When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[TKB]

Hindsight.

In 2019, you would've cried bloody murder had anyone called Zadina or Rasmussen a bust.

20M$ in cap room with no real anchor deadweight contracts and a top 10 rated prospect pool (even if zero players on that list pan out), is about as good a rebuild situation a GM can walk into.

Holland made a mess as far as icing a competitive roster, to be sure, but 4 years & 5 offseasons is a long runway.

Opinions are subjective & assessments relative, to be sure.

Contrast the situation Yzerman stepped into vs a situation like Montreal when Hughes took over... 2 offseasons & 2.5 seasons into it, a dead last roster with no cap room and 45M$ in anchors and a mid level prospect pool, and segments of the fan base are already getting impatient.

If in 2 years from now, Habs are still not a playoff team, Hughes won't find the same grace Yzerman is getting from the fans & media, despite starting from an objectively far worse situation.

In any case, point was not to bash Yzerman, whom I consider a top GM/hockey mind... But, it's a results business, and his results this far in Detroit are not stellar. Drafting has been solid, sure, but the roster building and overall asset management appear lackluster at best & the on ice results after 4 years mediocre


4 years & 5 offseasons into it, with the situation he inherited... Making the playoffs at a minimum.

Why get worked up about year 4? He is building for the long haul.

They tied for the last wild card spot, were alive with a legitimate chance goint into OT of game 82 (which they won). That's a failure, but it Flyers score on Caps with goalie pulled, or get to OT and win, and suddlenly the season is a success, even if by minimlal standards? What exactly were your upper range expectations?

He inherited:

Larkin: able to resign him at price that sets a salary structure and epxectations for team going forward (this doesn't mean he will be the highest paid Red Wing)

Bertuzzi didn't want to sign at a price Yzerman was willing to pay, got a 1st ( I think this is the one used to get Debrincat, but could be wrong) and a 4th

Anthansious: took out the trash getting Gagne and two second round picks

Mantha- took out the trash getting a 1st ,a 2nd, Panik and a flyer on Vrana

Abdelkader - I won't say took out the trash, but way overpaid, and bought him out.

Hronek- a bit surprising but got a 1st (used to pick Sandin-Pelika) and a 2nd.

Zadina -granted his request to be outright released


Don't get fooled by the defensive performance this year, he is building a juggernaut D-corp. He has 2 good goalie prospects (one of which has an elite ceiling). The prospect pool overall is consensus rank within top 5. The record has improved every season.

There is work to be done and the jury is still out. But he is clearly playing the long game. Ownership and the fanbase (as a whole) understand this. HF Boards clearly doesn't.

 

[Dotter]

Oh, so 7 seasons and 8 offseasons is the trajectory?

Great for Yzerman that he has that kind of runway. Not every market or owner is as forgiving.

Doesn't really change the fact that for 4seasons/5offseasons, the overall results are mediocre.

In Yzerman's 7th season's in Detroit, he will have this team in the playoffs. That will allow his most recent top drafted players to make their way on the team.

That's even counting his first season he joined the DRWs literally weeks before the draft. He didn't even have a scouting staff yet. Odds stacked against him and he still drafted one of the best players in the draft. Just more proof of Yzerman's pedigree.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Not understanding posts you reply to is a you issue, not an issue with the post.


Perhaps you don't understand what a prospect pool is


Nah, you are leading the thread in that regard



Done better than Reimer to back up the unproven Husso would be an easy starting point... Most observers questioned the Wings goaltending situation going into, during & in the post mortem of the year...

But still, you miss the point.

No GM should be evaluated on any one move or decision. It's a body of work.

Yzerman's body of work in Detroit is average. Ironically, the main thing keeping it out of a worse territory is the prospect pool he's assembled. One that, in hindsight, may well prove to have another Zadina in it. If you don't or can't comprehend how prospect pools work, don't bother replying.

And guess what big guy, had the prospects he didn’t drafted, his “body of work” would be viewed as incredible so far.

That’s ignoring that literally no one viewed Detroit as having a top 10 prospect pool before the 2019 draft

 

[Frobbo]

Let's take a deeper dive and look at that...

1. Rasmussen #9 (Holland) = mid
2. Zadina #6 (Holland) = bust
3. Sider #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
4. Raymond #4 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise forward
5. Edvinsson #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
6. Kasper #8 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising
7. Danielson #9 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising

Not one top 3 pick on that list. Looks like Yzerman had to deal with Holland's mess in Detroit when he arrived. Then was a an absolute rockstar drafting his own top 10 guys. Nothing less than masterful!

You are an easy grader.

 

[Miller Time]

And guess what big guy, had the prospects he didn’t drafted, his “body of work” would be viewed as incredible so far.

