What Roster changes do you make if Marner doesn't waive?

[Stephen]

Have you heard anybody say a word about bringing the core back? That is the difference between this year and previous years. The experiment is over. I am very confident they will not be running it back this year. They would be insane if they did.

I feel like the era is over too and there’s a lot of emotional, personnel and contract wreckage to sort through. It all starts this summer but probably won’t be done till summer 2025.

 

[ToneDog]

I feel like the era is over too and there’s a lot of emotional, personnel and contract wreckage to sort through. It all starts this summer but probably won’t be done till summer 2025.

I'd give Tre GMOTY if he could right the ship this summer. I agree it will take more time.

 

[hotpaws]

Tavares was a two time Hart finalist, former 1st overall pick, 27 year old UFA who took less to play for Toronto. In order to sign as a UFA, he could only get a 7 year contract vs an 8 had he signed with Islander. The Sharks offered 13 million x7. Tavares left a substantialamount of money on the table to come to Toronto.

Marner literally fought and clawed and manipulated on his RFA contract in order to be overpaid. And his heartless, gritless play has made his contract only worse with age.

These two are not similar in any way whatsoever. One is greedy and selfish, the other generous and selfless

-1st overall pick means nothing to what he's being paid as a ufa
- 2 time Hart finalist , he was the only marquee name on that team and the league wanted to promote him that's why he was a finalist and not because he had such an outstanding year he deserved to be voted in the top 3
- we front loaded his deal as well as making it buy out proof since the majority of his salary was paid in bonuses , we also set him up with endorsements that he wouldn't have had in SJ

the facts are JT was just roughly a ppg player who never cracked 40g or 90 pts before he signed for the highest cap hit in the league

generous and selfless ? yeah sure i guess that's why he strung the Islanders along as a backup just in case he didn't get want he wanted in Tor

I get your complaints regarding Tavares but Mitch is all but gone. The Leafs are not paying him $12.5m per year. Period. End of story.

i'm all for trading any player if it makes our team better but if the option is paying Mitch 12m or making a bad trade i'd re-sign him

 

[Racer88]

does it really matter ?

my point is why are we holding Mitch to a different standard then Tavares ? for six years all i've heard is how Johnny did us a favor by coming here and singing for what was the highest cap hit in the NHL at that time so why are we now trying to run Mitch out of town when he just wants the same consideration this fan base accorded JT especially considering he's had a more productive career up to this point

Ok I understand you now and I agree. In my opinion I would like to see both of them gone especially Tavares and I would like to see Marner gone as well but if he is staying he needs to be at way less money. I also need to see more heart and effort and give a dam then we have seen. By that I don’t mean crying in the penalty box or throwing his glove but way more grit and determination for the puck in the ice. He should also work on his shot and how to throw a body check.
I don’t expect him to become a goon or a tough guy but my god he could become more involved in the game.
I’m guessing he is going to have a tough time with Berube

 

[hotpaws]

Ok I understand you now and I agree. In my opinion I would like to see both of them gone especially Tavares and I would like to see Marner gone as well but if he is staying he needs to be at way less money. I also need to see more heart and effort and give a dam then we have seen. By that I don’t mean crying in the penalty box or throwing his glove but way more grit and determination for the puck in the ice. He should also work on his shot and how to throw a body check.
I don’t expect him to become a goon or a tough guy but my god he could become more involved in the game.
I’m guessing he is going to have a tough time with Berube

I'd like to see Mitch play with more grit and take less but i can only see one of those things happening . I don't see him taking less than Willie but i do see him backing off from wanting to be paid like AM .

and maybe Berube can get him to play grittier especially since i see Tre trying to add tougher players which should help Mitch play bigger

if people want to see him traded that's fine but the return has to be there , just dumping him then using his part of his cap hit on guys like Lindholm/Marsh won't help advance this team

JT's the one that HAS to go and as i've already said he'll waive if the team informs him they won't offer him an extension and use him in a reduced role for his final year if he wants to stay

 

[ToneDog]

I'd like to see Mitch play with more grit and take less but i can only see one of those things happening . I don't see him taking less than Willie but i do see him backing off from wanting to be paid like AM .

and maybe Berube can get him to play grittier especially since i see Tre trying to add tougher players which should help Mitch play bigger

if people want to see him traded that's fine but the return has to be there , just dumping him then using his part of his cap hit on guys like Lindholm/Marsh won't help advance this team

JT's the one that HAS to go and as i've already said he'll waive if the team informs him they won't offer him an extension and use him in a reduced role for his final year if he wants to stay

JT is staying. The team will not ask a guy who came home and their captain to waive and I am not gambling Nylander+ money to see if he can figure it out. He needs to be gone from our PP and team.

If you paid for a Ferrari but got a Lexus, would you buy the same car a second time?

 

[IPS]

So when Kucherov signed his last contract, it was about 11.73% of the current cap at that time, making $9.5M.

