What would you have done?

[TOGuy14]

I would have signed Comrie over Samsonov.

If you were really committed to Murray I would have held out until Ottawa retained more than 25%

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why waste energy calling him out on that when what follows is true and more important.

Except what was said after that is also false. He just got through effectively shutting down Tampa's top players in the playoffs. He's still reliable as a 2nd pairing defenseman, and he's still way, way, way closer to still being a top pairing defenseman than he is to being a bottom pairing defenseman. He's 33. He's not at the end of his career.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Fleury is going to be 38 next year, and was not good last year in the regular season or playoffs. He was also never an option, as he re-signed with his team before UFA.
Husso only has 64 career NHL games (regular season + playoffs), and while he had a good 40 games in the regular season this year, he had the worst GSAx in the league in the playoffs. He also costs more than Murray and would have cost a 3rd or more to acquire.

It is not fact that these two would have been better options.

Nah. Fact.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nah. Fact.

No, it's called an opinion. A badly supported one.

 

[Havoc]

Except what was said after that is also false. He just got through effectively shutting down Tampa's top players in the playoffs. He's still way, way, way closer to still being a top pairing defenseman than he is to being a bottom pairing defenseman.

That follows into noise category for me. I see the main point he was making even though the paths he takes to make a point are head scratchers (hence why waste energy countering him if you understand (And agree with) the point he is trying to make even though his support is wrong).

All we can do is move forward and look towards winning in 22/23 and Muzzin is a gamble for this year due to health and mileage concerns regardless whatever he did against Tampa in the past.

Edit: Gamble for the usage we need.

 

[Holymakinaw]

No, it's called an opinion. A badly supported one.

Nah.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

That follows into noise category for me. I see the main point he was making even though the paths he takes to make a point are head scratchers (hence why waste energy countering him if you understand (And agree with) the point he is trying to make even though his support is wrong).

All we can do is move forward and look towards winning in 22/23 and Muzzin is a gamble for this year due to health and mileage concerns regardless whatever he did against Tampa in the past.

Edit: Gamble for the usage we need.

lmao this sums up that guy to a tee.

You either disagree with his point and face palm all the false statements in his post, or you agree with his "thesis" but face palm how he tries to prove it.

I agree I would only care to call him out if it's the disagree/face palm combo. Let him off easy with the second combo.

 

[Mess]

Why waste energy calling him out on that when what follows is true and more important.

Muzzin is now in gamble category as a go-to guy on the backend everything else is just noise whether accurate or inaccurate.

That's the problem when they cling to every word and then miss the point entirely, unlike yourself.

Tampa Bay vs Toronto .. A tale of two teams Big Picture. Lets see what a proven contender does and what a pretender trying to beat them does.

Tampa Bay a team that almost completed a 3 peat for the Stanley Cup

- They take a core young player Mikhail Sergachev age 24 and sign him to an 8 year extension for $8.5 mil as core player.
- They trade away an aging 33 year old Ryan McDonagh making $6,750,000 and every bit or better than aging 33 year old Jake Muzzin, but also breaking down with age,
- They open a roster spot for former 1st round pick #14 OA in 2017 now 23 year old Cal Foote to replace Ryan McDonagh roster spot.
- The compete wheels keeps churning on.

The Toronto Maple Leafs a want-to-be Stanley Cup holder.

- They re-sign 28 year old Morgan Reilly a core piece to an 8 year extension for $7.5 mil
- They hold on tight to a 33 year old Jake Muzzin a player in decline due to age and injury history.
- They trade 2 X 2nds + 3rd (3 future top 90 picks ) to acquire 39 year old Mark Giodano at the twilight of his career and re-sign him for 2 years to play at age 40 to backup a play behind Muzzin.
- They block both for Cap and roster spot reasons their own former 1st round pick in 2018 of 22 year old Rasmus Sandin and his Leafs future now uncertain.
- The compete wheels are nearly falling off.