I'm pretty small, thank you very much

That’s ignoring that literally no one viewed Detroit as having a top 10 prospect pool before the 2019 draft

There's this thing called the internet. You can use it to search things to avoid stating things factually incorrect

 

[Chainshot]

*snip*

Bertuzzi didn't want to sign at a price Yzerman was willing to pay, got a 1st ( I think this is the one used to get Debrincat, but could be wrong) and a 4th*snip*

Yes, that was the pick used to get Debrincat.

 

[Dotter]

You are an easy grader.

The talent oozing from those players make grading easy. All I do is watch it unfold and appreciate the spectacular accomplishments develop before my eyes.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Calling Edvinsson a franchise defenseman today instead of a developing prospect is really out there.

Even the Raymond opinion is a bit of a homer opinion. Jordan Eberle and Alex DeBrincat are amongst players that produced more at his current age. Calling him a “franchise forward” today is optimistic. Especially coming off a high personal and team on ice shooting percentage.

 

[Ncit3]

Zadina approaching 300 NHL GP (262) and is a bust.
Edvinsson has played 25 NHL games and is a game breaking franchise dman.

It's the 2 points in 16 games. GAME BREAKING.

 

[Lampedampe]

Hindsight.

In 2019, you would've cried bloody murder had anyone called Zadina or Rasmussen a bust.

20M$ in cap room with no real anchor deadweight contracts and a top 10 rated prospect pool (even if zero players on that list pan out), is about as good a rebuild situation a GM can walk into.

Holland made a mess as far as icing a competitive roster, to be sure, but 4 years & 5 offseasons is a long runway.

Opinions are subjective & assessments relative, to be sure.

Contrast the situation Yzerman stepped into vs a situation like Montreal when Hughes took over... 2 offseasons & 2.5 seasons into it, a dead last roster with no cap room and 45M$ in anchors and a mid level prospect pool, and segments of the fan base are already getting impatient.

If in 2 years from now, Habs are still not a playoff team, Hughes won't find the same grace Yzerman is getting from the fans & media, despite starting from an objectively far worse situation.

In any case, point was not to bash Yzerman, whom I consider a top GM/hockey mind... But, it's a results business, and his results this far in Detroit are not stellar. Drafting has been solid, sure, but the roster building and overall asset management appear lackluster at best & the on ice results after 4 years mediocre


4 years & 5 offseasons into it, with the situation he inherited... Making the playoffs at a minimum.

Why do you even bring up that Kent Hughes took over a cap strapped team when he hasn't had to dump any salaries. Instead he's actually been able to take on cap for assets in the past two years, he took over no cap issues.

We're also talking about a GM who took over a team with Caufield and Suzuki. He was also gifted a 1st overall without having done much of anything.

You're talking about hindsight, and i remember the years before Hughes took over and all the raving from Montreal fans over how they had the nr 1 prospect pool. Romanov was a bonafide star in the making and so on.

Mad talk.

 

[FissionFire]

I'm pretty small, thank you very much

There's this thing called the internet. You can use it to search things to avoid stating things factually incorrect

Can you provide a link to anything ranking Detroit as top 10 in 2019? I’ve googled for quite awhile and every ranking I’ve found has them between 15-20 except Pronman who has them at 13. I think maybe you are just pulling this top 10 ranking out of your ass.

 

[RRhoads]

Can you provide a link to anything ranking Detroit as top 10 in 2019? I’ve googled for quite awhile and every ranking I’ve found has them between 15-20 except Pronman who has them at 13. I think maybe you are just pulling this top 10 ranking out of your ass.

Here's one, although it is calling Veleno and Zadina "elite of of the elite".

NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2019-20, from 1 to 31 | Sporting News Canada

www.sportingnews.com

 

[McJedi]

How many games have you actually WATCHED?

You doubt you’ll find a single Wings fan who thinks Seider has regressed since his rookie season. Far from it.

He’s asked to play the hardest minutes in the NHL paired with some very bad players (Chiarot, Walman who’s only good offensively).

Listing Perron as a good player is hilarious, he’s a liability 5v5. Debrincat is a liability defensively and Raymond can really struggle attimes defensively as any young offensive forwarddoes


Who the hell had Detroit traded as a top 10 prospect pool in 2019? And what can you possibly mean it doesn’t matter that Zadina and Rasmussen ended up pretty terrible? Are you trying to suggest the Wings and Yzerman wouldn’t be in an entirely different situation had they had Hughes and Necas right now?

I see you’ve also once again ignored what you would have done differently to have them as both a playoff team now and have built a road to long term success?

Ok. So Seider, Raymond and DeBrincat all really suck defensively. Explains missing the playoffs yet again when very blah teams like NYI and Caps made it.

