What happened to Brodeur's legacy?

[Brodeur]

I don't see the point of comparing older generation goalies who wore a facemask that barely helped or nothing at all and were mostly all stand up goalies. to goalies that have a cage and play using there whole body and treat their body like a temple (mostly) The dressing rooms down smell like smoke like they used to.

The game is so different between generations its like trying to compare cricket players with baseball players.

Just for an excuse to geek out about gear, I have a pair of Brodeur pro return 2001-03 era CCM Heaton 10 pads. Those things are so clunky compared to the my mid-level 2012 Vaughn V5's. I bought a pair of 2020 Vaughn V9's from former USNTDP goalie Dylan Silverstein and the strapping is so minimal/optimized now.

 

[CamPopplestone]

He's in my top 3 behind Hasek and Roy still. But I can't really fairly rank guys like Sawchuk since you know, never saw them play, and highlights and such just aren't the same.

But I do think what puts Brodeur so high for me is that combination of innovation in the position, and pure longevity. How long he played at such a strong level is a big factor for me personally, especially that he was good into the cap era. He was still really good until 2010, and passable through 2012. Him playing longer while he declined doesn't really hurt him for me. I think it's silly to knock a players entire career for that.

 

[Golden_Jet]

having read your posts before, you know better than this. one of the reasons marty’s SA was so low is 1) as you mentioned, he had some great defensemen over the years and 2) he was the greatest puck handler in league history. he completely changed the way teams forechecked as he rendered the standard dump and chase ineffective. they painted brand new lines on the ice to prevent him from being as effective.

you’re making it seem like he wouldn’t have been regarded as a top all time goalie if he faced 5 shots more per game. you’re also making it seem like facing fewer shots on net is always beneficial for goalies, which is not necessarily true.

i haven’t read through the whole thread, so my apologies if i’m mischaracterizing your point.

Turco was better with the puck.

 

[RebuildinVan]

Until I saw this thread I honestly didnt know anything happened to his legacy, still top 5 all time.... I cant see anyone taking out Hasek and Roy at 1 and 2

 

[RANDOMH3RO]

Brodeur is a player I won’t even considering arguing about how he’s perceived anymore. His legacy is completely safe because it speaks for itself. There will never be a goalie more important to a franchise than Brodeur was to the devils. The cups, the vezinas, the amount of games played, the wins. Is the perception of him being rated anywhere from 3rd-5th or 6th wildly different? It seems reasonable to me.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Brodeur was the complete package. If it called for him to stand up (not like these modern day goalies who drop at the hint of a shot) he did, if he had to get down in the butterfly, he did that too, and he actually changed the game and had the rules changed where a goalie can play the puck.

He's easily number 1 for me, and every goaltender had a bad moment or 2 or 3 or 100.

It's not his fault he played more games. It's also not his fault he made routine plays look routine because, they were.

He was cocky, but he was also good and backed it up.

I'll take the guy who can play what seems like entire seasons and have a prolong career. That's not luck.

Playing 20,000/30,000 more minutes over your closest piers is something.

 

[Sniper99]

4 Vezinas, 3 Stanley Cups. 1st all time in Career Wins by a landslide. Starting Goaltender on the 2002 Gold Medal winning team. I'd say his legacy is doing just fine, regardless of anyone's idiosyncratic "ranking"

Thank you! This man gets it. "yeah but he played on a team that used the trap" Not his problem

Not a great person.

didnt sign your puck as a kid?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Thank you! This man gets it. "yeah but he played on a team that used the trap" Not his problem


didnt sign your puck as a kid?

No a cheater off the ice.

 

[PaulD]

yeah, marty was a douche. he should’ve stuck to DUI’s like belfour, domestic violence like roy, racism like vanbiesbrouck, etc.

or cheeseburgers like Subban and Brett Hull

 

[MartyOwns]

Turco was better with the puck.

disagree, but irrelevant to the point anyway

 

[Sniper99]

No a cheater off the ice.

that affected you how? I didnt know about this until now. I dont think im gonna lose sleep about this either. Its none of my business what happens off the ice.

 

[pnep]

I believe records show the devils stats guy was a notorious shots under counter, which skewed the shots against lower at home. This has been shown looking at the home and road stats in brodeur’s prime years and would likely have at least some effect on his save percentage.

