What happened to Brodeur's legacy?

[blundluntman]

They didn’t change the rule book and the freakin lines on the ice for any of those guys.
I don’t get how people diminish MB30 when he’s the only goalie they changed the game for EVERYONE because of his greatness.
I’m convinced this thread is driven by Brodeur haters (looking at you rangers fans)

I'm sorry but changing the lines at the back of the net isn't as profound as you think it is. Introducing the mask and popularizing the butterfly position had far more of an impact on goalies than changing one of the few things that only a small handful of goalies bothered to do in the first place. Not considering him to automatically be top 3 over players that have sound arguments for the spot isn't being a hater

 

[The Tourist]

are you saying if you dropped prime dryden into marty’s active years he would’ve been just as good? he’d get smoked every night. same with sawchuk or plante or most of those guys who have been mentioned in here. let’s stop pretending you can compare goalies who played 30-50 years apart, it’s not fair to the tendies being compared.

marty was one of the best of his generation along with hasek and roy, and you could make the case for each one being the best.

You don't think a prime Dryden with modern equipment, modernized nutrition/training, and modernized recovery could play in the 90's NHL? Dryden was 6'4 200+ lbs and retired after the 78/79 season. Brodeur joined the NHL in 1991. Do you really think the evolution of the human body changed drastically in 12 years? That's like saying someone who last played in 2010 couldn't play in the NHL next season because human evolution has become so drastically different. The only thing that changes in 12 years is the equipment, training, nutrition, medicine, recovery methods, and the system on the ice. Talent is talent, regardless of era.


All things equal, the best players of 50 years ago could play today. Just like all things equal, the best player today could play 50 years ago. Unless you're planning on forcing Sawchuk to use a heavier wood stick, smaller but heavier pads/equipment, not wear a mask and get zero of the current training methods.

 

[Doctor No]

I don’t get how people diminish MB30 when he’s the only goalie they changed the game for EVERYONE because of his greatness.

I'll start with Clint Benedict.

Marty was the common denominator throughout those years, so it seems a bit cynical to not give him some of the credit. Like I said earlier, some of the post-lockout Devils blue lines were rather forgettable but some folks act as though he always played behind a phalanx of All-Star D.

Caveat: what follows is largely speculation on my part.

I've heard it opined that Brodeur being able to get to dump-ins and transition the other way early caused his defensemen to be in vulnerable positions less often. This could lead to fewer penalties, either because of fewer direct hits in the corner, or because Brodeur's defensemen were consequently less tired and trying to keep up.

 

[Doctor No]

let’s stop pretending you can compare goalies who played 30-50 years apart, it’s not fair to the tendies being compared.

Sure, absolutely if you'd like. But if so, let's stop pretending that we're discussing "of all time".

 

[Russian_fanatic]

After Nieds and Stevens left who and what was this dominant defense we're talking about? Surely we're not saying Rafalski, Martin, and Oduya made Martin Brodeur.

Post Nieds/Stevens the byproduct of Rafalski, Martin, and Oduya (Brodeur) was 288-180-49 with 50 shutouts winning 2 Vezina trophies (placing #2 and #3 in other years), having 2 top 5 finishes in Hart Trophy voting, while back stopping them to the NHL finals in 2012. Behind Nieds and Stevens he had a 54.4 win percent. Post Nieds and Stevens he had a 54.7 win percent. Martin Brodeur WAS the system. The disrespect is truly remarkable.

 

[Frobbo]

Roy completely outplayed Marty in the 2001 finals. It wasn't even close, puck handling gaff notwithstanding.

 

[CuuuJooo]

You don't think a prime Dryden with modern equipment, modernized nutrition/training, and modernized recovery could play in the 90's NHL? Dryden was 6'4 200+ lbs and retired after the 78/79 season. Brodeur joined the NHL in 1991. Do you really think the evolution of the human body changed drastically in 12 years? That's like saying someone who last played in 2010 couldn't play in the NHL next season because human evolution has become so drastically different. The only thing that changes in 12 years is the equipment, training, nutrition, medicine, recovery methods, and the system on the ice. Talent is talent, regardless of era.


