s way too early to call him a franchise level D, but Edvinsson has shown infinitely more than Zadina has his whole career combined. He’ll be out of the league in very short order.

Quality > quantity

 

[Czechboy]

Definitely early to say that about Edvinssson but your countryman sucks.

Edvinssson is going to be great, possibly our best defenseman. So the fact that you didn't argue Seider but argue against Edvinssson makes it seem like a tangible label to us who follow him.

Good chance he's back in the NHL next season. Good chance he cracks 300 GP. Much better than a lot of my countrymen like Hajek, Kaut, Zboril etc.

I do think Seider is a franchise Dman. I'd kill for him on my Oil or to change his nationality to Czech.lol

I also KNOW that, today, Edvisson is not a franchise dman at the age of 21 after playing 25 games. He may be one day.. but it is not today or this past season. Maybe we'll be calling him a franchise D a year from now but I'm skeptical.

 

[Czechboy]

Obviously it’s way too early to call him a franchise level D, but Edvinsson has shown infinitely more than Zadina has his whole career combined. He’ll be out of the league in very short order.

Quality > quantity

I think he signs an extension and will be back next year. No idea how you can compare 25 games to 262 games and be taken seriously.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I think he signs an extension and will be back next year. No idea how you can compare 25 games to 262 games and be taken seriously.

I’m saying Edvinsson is his call up this season why bay a wide margin, our 2nd best D out there despite his limited games played. It would take some kind of massive regression to be on the same level Zadina has been on.

Once again, quality of games > quantity of games.

Zadina is at best, a waiver fodder player

 

[Dotter]

Zadina approaching 300 NHL GP (262) and is a bust.
Edvinsson has played 25 NHL games and is a game breaking franchise dman.

One player has cleared waivers, the other would fetch MASSIVE return in a trade. Guess who's who.

One is a bust, one is well on his way to help turn a franchise around....

 

[Pavels Dog]

Zadina approaching 300 NHL GP (262) and is a bust.
Edvinsson has played 25 NHL games and is a game breaking franchise dman.

Celebrini = 0 GP. Clearly Zadina is the better player there.

 

[Czechboy]

Celebrini = 0 GP. Clearly Zadina is the better player there.

Who drafted him? Did I miss something?

 

[McJedi]

Absolutely nothing about Seider has regressed since his rookie season.

Not progressed as well as expected by some? Sure, but far from regressed.

He played the hardest minutes in the NHL while being paired with either Ben Chairot or Jake Walman lol

Seider played the hardest minutes in NHL and played them terribly. He and his D partner got mauled this season. Seider has brutal defensive metrics. He’s badly outmatched playing that top pair role.

And hockey isn’t a 2 on 2 sport. Detroit has put much better forwards on the ice with Seider and Seider is still getting killed out there. Playing the majority of his minutes with guys like Larkin, Perron, DeBrincat and Raymond. Didn’t make Seider better. He’s gotten worse with better forwards to help him out.

 

[Czechboy]

One player has cleared waivers, the other would fetch MASSIVE return in a trade. Guess who's who.

One is a bust, one is well on his way to help turn a franchise around....

Bust that who played full time in the NHL and is at 250 plus games. Again, kaut is a bust. Zboril is a bust. Juolevi is a bust.

Big difference between guys that barely ever played in the NHL and quit hockey or returned to Europe and actual NHL players.

As far as franchise dman after 25GP. That's just silly. After 200 games, it is definitely a possibility though. Not saying he's not good. But I'd give that speech about 2 more seasons. Next year he hopefully hits 100 NHL games played after a full and healthy rookie season. Not guaranteed though.

 

[Miller Time]

Let's take a deeper dive and look at that...

1. Rasmussen #9 (Holland) = mid
2. Zadina #6 (Holland) = bust
3. Sider #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
4. Raymond #4 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise forward
5. Edvinsson #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
6. Kasper #8 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising
7. Danielson #9 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising

Not one top 3 pick on that list. Looks like Yzerman had to deal with Holland's mess in Detroit when he arrived. Then was a an absolute rockstar drafting his own top 10 guys. Nothing less than masterful!