 

[PaulD]

Context matters, his longevity was impressive regardless, but I think there is a lot of truth in saying that he benefited a ton from having such a great defensive team in front of him for the majority of his career.

right goalie for right team

but could have won cups with Aves or Wings at thst time too. He was that good.

I don't see the point of comparing older generation goalies who wore a facemask that barely helped or nothing at all and were mostly all stand up goalies. to goalies that have a cage and play using there whole body and treat their body like a temple (mostly) The dressing rooms down smell like smoke like they used to.

The game is so different between generations its like trying to compare cricket players with baseball players.

no it isn't......not at all.

 

[Dulind]

He's always been in my top 3 - Hasek is number 1 and Brodeur is in a slugging match with Roy for #2.

 

[Doctor No]

I don't see the point of comparing older generation goalies who wore a facemask that barely helped or nothing at all and were mostly all stand up goalies. to goalies that have a cage and play using there whole body and treat their body like a temple (mostly) The dressing rooms down smell like smoke like they used to.

The game is so different between generations its like trying to compare cricket players with baseball players.

I can't stop you from feeling this way (even though your statement makes me believe that you've never watched cricket, or perhaps baseball, or perhaps both). However...

If you're going to rank people this way, the onus is on you to say that "these are my top N players" SINCE 1980 (or whenever), and you have to say it every time. Because otherwise, if you say "of all time", people are going to assume that you mean "of all time".

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Weird you would use the minimum number of teams for Plante And the maximum for Brodeur. Classic cherry pick.

If using minimums then Marty , 21 teams.

You mean using the number of teams in the league they had for the vast majority of their careers?

 

[Ace36758]

Great find. Looks like the devils differentials were not all that much more than league average (and less I some instances) in some years during brodeur’s prime, but in others there was a huge difference. I guess it makes sense that teams surrender less shots at home on average given the slight advantage it provides.

 

[Felidae]

Here's my thing with Brodeur.

Looking at his individual sv% placements. He doesn't come away looking better than the likes of Luongo, JVR, Belfour, etc. But you don't find anyone ranking these guys ahead.

Is his puckhandling so great that he ranks so clearly ahead of these guys, and is in the conversation with goaltenders like Plante, Sawchuk, etc.?

How do you even quantify the effect his puckhandling had? Would be really interesting to see any data that could measure it to some degree, or at least hint at it. And no, wins don't count.

 

[Ducks4Cup]

So did Roy and Hasek. So did Plante and Hall. So did Sawchuk, Dryden and Tretiak for that matter.

So did Roy and Hasek. So did Plante and Hall. So did Sawchuk, Dryden and Tretiak for that matter.

They didn’t change the rule book and the freakin lines on the ice for any of those guys.
I don’t get how people diminish MB30 when he’s the only goalie they changed the game for EVERYONE because of his greatness.
I’m convinced this thread is driven by Brodeur haters (looking at you rangers fans)

 

[Brodeur]

Here's my thing with Brodeur.

Looking at his individual sv% placements. He doesn't come away looking better than the likes of Luongo, JVR, Belfour, etc. But you don't find anyone ranking these guys ahead.

Is his puckhandling so great that he ranks so clearly ahead of these guys, and is in the conversation with goaltenders like Plante, Sawchuk, etc.?

How do you even quantify the effect his puckhandling had? Would be really interesting to see any data that could measure it to some degree, or at least hint at it. And no, wins don't count.

Yeah the puckhandling component is difficult to quantify. The main thing for me was that Devils tended to be one of the least penalized teams in the league during the Brodeur era. Hypothetically Brodeur handled the puck which helped diffuse forechecks which meant less time in the defensive zone thus fewer penalties.