All things equal, the best players of 50 years ago could play today. Just like all things equal, the best player today could play 50 years ago. Unless you're planning on forcing Sawchuk to use a heavier wood stick, smaller but heavier pads/equipment, not wear a mask and get zero of the current training methods.

Dryden is an interesting case because he went out on top. He almost certainly could have played for longer, had he wished to do so, as he was only 31. The Canadiens did nothing after he left (until Roy came along).

Brodeur's legacy is definitely coloured by the fact that he really should have retired about three or four years before he actually did. That the Devils -- who KNEW he was going to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer -- cut him loose speaks volumes.

The "different eras" issue is tougher for goalies than for any other position. And there's no question that he revolutionized the game. But so did Plante. So did Hall. So did Esposito. Hell, so did Bill Durnan...

 

[RANDOMH3RO]

This thread inspired me to watch some old Marty games. I picked the 2006 opening playoff game of round 1 devils/rangers. He really displays a lot of skills that cannot be quantified by your typical goalie stats.

Within the first ten minutes Brodeur handles the puck about a dozen times. Rangers are dumping the puck in and Marty is handling it and transitioning to a dman that’s heading back up ice before the forechecking player is even below the hash marks. So casually neutralizing a forecheck with hockey IQ and puck handling. He handles the puck more in that one game than most modern goalies do in an entire season, and that is with the no play trapezoid in the place.

Another factor that shows up early is his aggressive rebound control. He’s like a billiards player. You’re not just trying to sink your shot, but you’re also moving the cue ball into position for your next shot. Brodeur wasn’t just trying to stop the puck, he’s stopping it and rebounding it into an area where it’s easily recovered by the defense and cleared. On an early penalty kill, he directs a low point shot with his blocker directly to one of his PK’ers in the high slot that is wide open and it’s an easy clear. It’s really interesting to watch especially in juxtaposition to the rookie Lundqvist who was the peak example of modern positioning butterfly goalies.

His unique abilities made him a very easy goalie to play in front of I think. Even when he was 40+ and clearly a below average puck stopper he could still manage his end of the rink so well. Not exactly an easy thing to quantify but an interesting aspect to watch.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Brodeur's first wife filed for divorce in the middle of the 2003 playoffs. There were rumors that he was having an affair with her sister.

Well, he ended up marrying said sister 5 years later.

Make of that what you will.

This is wrong, he married a woman who was briefly married to his Ex's brother.
Therefore he technically married a woman who was once his sister-in-law, by marriage not blood.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

I'll weigh in on Brodeur's legacy, he will always be a goalie that is overrated by Devil fans and underrated by the rest of the league. IMO he's clearly not the best ever to play and benefited from having a system that players bought into and played hard.
This shouldn't discount the fact that he was a HUGE part of that system and it wouldn't have been nearly as successful with anyone else in the net.

I would never argue with anyone that has Roy or Hasek over him as I agree, even if you've got him somewhere in your top 5, I get it. When you've got people saying he's barely top 10 or out of the top 10 that's where I'll take issue with it.

To bring up some off ice stuff and attempt to use them against him is silly, especially when people consistently get the story wrong but state it as fact.

 

[Voight]

He’s the GOAT by far

Most regular season wins. He carried numerous bad Devils teams to the playoffs - something Roy could never do

Weird take considering Roy only missed the playoffs twice in his entire career.

Speaking of playoffs, Roy has 38 more playoff wins... basically an entire regular season worth of wins.

 

[blundluntman]

This thread inspired me to watch some old Marty games. I picked the 2006 opening playoff game of round 1 devils/rangers. He really displays a lot of skills that cannot be quantified by your typical goalie stats.