Seider just isn’t a top pair level guy. He’s decent offensively, but a below average defensive defender. His advanced stats don’t lie. He’s a liability in his own zone.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Ok. So Seider, Raymond and DeBrincat all really suck defensively. Explains missing the playoffs yet again when very blah teams like NYI and Caps made it.

Seider just isn’t a top pair level guy. He’s decent offensively, but a below average defensive defender. His advanced stats don’t lie. He’s a liability in his own zone.

Curious, Although you’ve already made this game abundantly clear… how many games have you actually WATCHED him play?

If you’re basing thing solely off of “advanced stats” where he plays the hardest minutes in the entire NHL, by a very large margin, and with terrible D partners then you’re one of the many loonies in this thread.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Here's one, although it is calling Veleno and Zadina "elite of of the elite".

NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2019-20, from 1 to 31 | Sporting News Canada

www.sportingnews.com

Calling Veleno and Zadina “elite of the elite” while in the same breath saying Seider was a questionable pick

 

[RRhoads]

Calling Veleno and Zadina “elite of the elite” while in the same breath saying Seider was a questionable pick

And it will be monitored for years

 

[Pavels Dog]

Who drafted him? Did I miss something?

Oh, I didn't think you cared about when or if a player was drafted. Considering you're comparing Games played between a 2018 drafted forward and a 2021 drafted defenseman as if it's a fair comparison.

4 years & 5 offseasons into it, with the situation he inherited... Making the playoffs at a minimum.

Shocked (not shocked) that you didn't respond at all to the comparison to where Tampa was at after 5 years.

Also shocked (not shocked) that losing a tiebreaker to miss the playoffs is in your eyes the straw that breaks the camel's back.

What's your opinion on Fitzgerald in New Jersey? Has been there almost as long as Yzerman (longer if you consider him being there as AGM) and they are worse despite vastly better starting position and lottery luck.
How about Buffalo? Ottawa? Minnesota? Are you holding them all to the 4-5 years until playoffs timetable?

Or is it just Yzerman, the only one starting without any superstars and still building the best team in the shortest time?

Calling Edvinsson a franchise defenseman today instead of a developing prospect is really out there.

Even the Raymond opinion is a bit of a homer opinion. Jordan Eberle and Alex DeBrincat are amongst players that produced more at his current age. Calling him a “franchise forward” today is optimistic. Especially coming off a high personal and team on ice shooting percentage.

Here's where forming opinions on more than stats is helpful. But sure, if Raymond regresses into a ~60 point player next season there should be significant doubt whether he's a true franchise guy or not.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Here's where forming opinions on more than stats is helpful. But sure, if Raymond regresses into a ~60 point player next season there should be significant doubt whether he's a true franchise guy or not.

Raymond has to improve upon finishing tied for 46th in points tied for 36th in goals in a season he plays a full 82 to be a "franchise forward", especially with the 9th highest shooting percentage in the league (6.4 % higher than his prior two combined years, which leads to an extra 10 goals). Not simply "not regress". Great hot streak to end the season, usually we look a little bit beyond that to make determinations like "franchise forward".

 

[Colezuki]

Why do you even bring up that Kent Hughes took over a cap strapped team when he hasn't had to dump any salaries. Instead he's actually been able to take on cap for assets in the past two years, he took over no cap issues.

We're also talking about a GM who took over a team with Caufield and Suzuki. He was also gifted a 1st overall without having done much of anything.

You're talking about hindsight, and i remember the years before Hughes took over and all the raving from Montreal fans over how they had the nr 1 prospect pool. Romanov was a bonafide star in the making and so on.

Mad talk.

Pardon me? In no particular order
1. Weber and Price's LTIR Contracts made the cap situation un workable literally we would've carried 8-10M of dead cap per season. Turned that into an expiring contract within one year.

2. Caufield in HuGo's 1st season scored 1 goal before Hughes/Gorton got hired and was being labelled a bust on these boards. They hire MSL and he's taken off since then, in fact any player who walks in says how MSL is one of the best coaches they've ever had and it's been alluded to by many insiders that players in the league are interested in playing for him.

3. Our analytics department didn't exist, they've literally stood up an entirely new department and drastically expanded another (development) with one of the best in the business running both of them. Since then we've seen consistent improvement in the quality and number of players being developed

4. you alluded to 1st overall, but they faced one of the more challenging 1st overall picks in recent memory and look like they've made the right call.

5. Traded from a position of strength (romanov) to address a position of weakness (Dach), has done this numerous times. Cap Space for monahan, Petry for Matheson,

The fanbase in Montreal is very supportive of HuGo right now because they have a vision, communicate clearly and make decisions that align to that vision

 

[TKB]

Pardon me? In no particular order
1. Weber and Price's LTIR Contracts made the cap situation un workable literally we would've carried 8-10M of dead cap per season. Turned that into an expiring contract within one year.