1992-93: 425 times shorthanded (7/24) - median (437)
1993-94: 376 times shorthanded (3/26) - median (403) -- Brodeur rookie year, split with Terreri
1994-95: 149 times shorthanded (1/26) - median (208)
1995-96: 319 times shorthanded (1/26) - median (417)
1996-97: 235 times shorthanded (1/26) - median (339)
1997-98: 309 times shorthanded (3/26) - median (384)
1998-99: 325 times shorthanded (5/27) - median (353)
1999-00: 313 times shorthanded (11/28) - median (322)
2000-01; 320 times shorthanded (2/30) - median (378)
2001-02: 265 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (343)
2002-03: 264 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (359)
2003-04: 266 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (349)
-- lockout, Stevens retires, Niedermayer leaves
2005-06: 348 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (481)
2006-07: 271 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (410)
2007-08: 314 times shorthanded (5/30) - median (354)
2008-09: 324 times shorthanded (9/30) - median (338) -- Brodeur injury, missed a couple months
2009-10: 239 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (306) -- final workhorse season
2010-11: 241 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (294)
2011-12: 259 times shorthanded (10/30) - median (270)
2012-13: 169 times shorthanded (22/30) - median (161)
2013-14: 264 times shorthanded (13/30) - median (268) -- split with Schneider
-- Devils don't re-sign Brodeur
2014-15: 268 times shorthanded (24/30) - median (257)
2015-16: 264 times shorthanded (20/30) - median (256)
2016-17: 260 times shorthanded (22/30) - median (246)
2017-18: 258 times shorthanded (17/31) - median (247)
2018-19: 255 times shorthanded (26/31) - median (239)
2019-20: 221 times shorthanded (24/31) - median (210)

At his best, the Devils yielded a considerable lower amount of PPs. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say if you give up fewer PPs you'll give up fewer goals over the course of a season. In an earlier post I outlined the blue lines that the Devils had post-lockout and many years it was average at best.

So for me, that was the hidden value of a guy like Brodeur. Some will insist that it was part of a mythical "system" that only the Devils ran and Brodeur was somehow a passenger rather than a contributor.

As I said in an earlier post, there were better goalies at stopping pucks than Brodeur. Marty was like the missing link between the standup goalies of the 80's and the more efficient butterfly goalies of the late 90's/00's. Late in his career, Marty adopted more of a butterfly style. Somebody like Sean Burke completely reinvented his style in the 90's to adapt.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Yeah the puckhandling component is difficult to quantify. The main thing for me was that Devils tended to be one of the least penalized teams in the league during the Brodeur era. Hypothetically Brodeur handled the puck which helped diffuse forechecks which meant less time in the defensive zone thus fewer penalties.

1992-93: 425 times shorthanded (7/24) - median (437)
1993-94: 376 times shorthanded (3/26) - median (403) -- Brodeur rookie year, split with Terreri
1994-95: 149 times shorthanded (1/26) - median (208)
1995-96: 319 times shorthanded (1/26) - median (417)
1996-97: 235 times shorthanded (1/26) - median (339)
1997-98: 309 times shorthanded (3/26) - median (384)
1998-99: 325 times shorthanded (5/27) - median (353)
1999-00: 313 times shorthanded (11/28) - median (322)
2000-01; 320 times shorthanded (2/30) - median (378)
2001-02: 265 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (343)
2002-03: 264 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (359)
2003-04: 266 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (349)
-- lockout, Stevens retires, Niedermayer leaves
2005-06: 348 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (481)
2006-07: 271 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (410)
2007-08: 314 times shorthanded (5/30) - median (354)
2008-09: 324 times shorthanded (9/30) - median (338) -- Brodeur injury, missed a couple months
2009-10: 239 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (306) -- final workhorse season
2010-11: 241 times shorthanded (1/30) - median (294)
2011-12: 259 times shorthanded (10/30) - median (270)
2012-13: 169 times shorthanded (22/30) - median (161)
2013-14: 264 times shorthanded (13/30) - median (268) -- split with Schneider
-- Devils don't re-sign Brodeur
2014-15: 268 times shorthanded (24/30) - median (257)
2015-16: 264 times shorthanded (20/30) - median (256)
2016-17: 260 times shorthanded (22/30) - median (246)
2017-18: 258 times shorthanded (17/31) - median (247)
2018-19: 255 times shorthanded (26/31) - median (239)
2019-20: 221 times shorthanded (24/31) - median (210)

At his best, the Devils yielded a considerable lower amount of PPs. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say if you give up fewer PPs you'll give up fewer goals over the course of a season. In an earlier post I outlined the blue lines that the Devils had post-lockout and many years it was average at best.

So for me, that was the hidden value of a guy like Brodeur. Some will insist that it was part of a mythical "system" that only the Devils ran and Brodeur was somehow a passenger rather than a contributor.

As I said in an earlier post, there were better goalies at stopping pucks than Brodeur. Marty was like the missing link between the standup goalies of the 80's and the more efficient butterfly goalies of the late 90's/00's. Late in his career, Marty adopted more of a butterfly style. Somebody like Sean Burke completely reinvented his style in the 90's to adapt.