NOTE : The point of this post (in case some of those others miss it ) is the handling of a middle pairing aging Dman Jake Muzzin vs Ryan McDonagh..

Which team is positioning themselves well for the future and playing the long game despite present success, and which is playing the short game despite no playoff success and banking on Jake Muzzin is the same player that won the Cup 10 years ago in LA ,claiming he still that player today, claiming the Leafs window is wide open? Can't wait to play Tampa Bay again !!

PS. The Tampa Bay story and defense doesn't even include their Norris and Conn Smythe #1 Dman Hedman when discussing teams LHD.

 

[stealth1]

Are they honestly better than what the Leafs have now?

Unless you have a Shesterkin or a Vasi, they all have question marks. Personal preference doesn't mean better.

Yes all the goalies available had risk but Murray is the biggest risk of them all. He hasn't stayed healthy for awhile and is stats have been awful. You can't even blame that on who he played for as the goalie had better stats playing for the same team.

I get that @Dekes For Days and others are banking on him getting back to form and his past playoffs but that was a long time ago.

Betting on 2 goalies who haven't been that good and hoping one works out is not the way to go for a contender.

 

[Lexicon]

That's the problem when they cling to every word and then miss the point entirely, unlike yourself.

Tampa Bay vs Toronto .. A tale of two teams Big Picture. Lets see what a proven contender does and what a pretender trying to beat them does.

Tampa Bay a team that almost completed a 3 peat for the Stanley Cup

- They take a core young player Mikhail Sergachev age 24 and sign him to an 8 year extension for $8.5 mil as core player.
- They trade away an aging 33 year old Ryan McDonagh making $6,750,000 and every bit or better than aging 33 year old Jake Muzzin, but also breaking down with age,
- They open a roster spot for former 1st round pick #14 OA in 2017 now 23 year old Cal Foote to replace Ryan McDonagh roster spot.
- The compete wheels keeps churning on.

The Toronto Maple Leafs a want-to-be Stanley Cup holder.

- They re-sign 28 year old Morgan Reilly a core piece to an 8 year extension for $7.5 mil
- They hold on tight to a 33 year old Jake Muzzin a player in decline due to age and injury history.
- They trade 2 X 2nds + 3rd (3 future top 90 picks ) to acquire 39 year old Mark Giodano at the twilight of his career and re-sign him for 2 years to play at age 40 to backup a play behind Muzzin.
- They block both for Cap and roster spot reasons their own former 1st round pick in 2018 of 22 year old Rasmus Sandin and his Leafs future now uncertain.
- The compete wheels are nearly falling off.

NOTE : The point of this post (in case some of those others miss it ) is the handling of a middle pairing aging Dman Jake Muzzin vs Ryan McDonagh..

Which team is positioning themselves well for the future and playing the long game despite present success, and which is playing the short game despite no playoff success and banking on Jake Muzzin is the same player that won the Cup 10 years ago in LA ,claiming he still that player today, claiming the Leafs window is wide open? Can't wait to play Tampa Bay again !!

PS. The Tampa Bay story and defense doesn't even include their Norris and Conn Smythe #1 Dman Hedman when discussing teams LHD.

I agree with this.

 

[banks]

A team can't just sign any free agent they want. So who knows what options the Leafs really had. But there are lots of reasons to believe that Campbell would have signed the same deal with us that he got from Edmonton. I probably would have given that to him, rather than the Murray trade.

Other than that, I like the offseason. Jarnkrok is a good move. Dumping Mrazek wasn't too expensive. And I like the depth D that we'll have in the AHL with Benn and Mette.

I expect we'll make some similar depth signings for some AHL forwards with NHL experience. Someone like Dzingle, Turris, or Brassard.

 

[zeke]

That's the problem when they cling to every word and then miss the point entirely, unlike yourself.

Tampa Bay vs Toronto .. A tale of two teams Big Picture. Lets see what a proven contender does and what a pretender trying to beat them does.