Within the first ten minutes Brodeur handles the puck about a dozen times. Rangers are dumping the puck in and Marty is handling it and transitioning to a dman that’s heading back up ice before the forechecking player is even below the hash marks. So casually neutralizing a forecheck with hockey IQ and puck handling. He handles the puck more in that one game than most modern goalies do in an entire season, and that is with the no play trapezoid in the place.

Another factor that shows up early is his aggressive rebound control. He’s like a billiards player. You’re not just trying to sink your shot, but you’re also moving the cue ball into position for your next shot. Brodeur wasn’t just trying to stop the puck, he’s stopping it and rebounding it into an area where it’s easily recovered by the defense and cleared. On an early penalty kill, he directs a low point shot with his blocker directly to one of his PK’ers in the high slot that is wide open and it’s an easy clear. It’s really interesting to watch especially in juxtaposition to the rookie Lundqvist who was the peak example of modern positioning butterfly goalies.

His unique abilities made him a very easy goalie to play in front of I think. Even when he was 40+ and clearly a below average puck stopper he could still manage his end of the rink so well. Not exactly an easy thing to quantify but an interesting aspect to watch.

Very well said. Even as a guy that's not too crazy a fan of Brodeur, there's no doubt that he was one of the absolute x factors for the success of the Devils and in some way just as much of an influence on the quality of their defense. You could likely make an argument that the low amount of shots he tended to face was a direct result of his ability to control the puck since he was able to thwart offensive zone entries by controlling the puck and creating counter breakouts. He truly was a third defenseman for that team.

While I don't exactly think his raw skills as a goaltender and statistical success and awards catalogue are the same quality of other greats, he's still in the same realm as guys like Dryden, Tretiak and perhaps the trio of Hall/Sawchuk/Plante.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

Weird take considering Roy only missed the playoffs twice in his entire career.

Speaking of playoffs, Roy has 38 more playoff wins... basically an entire regular season worth of wins.

Brodeur played for worse teams.

He had one of the worst defensive cores in the league after Stevens and Niedermayer left and made the playoffs nearly every season winning numerous division titles and 4 vezinas.

His puck handling skills are one of the greatest of all time, and the NHL had to make a rule to stop him from getting the puck and flicking it out. So his pure stats and numbers don't take into account the amount of times he was able to prevent the other teams from keeping zone pressure.

This is why Brodeur is the greatest of all time because he has the most wins despite half a career with crappy offenses/defenses. When he had good teams he won 3 cups and went to 5 cup finals!

 

[Video Nasty]

Lots of great netminders in NHL history, so it’s not really a crime if someone ranks him 10th. I would put him closer to 5th myself than 10th.

And if I’m being honest, for the first half of Brodeur’s career, I didn’t consider that only Roy and Hasek were better. I thought Belfour was too, at the very least, at times. Brodeur built his case out more once all three were 37+ years old. We can lazily say that they all kept him from winning more hardware, but it’s not like every season prior to 2002-2003 was a direct runner up to Hasek and Roy in Vezina or Hart voting.

I ultimately would rank him higher than Belfour for total body of work from beginning to end, but I’m definitely pushing back a bit on Brodeur being known as a part of the three interchangeable best goalies ever group during at least his first 10 seasons of play.

And again for those ready to tear my head off, Brodeur is almost certainly top 5 for me.

Just pointing out that anywhere inside the top 10, other than top 3, isn’t blasphemy or disrespect.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

4 Vezinas, 3 Stanley Cups. 1st all time in Career Wins by a landslide. Starting Goaltender on the 2002 Gold Medal winning team. I'd say his legacy is doing just fine, regardless of anyone's idiosyncratic "ranking"

He is top 3 all time.

 

[SimpleJack]

He’s boring. Roy and Hasek are more cool and thus have more popular reputations.