If the cap is gonna go to $92M in 2025-2026, when Mitch would officially be playing on his new contract, if he was to play under a deal that gave him 11.73% of the cap - it would be $10.74M. Less than the current money he is making right now, with the cap $15M higher than when Kucherov signed his contract.

Really take a second and marvel at just how insanely overpaid Dubas made Marner. $12.5M is complete lunacy and he should be laughed out of the room for that demand. Looking at the grand picture, he literally shouldn't even be getting what he is now, if he was going into UFA.

 

[notbias]

So when Kucherov signed his last contract, it was about 11.73% of the current cap at that time, making $9.5M.

If the cap is gonna go to $92M in 2025-2026, when Mitch would officially be playing on his new contract, if he was to play under a deal that gave him 11.73% of the cap - it would be $10.74M. Less than the current money he is making right now, with the cap $15M higher than when Kucherov signed his contract.

Really take a second and marvel at just how insanely overpaid Dubas made Marner. $12.5M is complete lunacy and he should be laughed out of the room for that demand. Looking at the grand picture, he literally shouldn't even be getting what he is now, if he was going into UFA.

Panarin is a better comparable and that would be $13.2 million.

You can find random contracts for either side of the argument.

 

[IPS]

Panarin is a better comparable and that would be $13.2 million.

You can find random contracts for either side of the argument.

Actually you can find precisely 1 contract for either side of the argument, the one you listed.

The rest of the comparisons have scoring wingers in a much lower % range of the cap.

If we wanna decide what's arbitrarily a "better comparable" I'm gonna pick Gaudreau, then, who signed for 11.82%. It's actually a better and more recent comparable too.

 

[notbias]

Actually you can find precisely 1 contract for either side of the argument, the one you listed.

The rest of the comparisons have scoring wingers in a much lower % range of the cap.

Marner is a scoring winger with Selke votes, who else fits that?

I can find worse wingers making less as a UFA and Kucherov.

Our own GM just set Marner's floor with the Nylander contract.

 

[IPS]

Our own GM just set Marner's floor with the Nylander contract.

yeah and it was pretty bad and stupid, you can look back at my posts criticizing him if you like. so let's not make the same mistake twice.

 

[Evilhomer]

Hard to get a read on what Marner Camp’s position will be. The last round was based around the idea that “anything Auston gets we deserve it too” but it seems fairly self evident that Marner’s fallen out of favour in Leafs Land so you can’t apply the same pressure points.

Does he come across as a “bet on myself” kind of player? Doesn’t feel that way to me.

I don't think there is any certainty with this situation. I feel like the Leafs are as likely to resign Marner as they are to trade. I keep coming back to whether upper management is risk-tolerant enough to make that kind of trade.

 

[hotpaws]

JT is staying. The team will not ask a guy who came home and their captain to waive and I am not gambling Nylander+ money to see if he can figure it out. He needs to be gone from our PP and team.

If you paid for a Ferrari but got a Lexus, would you buy the same car a second time?

''JT is staying'' is that a threat ? do we also owe him an extension with a story how even though the 7m x 4yrs may seem like another huge overpayment it's really a discount because we got one of our company paid insiders to spread a rumor some team was willing to give him 10m x 5yrs ?

i'd rather pay for a Ferrari but get a Lexus then use the Farrari money for 2 Camry's but get 2 Sentra's

and i don't understand how someone would want to dump MM but then turn around and make excuses that we have to keep JT , it's truly strange since we can also pull out the violins for a home town kid who wants to commit to his home town team like Mitch does

 

[BrannigansLaw]

We should have taken the 4 firsts and ran

We f***ed up bad.

 

[Trapper]

yeah and it was pretty bad and stupid, you can look back at my posts criticizing him if you like. so let's not make the same mistake twice.

You’re asking a lot for a team that is on the verge of running it back for the 9th time.
Twice? They do that in their sleep.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Hard to get a read on what Marner Camp’s position will be. The last round was based around the idea that “anything Auston gets we deserve it too” but it seems fairly self evident that Marner’s fallen out of favour in Leafs Land so you can’t apply the same pressure points.

Does he come across as a “bet on myself” kind of player? Doesn’t feel that way to me.

If you want the "Marner Camp's' position all you need to do is read the Marner threads. There's several of them here.

 

[notDatsyuk]

does it really matter ?

my point is why are we holding Mitch to a different standard then Tavares ? for six years all i've heard is how Johnny did us a favor by coming here and singing for what was the highest cap hit in the NHL at that time so why are we now trying to run Mitch out of town when he just wants the same consideration this fan base accorded JT especially considering he's had a more productive career up to this point

Maybe you should have your hearing checked. There have been a number of posters pointing out that the signing of Tavares (not him but the high cap hit) was the start of all the problems. I don't think either has been particularly productive, but at least JT was a first overall pick, a Hart finalist, and a centre.

Or maybe we've just figured out that overpaying too many forwards doesn't work, and since we've already extended the two best, we need to drop the other two.