Tampa Bay a team that almost completed a 3 peat for the Stanley Cup

- They take a core young player Mikhail Sergachev age 24 and sign him to an 8 year extension for $8.5 mil as core player.
- They trade away an aging 33 year old Ryan McDonagh making $6,750,000 and every bit or better than aging 33 year old Jake Muzzin, but also breaking down with age,
- They open a roster spot for former 1st round pick #14 OA in 2017 now 23 year old Cal Foote to replace Ryan McDonagh roster spot.
- The compete wheels keeps churning on.

The Toronto Maple Leafs a want-to-be Stanley Cup holder.

- They re-sign 28 year old Morgan Reilly a core piece to an 8 year extension for $7.5 mil
- They hold on tight to a 33 year old Jake Muzzin a player in decline due to age and injury history.
- They trade 2 X 2nds + 3rd (3 future top 90 picks ) to acquire 39 year old Mark Giodano at the twilight of his career and re-sign him for 2 years to play at age 40 to backup a play behind Muzzin.
- They block both for Cap and roster spot reasons their own former 1st round pick in 2018 of 22 year old Rasmus Sandin and his Leafs future now uncertain.
- The compete wheels are nearly falling off.

NOTE : The point of this post (in case some of those others miss it ) is the handling of a middle pairing aging Dman Jake Muzzin vs Ryan McDonagh..

Which team is positioning themselves well for the future and playing the long game despite present success, and which is playing the short game despite no playoff success and banking on Jake Muzzin is the same player that won the Cup 10 years ago in LA ,claiming he still that player today, claiming the Leafs window is wide open? Can't wait to play Tampa Bay again !!

PS. The Tampa Bay story and defense doesn't even include their Norris and Conn Smythe #1 Dman Hedman when discussing teams LHD.

Why are you praising TB for being forced into giving up their top usage #1 matchup shutdown dman for both Cup runs... for nothing?

 

[Dekes For Days]

That's the problem when they cling to every word and then miss the point entirely

The point wasn't missed. Your point was wrong. The words you used to get to your incorrect point were also wrong, and deserved to be corrected.

- They take a core young player Mikhail Sergachev age 24 and sign him to an 8 year extension for $8.5 mil as core player.
- They re-sign 28 year old Morgan Reilly a core piece to an 8 year extension for $7.5 mil

So Toronto re-signed our better core player for cheaper than Tampa signed their worse core player?

- They trade away an aging 33 year old Ryan McDonagh making $6,750,000 and every bit or better than aging 33 year old Jake Muzzin, but also breaking down with age,
- They hold on tight to a 33 year old Jake Muzzin a player in decline due to age and injury history.

More accurately, due to "cap hell", Tampa was forced to give away their top matchup defenseman for negative value, while due to effective cap management, Toronto was able to keep their top matchup defenseman.

- They open a roster spot for former 1st round pick #14 OA in 2017 now 23 year old Cal Foote to replace Ryan McDonagh roster spot.
- They block both for Cap and roster spot reasons their own former 1st round pick in 2018 of 22 year old Rasmus Sandin and his Leafs future now uncertain.

Tampa was already playing Cal Foote, and he's not very good, and certainly not going to step into McDonagh's spot. Toronto has two players on their defense that are younger and better in Liljegren and Sandin.

- They trade 2 X 2nds + 3rd (3 future top 90 picks to acquire 39 yearold Mark Giodano at the twilight of his career and re-sign him for 2 years to play at age 40 to backup a play behind Muzzin.

1. Those picks got us more than just Giordano.
2. You don't know if all of those picks will be top-90.
3. Giordano is not 39.
4. Giordano is still a good defenseman, and won a Norris a few years ago at an old age.

Both Toronto and Tampa added an older defenseman this offseason. Toronto added the superior one for 800k, and looks to be playing him in a lesser role. Tampa added the worse one for 3 million, and looks to be playing him in a bigger role to replace their departed top matchup defenseman.

- The compete wheels keeps churning on.
- The compete wheels are nearly falling off.