Elite analysis ^^^^

 

[Saskatoon]

Talent was more condensed because of the small number of teams and you were playing stars like Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, Geoffrion, Beliveau, Bathgate, etc on a nightly basis basically. Plante's Hart trophy beat Bobby Hull who had the 3rd season in NHL history with 50 goals so their level of play wasn't just "good for a goalie", they were competing with all-time greats. Johnny Bower, Bill Durnan and Frank Brimsek (all top 15 goalie according to theHoH section) all had careers that overlapped with them. Basically, imagine the NHL today if you only had 6 teams and all the top Canadiens/Americans were forced to compete for 120 roster spots. Expansion tends to actually dilute the talent when you look at how scoring increased during the 70s and 93 for example. This is about legacy and all time rankings, you judge players relative to their peers at the time. They have just as much of an argument as Brodeur.

While Brodeur's career was overlapped with Roy and Hasek, he didn't win his first Vezina until Hasek missed a season and Roy was in his last season (Roy actually had a better sv% that season btw). You can argue the quality of competition for Brodeur was even lesser than Hall, Sawchuk and Plante when he won his vezinas. And even so, he was actually outperformed by players like Turco, Luongo and Kiprusoff in some of his Vezina seasons when you take wins out of the equation.

I remember being upset he won that one Vezina over Nabokov due to reputation.....looking back at 2008. Without digging further into 2008 itself (for example the West was stronger at the top than East in this era) I guess in hindsight it still was debatable. Can't really be that upset when his SV% was that much better. Maybe its fair to say it was a toss up and reputation pushed over the edge.

Nabokov
1st All Star Team
GP - 77
W - 46
GAA - 2.14
SV% - .910
SO - 6
SJS Points - 108
SJS GF -222
SJS GA - 193


Brodeur
2nd All Star Team
GP - 77
W - 44
GAA - 2.17
SV% - .920
SO - 4
NJD Points - 99
NJD GF - 206
NJD GA - 197

 

[MartyOwns]

You don't think a prime Dryden with modern equipment, modernized nutrition/training, and modernized recovery could play in the 90's NHL? Dryden was 6'4 200+ lbs and retired after the 78/79 season. Brodeur joined the NHL in 1991. Do you really think the evolution of the human body changed drastically in 12 years? That's like saying someone who last played in 2010 couldn't play in the NHL next season because human evolution has become so drastically different. The only thing that changes in 12 years is the equipment, training, nutrition, medicine, recovery methods, and the system on the ice. Talent is talent, regardless of era.


All things equal, the best players of 50 years ago could play today. Just like all things equal, the best player today could play 50 years ago. Unless you're planning on forcing Sawchuk to use a heavier wood stick, smaller but heavier pads/equipment, not wear a mask and get zero of the current training methods.

yes, that’s exactly what i’m saying. the human body didn’t evolve, the entire sport did top to bottom.

dryden played 400 games total, marty had nearly 700 wins. maybe dryden would’ve been ok, maybe he wouldn’t have been. i’m betting dryden wouldn’t even be considered top 10 of his new hypothetical generation given all the goalie talent of the 90’s/2000’s. you may think that’s dumb, which it kind of is given how nobody could know one way or the other, which is why i’m saying it’s ridiculous to compare the two. there was a thread here waaaay back in the day asking who was better between scott stevens and mark messier, which was equally ridiculous. not everything is apples to apples, and it makes a lot more sense to compare players of a similar age and position.

 

[Brodeur]

Not saying it's impossible, but crediting a team's penalty rate to their goalie seems like a stretch.

Just to expand on my previous late night thought, goalie isn't the only factor obviously. If a team had noticeable turnover or drop off for certain players that would/could affect things and also if there was a change in coach/playing style. And obviously a goalie will have less of an impact over offensive/neutral zone penalties.

That 2012 playoff article mentioned Ilya Bryzgalov which jogged my memory about that year's Coyotes. Dave Tippett took over as coach in 2009-10.

