What Roster changes do you make if Marner doesn't waive?

[HamiltonNHL]

He is a good kid who is always happy and truly wants to help his teams .. he plays Fortnight with my kid still

. he was never a fast A to B skater ever .. but he is top 3 in world in edgework which means he skate in a phone booth in either end of ice

.. where he has always had problems is when game gets played as an UP DOWN fast paced back and forth game through neutral zone .. these games typically occur in playoff hockey and he really can't contribute as much in those types of games except on D and even then he can't play net front due to his lack of strength

Summary: Complimentary winger 8AAV.

Ultimately he was a catastrophic Dubas overpay.

Mitch can take his Fortnite skills and show the world what he can do … on another team that isn’t desperate for D and G.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I don't see him as a victim but rather quite lucky to steal so much money from Shanny/Dubie .. he just lacks da necessary skills to compete in playoff hockey

I mean this in the nicest way Sir, but why do you make excuses for him like he's too small, too slow, etc? Can't he work on those things, to a point?

 

[Confucius]

I don't see him as a victim but rather quite lucky to steal so much money from Shanny/Dubie .. he just lacks da necessary skills to compete in playoff hockey

Yet somehow he put up more playoff points than anyone else since he’s been here, if we take away Mathews and Nylander I believe he has put up more points than everyone on the current roster added together, all of a sudden 11 million looks like a deal the rest of that roster has to total 40 million, lol!

 

[PROUD PAPA]

a D with upside like Power from Buff , or a pkg of futures like Wright/Seattle's 1st/quality D prospect from the Kraken , these are just off the top of my head so i don't need to get into an argument about exact value , i'm just giving you an rough idea of what i'd want back

Mitch is still fairly young , he's a 90 plus point play driving winger who's good defensively , i'm not giving him away without getting value back regardless if the alternative is we overpay to keep him .

Fairly reasonable but I expect some not so appealing short term salary to be included.

 

[ToneDog]

Yet somehow he put up more playoff points than anyone else since he’s been here, if we take away Mathews and Nylander I believe he has put up more points than everyone on the current roster added together, all of a sudden 11 million looks like a deal the rest of that roster has to total 40 million, lol!

Hyman has more goals in 15 games this year (13) than Marner (11) has in 9 playoff series (that is almost a decade). Goals are what are hard to come by in the playoffs my friend. See Verhaeghe, Leon, Reinhart, Johnston. 21 year old Wyatt Johnston has more playoff goals (12) in 2 playoffs than Marner has in 8. LOL. Think about that. A 21 year old kid earning 925K. Sure let's give Marner $100m more.

 

[Sypher04]

It strikes me as unlikely that Marner's agent will go for an 8 year deal with any team. I imagine they will try to mimic Matthews again and go for a shorter-term deal to ensure one more massive payday in 4 or 5 years.

I’m honestly not really sure that’s the strategy Matthews has employed. I mean, he’ll be in his early 30s by the time his next contract after the one just signed kicks in. That’s a real gamble if that was the idea. Even if the team at say almost 31 is willing to go 8 years, they’re gonna pay you squat in those late 30s years.

 

[Confucius]

Hyman has more goals in 15 games this year (13) than Marner (11) has in 9 playoff series (that is almost a decade). Goals are what are hard to come by in the playoffs my friend. See Verhaeghe, Leon, Reinhart, Johnston. 21 year old Wyatt Johnston has more playoff goals (12) in 2 playoffs than Marner has in 8. LOL. Think about that. A 21 year old kid earning 925K. Sure let's give Marner $100m more.

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You can’t do that, Hyman wasn’t playing on this team. There is a difference

 

[ToneDog]

You can’t do that, Hyman wasn’t playing on this team. There is a difference

Well that is what many are proposing Mitch does.

 

[Confucius]

Well that is what many are proposing Mitch does.

New coach is almost as good as a new team. To use your Hyman example he is used differently

 

[IPS]

New coach is almost as good as a new team. To use your Hyman example he is used differently

You're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment if you really think a new coach is change the culture of this team without any of the core 4 being traded.

 

[Confucius]

You're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment if you really think a new coach is change the culture of this team without any of the core 4 being traded.

Well I think mgmt sees it my way, otherwise there was zero sense to get rid of Keefe. I may be wrong but didn’t Keefe say he couldn’t get the guys motivated?

 

[Evilhomer]

I’m honestly not really sure that’s the strategy Matthews has employed. I mean, he’ll be in his early 30s by the time his next contract after the one just signed kicks in. That’s a real gamble if that was the idea. Even if the team at say almost 31 is willing to go 8 years, they’re gonna pay you squat in those late 30s years.

Maybe, but because of how much the cap will have risen by that time, in whole dollar terms even if he signs a shorter deal in 4 years it will still be more valuable than the last 4 years he could have gotten if he signed an 8 year deal now. It's the NBA approach of opting out of contract every two years because market prices have risen.

 

[IPS]

Well I think mgmt sees it my way, otherwise there was zero sense to get rid of Keefe. I may be wrong but didn’t Keefe say he couldn’t get the guys motivated?

What even is this reasoning?

There's been ample reason to get rid of Keefe since 2021. Just because this organization is years behind the moves that should actually be made you think it's some justification?