This is completely backwards. Toronto's compete wheels continue to churn, while Tampa's compete wheels are going flat.

NOTE : The point of this post (in case some of those others miss it) is the handling of a middle pairing aging Dman Jake Muzzin vs Ryan McDonagh..

Muzzin is still a very effective defenseman, and showed that when he helped shut down Tampa's stars in the most recent playoffs. Tampa does not deserve praise for being forced into losing an important core defenseman, and Toronto does not deserve scorn for being able to keep theirs.

PS. The Tampa Bay story and defense doesn't even include their Norris and Conn Smythe #1 Dman Hedman when discussing teams LHD.

Toronto was better defensively than Tampa last year, and that gap looks like it will only grow.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes all the goalies available had risk but Murray is the biggest risk of them all.

Except that's not true. Murray certainly has some risk, but pretty much all of the available goalies had a similar amount - some more.

He hasn't stayed healthy for awhile and is stats have been awful.

He's struggled with injuries recently (which look to be at least in part due to the way he was handled by medical staff), but his stats were not "awful" last year. He had a positive GSAx behind some of the worst defensive play in the league.

 

[stealth1]

Except that's not true. Murray certainly has some risk, but pretty much all of the available goalies had a similar amount - some more.

He's struggled with injuries recently (which look to be at least in part due to the way he was handled by medical staff), but his stats were not "awful" last year. He had a positive GSAx behind some of the worst defensive play in the league.

While he had a positive GSAx Forsberg had a much better one playing behind that same defense. Since you brought it up 3 of the goalies that were available had much better GSAx the Murray. Keumper, Comrie and Husso all had better GSAx then Murray. I would take Husso or Comrie over Murray any day. I know there is risks due to lack of games played but I would rather take a chance on them 2 over Murray who hasn't shown anything since his Pittsburgh days.

 

[Dekes For Days]

While he had a positive GSAx Forsberg had a much better one playing behind that same defense.

Ottawa played better in front of Forsberg than Murray, but yes, Forsberg did have a good year as well. Forsberg had a GSAx/60 of 0.198 and Murray had a GSAx/60 of 0.163. Forsberg doing well and Gustavsson and Sogaard doing bad doesn't change anything regarding Murray.

Since you brought it up 3 of the goalies that were available had much better GSAx the Murray. Keumper, Comrie and Husso all had better GSAx then Murray.

That's true. However, they all brought their own risks as well.

Kuemper was signed until he was 37, at a higher cost, and had the 2nd worst GSAx in the playoffs.
Husso has a grand total of 64 career NHL games (regular season + playoffs), he signed at a higher cost and longer term, cost a 3rd, and had the worst GSAx in the playoffs.
Comrie has a grand total of 28 career NHL games, has zero history as a starter, and has zero history in the playoffs.

 

[LeafEgo]

Husso's trajectory looks like this: /
And Murray's trajectory looks like this: \

Comrie's trajectory looks like this: /
And Sammys trajectory looks like this: __

A Husso/Comrie tandem probably has better odds of hitting next year.

 

[kb]

Husso's trajectory looks like this: /
And Murray's trajectory looks like this: \

Comrie's trajectory looks like this: /
And Sammys trajectory looks like this: __

A Husso/Comrie tandem probably has better odds of hitting next year.

What are those trajectories based on?

And more to the point, do goalies have trajectories? It's far more common for new goalies to come in 'hot' until the shooters figure them out. 28 games and being waived 5 times doesn't scream /

Husso lost his job in the playoffs.

 

[Holymakinaw]

That's the problem when they cling to every word and then miss the point entirely, unlike yourself.

Tampa Bay vs Toronto .. A tale of two teams Big Picture. Lets see what a proven contender does and what a pretender trying to beat them does.