Hindsight.

In 2019, you would've cried bloody murder had anyone called Zadina or Rasmussen a bust.

20M$ in cap room with no real anchor deadweight contracts and a top 10 rated prospect pool (even if zero players on that list pan out), is about as good a rebuild situation a GM can walk into.

Holland made a mess as far as icing a competitive roster, to be sure, but 4 years & 5 offseasons is a long runway.

Opinions are subjective & assessments relative, to be sure.

Contrast the situation Yzerman stepped into vs a situation like Montreal when Hughes took over... 2 offseasons & 2.5 seasons into it, a dead last roster with no cap room and 45M$ in anchors and a mid level prospect pool, and segments of the fan base are already getting impatient.

If in 2 years from now, Habs are still not a playoff team, Hughes won't find the same grace Yzerman is getting from the fans & media, despite starting from an objectively far worse situation.

In any case, point was not to bash Yzerman, whom I consider a top GM/hockey mind... But, it's a results business, and his results this far in Detroit are not stellar. Drafting has been solid, sure, but the roster building and overall asset management appear lackluster at best & the on ice results after 4 years mediocre

What team results at this point would you consider to be a success?

4 years & 5 offseasons into it, with the situation he inherited... Making the playoffs at a minimum.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Seider played the hardest minutes in NHL and played them terribly. He and his D partner got mauled this season. Seider has brutal defensive metrics. He’s badly outmatched playing that top pair role.

And hockey isn’t a 2 on 2 sport. Detroit has put much better forwards on the ice with Seider and Seider is still getting killed out there. Playing the majority of his minutes with guys like Larkin, Perron, DeBrincat and Raymond. Didn’t make Seider better. He’s gotten worse with better forwards to help him out.

How many games have you actually WATCHED?

You doubt you’ll find a single Wings fan who thinks Seider has regressed since his rookie season. Far from it.

He’s asked to play the hardest minutes in the NHL paired with some very bad players (Chiarot, Walman who’s only good offensively).

Listing Perron as a good player is hilarious, he’s a liability 5v5. Debrincat is a liability defensively and Raymond can really struggle attimes defensively as any young offensive forwarddoes

Hindsight.

In 2019, you would've cried bloody murder had anyone called Zadina or Rasmussen a bust.

20M$ in cap room with no real anchor deadweight contracts and a top 10 rated prospect pool (even if zero players on that list pan out), is about as good a rebuild situation a GM can walk into.

Holland made a mess as far as icing a competitive roster, to be sure, but 4 years & 5 offseasons is a long runway.

Opinions are subjective & assessments relative, to be sure.

Contrast the situation Yzerman stepped into vs a situation like Montreal when Hughes took over... 2 offseasons & 2.5 seasons into it, a dead last roster with no cap room and 45M$ in anchors and a mid level prospect pool, and segments of the fan base are already getting impatient.

If in 2 years from now, Habs are still not a playoff team, Hughes won't find the same grace Yzerman is getting from the fans & media, despite starting from an objectively far worse situation.

In any case, point was not to bash Yzerman, whom I consider a top GM/hockey mind... But, it's a results business, and his results this far in Detroit are not stellar. Drafting has been solid, sure, but the roster building and overall asset management appear lackluster at best & the on ice results after 4 years mediocre


4 years & 5 offseasons into it, with the situation he inherited... Making the playoffs at a minimum.

Who the hell had Detroit traded as a top 10 prospect pool in 2019? And what can you possibly mean it doesn’t matter that Zadina and Rasmussen ended up pretty terrible? Are you trying to suggest the Wings and Yzerman wouldn’t be in an entirely different situation had they had Hughes and Necas right now?

I see you’ve also once again ignored what you would have done differently to have them as both a playoff team now and have built a road to long term success?

 

[Ezekial]

He gets to play with guys like Perron!



Thanks I needed the laugh today.

 

[norrisnick]

about as good a rebuild situation a GM can walk into.

This is super helpful moving forward. Thanks.

 

[cvaicunas]

In what universe can anything that happened in 2021 or later be proven and/or long-term?