2. Caufield in HuGo's 1st season scored 1 goal before Hughes/Gorton got hired and was being labelled a bust on these boards. They hire MSL and he's taken off since then, in fact any player who walks in says how MSL is one of the best coaches they've ever had and it's been alluded to by many insiders that players in the league are interested in playing for him.

3. Our analytics department didn't exist, they've literally stood up an entirely new department and drastically expanded another (development) with one of the best in the business running both of them. Since then we've seen consistent improvement in the quality and number of players being developed

4. you alluded to 1st overall, but they faced one of the more challenging 1st overall picks in recent memory and look like they've made the right call.

5. Traded from a position of strength (romanov) to address a position of weakness (Dach), has done this numerous times. Cap Space for monahan, Petry for Matheson,

The fanbase in Montreal is very supportive of HuGo right now because they have a vision, communicate clearly and make decisions that align to that vision

Heres to reviving a great Red Wing - Habs rivalry in 2029.

Hopefully MSL is still coaching to ad some spice between him and SFY. Not that I would expect either of them to be anything but first class professionals, but the story lines would be great.

 

[Miller Time]

Can you provide a link to anything ranking Detroit as top 10 in 2019? I’ve googled for quite awhile and every ranking I’ve found has them between 15-20 except Pronman who has them at 13. I think maybe you are just pulling this top 10 ranking out of your ass.

Yzerman ran the 2019 draft, so it's 2018-19 ranking that he inherited

TSP: 2018 NHL Organizational Prospect Rankings Top 10

We complete our series with a look at the Top 10 NHL Organizational Prospect Rankings, Check out who takes the top spot in 2018.

lastwordonsports.com

9th

Pronman: 2018-19 NHL farm system rankings

With young talent the key to every NHL franchise, check out how each team's pool of prospects ranks and who are the stars of tomorrow.

theathletic.com

7th

NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2018-19, from 1 to 31 | Sporting News

www.sportingnews.com

10th


& So on and son

The cupboard was top tier, then add 2019 6OA, & 3 x 2nds (35, 54, 60)


It's silly and flat out false to suggest that Yzerman inherited anything less than a great prospect/draft capital situation

In hindsight that 2018-19 pool had many disappointments, but Zadina was every bit as good, if not a better prospect than the guys currently in the wings pool...

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don’t follow the AHL, but my concern is that Kasper will become another Veleno clone.

He had a better SHL season at 18 than Veleno had at 20-21. And a better AHL season at 19.

 

[Dotter]

Yzerman ran the 2019 draft, so it's 2018-19 ranking that he inherited

TSP: 2018 NHL Organizational Prospect Rankings Top 10

We complete our series with a look at the Top 10 NHL Organizational Prospect Rankings, Check out who takes the top spot in 2018.

lastwordonsports.com

9th

Pronman: 2018-19 NHL farm system rankings

With young talent the key to every NHL franchise, check out how each team's pool of prospects ranks and who are the stars of tomorrow.

theathletic.com

7th

NHL farm system rankings: Best, worst prospect pipelines for 2018-19, from 1 to 31 | Sporting News

www.sportingnews.com

10th


& So on and son

The cupboard was top tier, then add 2019 6OA, & 3 x 2nds (35, 54, 60)


It's silly and flat out false to suggest that Yzerman inherited anything less than a great prospect/draft capital situation

In hindsight that 2018-19 pool had many disappointments, but Zadina was every bit as good, if not a better prospect than the guys currently in the wings pool...

Yzerman had to scrap Holland's failed attempt at a desolate rebuild and start over. And start over he did. Look at all the assets in the system, some being franchise players... All without having a top 3 pick. That's incredible!

 

[ricky0034]

I like Edvinsson(and always have even when he was first drafted and half the Wings fans singing his praises now were wishing he was Eklund instead) and do think he could be a franchise player someday but not even Yzerman thinks he is one yet, otherwise he'd have played way more than 16 games in the NHL this year

 

[Magic Mittens]

Let's take a deeper dive and look at that...

1. Rasmussen #9 (Holland) = mid
2. Zadina #6 (Holland) = bust
3. Sider #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
4. Raymond #4 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise forward
5. Edvinsson #6 (Yzerman) = game breaking franchise dman
6. Kasper #8 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising
7. Danielson #9 (Yzerman) = still developing and looks promising

Not one top 3 pick on that list. Looks like Yzerman had to deal with Holland's mess in Detroit when he arrived. Then was a an absolute rockstar drafting his own top 10 guys. Nothing less than masterful!

Might be a bit over valuing your players a tad lol

Imo someone like Mcdavid and Mackinnon would be " game breaking franchise forwards " or Makar would be one you could call for a Dman.

The Wings do have a good up and coming team though!