 

[Stephen]

I don't think there is any certainty with this situation. I feel like the Leafs are as likely to resign Marner as they are to trade. I keep coming back to whether upper management is risk-tolerant enough to make that kind of trade.

You’re not wrong. The period between the Leafs getting eliminated to the cup getting handed out are the most emotional, negative and toxic times when we want to throw everything and Marner out. But by the time the offseason rolls around it calms down. And this flawed, underachiever core is typically good for a 100 plus point, fairly competitive and marketable preseason and regular season, which takes up 8 months of the year…

So a risk averse management that keeps being lulled into the potential of the talent here could take a step back from the brink and re-sign Marner. You never know. But my preference is to take a step or two back so we can progress many steps forward in a radically new direction.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner is a scoring winger with Selke votes, who else fits that?

I can find worse wingers making less as a UFA and Kucherov.

Our own GM just set Marner's floor with the Nylander contract.

Considering how they have played in recent years, particularly in the playoffs, Nylander's contract is the ceiling, not the floor.

 

[ToneDog]

''JT is staying'' is that a threat ? do we also owe him an extension with a story how even though the 7m x 4yrs may seem like another over huge payment it's really a discount because we got one of our company paid insiders to spread a rumor some team was willing to give him 10m x 5yrs ?

i'd rather pay for a Ferrari but get a Lexus then use the Farrari money for 2 Camry's but get 2 Sentra's

and i don't understand how someone would want to dump MM but then turn around and make excuses that we have to keep JT , it's truly strange since we can also pull out the violins for a home town kid who wants to commit to his home town team like Mitch does

Your desire to get rid of Tavares is clouding your judgement when it comes to Marner. I would rather move off both but II think they will resign Tavares for a team friendly number.

 

[notDatsyuk]

''JT is staying'' is that a threat ? do we also owe him an extension with a story how even though the 7m x 4yrs may seem like another over huge payment it's really a discount because we got one of our company paid insiders to spread a rumor some team was willing to give him 10m x 5yrs ?

i'd rather pay for a Ferrari but get a Lexus then use the Farrari money for 2 Camry's but get 2 Sentra's

and i don't understand how someone would want to dump MM but then turn around and make excuses that we have to keep JT , it's truly strange since we can also pull out the violins for a home town kid who wants to commit to his home town team like Mitch does

I don't think they are making excuses for keeping JT, so much as accepting the fact that with his current contract it would cost too much to get rid of him. "Cheaper to keep her" as the song goes.

As for an extension, JT at $3M for a couple of seasons (which I don't want anyway) is a lot different than Mitch at even $11 for 7 or 8.

 

[ToneDog]

I don't think they are making excuses for keeping JT, so much as accepting the fact that with his current contract it would cost too much to get rid of him. "Cheaper to keep her" as the song goes.

As for an extension, JT at $3M for a couple of seasons (which I don't want anyway) is a lot different than Mitch at even $11 for 7 or 8.

If Tavares can put up 20 goals and 50 points for 3m, that would be a win but if you (not you cause you get it) want to get rid of him at all costs, you won't be happy.

 

[IPS]

If Tavares can put up 20 goals and 50 points for 3m, that would be a win but if you (not you cause you get it) want to get rid of him at all costs, you won't be happy.

Tavares at 3M is fine with me, hell give him a NMC too. Take the captaincy away and put him in a reduced role that suits his pay and it's not a problem at all.

Mitch at his rumored demands his a disaster that will sink the Leafs without question. Look at all the cap structures around the league, nobody is paying more than 1 winger a super high salary.

 

[hotpaws]

Your desire to get rid of Tavares is clouding your judgement when it comes to Marner. I would rather move off both but II think they will resign Tavares for a team friendly number.

i'm thinking much clearer than most on this topic , i'm just not blinded by anger and looking to target someone for revenge over another failed season

The single biggest issue on this team right now is Tavares chewing up 11m in cap , that problem isn't solved by hoping a consistent 90 plus point player waives so we can trade him for pennies on the dollar . Oh but he's he's crap in the playoffs yet JT has always been worse yet people keep screaming he gave us a discount at 11m per and were thrilled we signed him and now people still want to re-sign him regardless of how poor he's been in the post season . Truly remarkable how obsessed people are with keeping JT on the Leafs even though he's destroyed our window the last 6yrs .

 

[hotpaws]

I don't think they are making excuses for keeping JT, so much as accepting the fact that with his current contract it would cost too much to get rid of him. "Cheaper to keep her" as the song goes.

As for an extension, JT at $3M for a couple of seasons (which I don't want anyway) is a lot different than Mitch at even $11 for 7 or 8.

no excuses you say

-keep him because he would cost too much to trade and oh lets re-sign him while we're at it
-keep him because he did us a favor for coming home and only signing for the highest salary in the league
-keep him because if we ask him to waive no other ufa's will sign with us

these are just a few and the list keeps growing , lol