I think I've figured it out... most of the posters in here recently have a completely unfounded, and unrealistic opinion, that ALL top ten picks must be on an NHL roster within two years, or they are a bust. Other than that, I can not for the life of my understand how conclusions are being made on draft success.

 

[Miller Time]

Who the hell had Detroit traded as a top 10 prospect pool in 2019? And what can you possibly mean it doesn’t matter that Zadina and Rasmussen ended up pretty terrible? Are you trying to suggest the Wings and Yzerman wouldn’t be in an entirely different situation had they had Hughes and Necas right now?

I see you’ve also once again ignored what you would have done differently to have them as both a playoff team now and have built a road to long term success?

You completely miss the point

 

[nbwingsfan]

You completely miss the point

There was no point.

You literally said he walked onto a team with a top 10 prospect pool (they didn’t) and it doesn’t matter that Rasmussen and Zadina busted.

It’s between that and the Perron is a great player comment for most out of touch comment in a thread full of them.

Now for the 3rd time… what would you have done differently if not being in the playoffs right now is completely unacceptable to you.
Lay it all out for us if it’s so easy.

 

[Dotter]

But, it's a results business, and his results this far in Detroit are not stellar. Drafting has been solid, sure, but the roster building and overall asset management appear lackluster at best & the on ice results after 4 years mediocre

What Yzerman has done in Detroit in his short time there has been nothing less than spectacular. Your arbitrary timeline to make the playoffs is absurd. Your timeline is GOOFY, factually impossible and no team in NHL history has had a turnaround like you are ignorantly demanding - unless they were well set up by the previous brass.

Yzerman's incredible improvements has been noted - the graph posted some pages back show this. He has proven to be (by far) the best drafter in both 2019 and 2020 (and possibly 2021). He stole Seider and Raymond, and in a redraft they would certainly go top 3 in their respective draft. That was not luck. That was Yzerman proving he's the best.

It's going to be fun bumping this thread 3 years from now. All these hot takes are going to look stupid. It's too bad HFboards allows people to change their username. I bet you change yours.

 

[Miller Time]

There was no point.

Not understanding posts you reply to is a you issue, not an issue with the post.

You literally said he walked onto a team with a top 10 prospect pool (they didn’t) and it doesn’t matter that Rasmussen and Zadina busted.

Perhaps you don't understand what a prospect pool is

It’s between that and the Perron is a great player comment for most out of touch comment in a thread full of them.

Nah, you are leading the thread in that regard

Now for the 3rd time… what would you have done differently if not being in the playoffs right now is completely unacceptable to you.
Lay it all out for us if it’s so easy.

Done better than Reimer to back up the unproven Husso would be an easy starting point... Most observers questioned the Wings goaltending situation going into, during & in the post mortem of the year...

But still, you miss the point.

No GM should be evaluated on any one move or decision. It's a body of work.

Yzerman's body of work in Detroit is average. Ironically, the main thing keeping it out of a worse territory is the prospect pool he's assembled. One that, in hindsight, may well prove to have another Zadina in it. If you don't or can't comprehend how prospect pools work, don't bother replying.

 

[Miller Time]

What Yzerman has done in Detroit in his short time there has been nothing less than spectacular. Your arbitrary timeline to make the playoffs is absurd. Your timeline is GOOFY, factually impossible and no team in NHL history has had a turnaround like you are ignorantly demanding - unless they were well set up by the previous brass.

Yzerman's incredible improvements has been noted - the graph posted some pages back show this. He has proven to be (by far) the best drafter in both 2019 and 2020 (and possibly 2021). He stole Seider and Raymond, and in a redraft they would certainly go top 3 in their respective draft. That was not luck. That was Yzerman proving he's the best.

It's going to be fun bumping this thread 3 years from now. All these hot takes are going to look stupid. It's too bad HFboards allows people to change their username. I bet you change yours.

Oh, so 7 seasons and 8 offseasons is the trajectory?

Great for Yzerman that he has that kind of runway. Not every market or owner is as forgiving.

Doesn't really change the fact that for 4seasons/5offseasons, the overall results are mediocre.

 

[ManofSteel55]

I criticized it the moment he made that trade with Edmonton.