Tampa Bay a team that almost completed a 3 peat for the Stanley Cup

- They take a core young player Mikhail Sergachev age 24 and sign him to an 8 year extension for $8.5 mil as core player.
- They trade away an aging 33 year old Ryan McDonagh making $6,750,000 and every bit or better than aging 33 year old Jake Muzzin, but also breaking down with age,
- They open a roster spot for former 1st round pick #14 OA in 2017 now 23 year old Cal Foote to replace Ryan McDonagh roster spot.
- The compete wheels keeps churning on.

The Toronto Maple Leafs a want-to-be Stanley Cup holder.

- They re-sign 28 year old Morgan Reilly a core piece to an 8 year extension for $7.5 mil
- They hold on tight to a 33 year old Jake Muzzin a player in decline due to age and injury history.
- They trade 2 X 2nds + 3rd (3 future top 90 picks ) to acquire 39 year old Mark Giodano at the twilight of his career and re-sign him for 2 years to play at age 40 to backup a play behind Muzzin.
- They block both for Cap and roster spot reasons their own former 1st round pick in 2018 of 22 year old Rasmus Sandin and his Leafs future now uncertain.
- The compete wheels are nearly falling off.

NOTE : The point of this post (in case some of those others miss it ) is the handling of a middle pairing aging Dman Jake Muzzin vs Ryan McDonagh..

Which team is positioning themselves well for the future and playing the long game despite present success, and which is playing the short game despite no playoff success and banking on Jake Muzzin is the same player that won the Cup 10 years ago in LA ,claiming he still that player today, claiming the Leafs window is wide open? Can't wait to play Tampa Bay again !!

PS. The Tampa Bay story and defense doesn't even include their Norris and Conn Smythe #1 Dman Hedman when discussing teams LHD.

Yes, I rather wish we'd move Muzzin and clear cap space and make room for Sandin in the lineup. Perhaps we will?

 

[Mess]

Yes, I rather wish we'd move Muzzin and clear cap space and make room for Sandin in the lineup. Perhaps we will?

"play the kids"

Sandin & Liljegren should have been Leafs locked in 3rd pairing this year.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Husso's trajectory looks like this: /
And Murray's trajectory looks like this: \

Comrie's trajectory looks like this: /
And Sammys trajectory looks like this: __

Not sure you can really pinpoint a trajectory based on 28 and 64 career games.

Also, if we were doing this, Murray's trajectory would be on the rise, not decline, as he just had his best season in a couple years.
And if we were including playoffs, Samsonov would be on the rise and Husso would be on the decline.

 

[zeke]

"play the kids"

Sandin & Liljegren should have been Leafs locked in 3rd pairing this year.

oh hey its the "play the kids" guy who hates leaving roster slots open for kids to play.

 

[2 Slick]

What would I have done? I don't know, I'm not competent enough to lay claim that I know more than an actual NHL general manager does. With that in mind, I wouldn't have acquired two goaltenders that don't know how to stop a puck, but that seems like a no-brainer to any hockey fan with half a brain. Beyond that? I don't know.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Yes, I rather wish we'd move Muzzin and clear cap space and make room for Sandin in the lineup. Perhaps we will?

I love Muzzin but the time is now
Even though this team will lose someone who knows how to go to war in the playoffs

So a year from now back to goaltending

 

[Racer88]

Ottawa played better in front of Forsberg than Murray, but yes, Forsberg did have a good year as well. Forsberg had a GSAx/60 of 0.198 and Murray had a GSAx/60 of 0.163. Forsberg doing well and Gustavsson and Sogaard doing bad doesn't change anything regarding Murray.

That's true. However, they all brought their own risks as well.

Kuemper was signed until he was 37, at a higher cost, and had the 2nd worst GSAx in the playoffs.
Husso has a grand total of 64 career NHL games (regular season + playoffs), he signed at a higher cost and longer term, cost a 3rd, and had the worst GSAx in the playoffs.
Comrie has a grand total of 28 career NHL games, has zero history as a starter, and has zero history in the playoffs.

So Ottawa played better in front of Forsberg and poorer in front of Murray. That kind of begs the question why. I think you might be reaching to defend Murray