 

[Confucius]

What even is this reasoning?

There's been ample reason to get rid of Keefe since 2021. Just because this organization is years behind the moves that should actually be made you think it's some justification?

So fine now there is a new general, we will see if there is a change in player usage, attitude, game plan etc.

 

[IPS]

So fine now there is a new general, we will see if there is a change in player usage, attitude, game plan etc.

You seem to be mistaking a new coach for a magic bean stock. We've already done this same song and dance before and it didn't improve anything.

 

[Confucius]

You seem to be mistaking a new coach for a magic bean stalk. We've already done this same song and dance before and it didn't improve anything.

If you’re talking about Babcock it did improve. Never got better after he left and started to get worse. Coaching is a major change

 

[IPS]

If you’re talking about Babcock it did improve. Never got better after he left and started to get worse. Coaching is a major change

It got worse?

They failed in the playoffs with Babcock and they failed in the playoffs with Keefe too. It's not the f***ing coach, it's the core players. They've changed literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the team except the core 4 and Rielly since 2017 and it hasn't done anything to change the results.

You have to be so hopelessly ignorant to not see what the problem is.

 

[thusk]

It got worse?

They failed in the playoffs with Babcock and they failed in the playoffs with Keefe too. It's not the f***ing coach, it's the core players. They've changed literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the team except the core 4 and Rielly since 2017 and it hasn't done anything to change the results.

You have to be so hopelessly ignorant to not see what the problem is.

Under Babcock, on 1st year hunwick zaitsev, Polak, Marincin, carrick was leafs D outside of rielly a gardiner...

 

[Sypher04]

It got worse?

They failed in the playoffs with Babcock and they failed in the playoffs with Keefe too. It's not the f***ing coach, it's the core players. They've changed literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the team except the core 4 and Rielly since 2017 and it hasn't done anything to change the results.

You have to be so hopelessly ignorant to not see what the problem is.

It’s not either thing solely.
The first 2 years we made the playoffs under Babcock we were heavy underdogs. The third we were still underdogs but considered closer.

Based on the point of development in the team under each coach I think it’s fair to say the results may have been worse during Keefe’s tenure.

He was not THE problem, but his coaching absolutely has to be considered a factor in our disappointing playoff record.

There have been at least 3 contributing issues: (in no specific order)
1. Roster imbalance/depth
2. Core player underperformance
3. Coaching

 

[Confucius]

It got worse?

They failed in the playoffs with Babcock and they failed in the playoffs with Keefe too. It's not the f***ing coach, it's the core players. They've changed literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the team except the core 4 and Rielly since 2017 and it hasn't done anything to change the results.

You have to be so hopelessly ignorant to not see what the problem is.

So rude, lol! Not worth the time

 

[TMLAM34]

If you keep Marner, only one of Domi and Bertuzzi can stay for cap reasons. You also would need to try and find a pretty cheap second/third line center along with a winger for the Matthews line.

________ - Matthews - Domi
Knies - ________ - Nylander
McMann - Tavares - Marner

 

[57 Years No Cup]

It got worse?

They failed in the playoffs with Babcock and they failed in the playoffs with Keefe too. It's not the f***ing coach, it's the core players. They've changed literally EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on the team except the core 4 and Rielly since 2017 and it hasn't done anything to change the results.

You have to be so hopelessly purposefully ignorant to not see what the problem is.

Friendly edit.

 

[IPS]

It’s not either thing solely.
The first 2 years we made the playoffs under Babcock we were heavy underdogs. The third we were still underdogs but considered closer.

Based on the point of development in the team under each coach I think it’s fair to say the results may have been worse during Keefe’s tenure.

He was not THE problem, but his coaching absolutely has to be considered a factor in our disappointing playoff record.

There have been at least 3 contributing issues: (in no specific order)
1. Roster imbalance/depth
2. Core player underperformance
3. Coaching

I would be so much more open to this reasoning if the core did anything else but lay eggs in the playoffs. Like if Matthews and Marner had some Draisaitl or Mackinnon level playoff runs I could be totally open to the coach being the main problem. But they haven't, they've done the opposite.

It doesn't matter who the coach is, you can tell when players want to win. This core continually shows they're not interested in paying the price to win. It's the culture that's been created and permeated since the big paydays went out.

Regarding your #1 point, that's literally why we can't ice a properly balanced roster, it's only gonna get worse if we overpay Marner.

 

[nuck]

What changes can they make with no money? Beyond Walker or Roy in for Brodie maybe Stolarz or Brossoit in for Sammy. Thats kind of it. Can't afford to keep Bert or Boosh which won't kill them but they will need to replace them with something. Its bleak but with Sammy gone and Brodie out of the top 4 they can actually have a better year. But then 8 more years trying to build around zero value contracts. Run it back.

 

[Racer88]

You're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment if you really think a new coach is change the culture of this team without any of the core 4 being traded.

I’m betting the core 5 are already working in a plan to get Berube fired if he is mean to them and hold them accountable

Well I think mgmt sees it my way, otherwise there was zero sense to get rid of Keefe. I may be wrong but didn’t Keefe say he couldn’t get the guys motivated?

Management has also thought to run this same mess back for the last 8 years so I have little faith in them (Shanny the puppet master)