Not saying it's impossible, but crediting a team's penalty rate to their goalie seems like a stretch.

 

[eco's bones]

Not all the best goalies happened in the same small window of time.

Ken Dryden for one---played 7 + NHL seasons won 6 Stanley Cups and 5 Vezina Trophies. It could be argued he was the best goalie ever. That said there are few if any here who have seen any goalies out of the 30's, 40's, 50's and even 60's. These best ever claims are almost always pretty suspect. Might be better to say best this or that from post expansion or the 70's on.

 

[Brodeur]

Not saying it's impossible, but crediting a team's penalty rate to their goalie seems like a stretch.

Marty was the common denominator throughout those years, so it seems a bit cynical to not give him some of the credit. Like I said earlier, some of the post-lockout Devils blue lines were rather forgettable but some folks act as though he always played behind a phalanx of All-Star D.

'Tender Touches: An attempt to measure Martin Brodeur's puckhandling impact

When asked to speak on the status of traditional and advanced hockey statistics at the recent Analytics, Big Data, and the Cloud conference here in Edmonton, I gave…

edmontonjournal.com

Here was an article from the 2012 playoffs which made some of the same observations. Notably that Brodeur had the lowest save percentage of the remaining goalies in the Conference Final but was contributing in other ways.

A casual observer might look at the series and see an average shot count of 33-27 New Jersey and an average score of 3-2 New Jersey and conclude, correctly, that the better team had won the series. But Brodeur’s contribution as part of that team is surely understated. Possible influences include:

— Shot suppression. Very difficult to count shots that don’t happen, of course, which they generally don’t when the defensive team has the puck under control and moving in the right direction. The Contrarian Goaltender attempted to quantify this statistically a few years back, and while I think his conclusions are on the conservative side (that’s me in the comments sections!) the arrows certainly point in a logical direction.

— Positive flow. See above. The puck moving up and out of the zone is moving forward, and will often result in a offensive zone possession / shot opportunity. Also difficult to enumerate, although I’ll bet Brodeur would have a good Neilson Number!

— Penalty prevention. Speculative, but a defence assigned a simpler task due to the reliable sweeper behind them seems less apt to be caught in an emergency situation. New Jersey has a long-standing reputation as a disciplined team that stays out of the box.

— Injury reduction. Glenn Healy hammered on this point throughout the series, and it’s a good one. In at least two games in the series, Healy spoke of defencemen avoiding wear and tear while running sequential clips of the very plays I had been analyzing, showing Devils players receiving the puck with time and space to move it rather than having their faces pressed to the glass. While the impact in terms of actual injuries is utterly speculative, of course, logic dictates a small advantage must accrue to the team with the “third defenceman”.

— Affect opposition strategy. The soft shoot-around didn’t work at all for Philly. When they did try it the puck was coming right back at them. At times it limited their options as to zone-entry strategies.

— Affect own-team strategy. This is a big one. New Jersey has had the reputation as a solid defensive team for the entirety of Brodeur’s career. Some guys get all the luck, eh. Brodeur’s abilities as a sweeper have surely helped not only with zone-exit play but with the team’s defensive structures, such as Jacques Lemaire’s old plan of lining up four guys across the blueline and daring the other guys to shoot it in and beat them to it. Heck, even the trapezoid that was instituded [sic] post-lockout to limit the impact of highly-skilled goalies has been widely referred to as the Brodeur Rule.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

No a cheater off the ice.

They can’t all be Mark Messier.

 

[MartyOwns]

Not all the best goalies happened in the same small window of time.

Ken Dryden for one---played 7 + NHL seasons won 6 Stanley Cups and 5 Vezina Trophies. It could be argued he was the best goalie ever. That said there are few if any here who have seen any goalies out of the 30's, 40's, 50's and even 60's. These best ever claims are almost always pretty suspect. Might be better to say best this or that from post expansion or the 70's on.

are you saying if you dropped prime dryden into marty’s active years he would’ve been just as good? he’d get smoked every night. same with sawchuk or plante or most of those guys who have been mentioned in here. let’s stop pretending you can compare goalies who played 30-50 years apart, it’s not fair to the tendies being compared.

marty was one of the best of his generation along with hasek and roy, and you could make the case for each one being the best.