2009-10: 317 times shorthanded (18/30) - median (306)
2010-11: 296 times shorthanded (16/30) - median (294)
2011-12: 249 times shorthanded (7/30) - median (270)

2010-11
LW: Whitney-Korpikoski-Wolski*-Pyatt-Boedker-Bissonnette
C: Hanzal-Belanger-Fiddler-Turris-Ebbett
RW: Doan-Vrbata-Stempniak-Upshall

LD: Yandle-Jovanovski-OEL-Schlemko
RD: Aucoin-Morris-(Roszival)
G: Bryzgalov-LaBarbera

2011-12
LW: Whitney-Korpikoski-Pyatt-Torres-Bissonnette
C: Hanzal-Langkow-(Vermette)-Chipchura-Brule-O'Reilly-Turris
RW: Doan-Vrbata-Gordon-Boedkler

LD: Yandle-OEL-Klesla-Schlemko
RD: Aucoin-Morris-Roszival
G: Smith-LaBarbera

Similar looking squads. Main difference would be a good puckhandler in Mike Smith replacing Ilya Brzygalov. A young Oliver Ekman-Larsson absorbed Ed Jovanovski's minutes. And they added Raffi Torres as a pest who led their team in PIMs. Daymond Langkow (in his last NHL season) replaced Eric Belanger.

 

[Voight]

Brodeur played for worse teams.

He had one of the worst defensive cores in the league after Stevens and Niedermayer left and made the playoffs nearly every season winning numerous division titles and 4 vezinas.

His puck handling skills are one of the greatest of all time, and the NHL had to make a rule to stop him from getting the puck and flicking it out. So his pure stats and numbers don't take into account the amount of times he was able to prevent the other teams from keeping zone pressure.

This is why Brodeur is the greatest of all time because he has the most wins despite half a career with crappy offenses/defenses. When he had good teams he won 3 cups and went to 5 cup finals!

Roy played for some bad teams too. Hell, the 1993 Habs dont even sniff the finals if it wasn't for his heroics. Avalanche didn't win shit until he showed up.

Brdoeur is most definitely not the greatest of all time

 

[HBK27]

Weird take considering Roy only missed the playoffs twice in his entire career.

Speaking of playoffs, Roy has 38 more playoff wins... basically an entire regular season worth of wins.

Roy started 8 years ahead of Brodeur - during most of that stretch 16 out of 21 teams made the playoffs, which not only made it rather easy to qualify for the playoffs, but also meant there were some rather bad sub-.500 teams that you could also beat up on once you got there.

There were an average of 21.5 teams in the league per year the 8 full seasons that Roy played before Brodeur was in the league compared to 30 teams in the league each of the 10 full seasons that Brodeur played after Roy retired. So going from 74% of teams qualifying to 53%.

It's also a lot tougher to win over a 20-year span with one franchise that consistently trades away young players/picks and drafts late versus jumping ship midway through your career to go to a good young team that had already finished 2nd in the league the year prior and had two young future Hall-of-Fame centers already in place.

 

[Doctor No]

When we did The Hockey News' Top 100 Goalies of All Time back in 2018, top seven in order were Sawchuk, Roy, Brodeur, Plante, Hasek, Hall, Dryden (and if I recall correctly, there was a cliff after that). I recall arguments being made for any of those seven at the top.

My list had Roy #1 (although I noted that this was because we were instructed to consider NHL only, and I would have had Hasek #1 otherwise).

I'm going to attempt to get the "Brodeur should be #1" case attached to this e-mail, but it hinges on "wins and shutouts". Stay tuned (UPDATE - it worked!).

I was also surprised that Sawchuk came out #1 in our overall rankings - although I wish that his peak was better chronicled.

I believe that three active HFBoards posters were involved in the development of the 2018 THN list.

 

[KingAlfie11]

4 Vezinas, 3 Stanley Cups. 1st all time in Career Wins by a landslide. Starting Goaltender on the 2002 Gold Medal winning team. I'd say his legacy is doing just fine, regardless of anyone's idiosyncratic "ranking"

Totally agree, I'm 52 so I remember when Brodeur was at his peak and he was as good as anyone in the game, and he could handle the puck like no other, well him and Hextall were amazing at handling the puck, but Brodeur won everything there is to win a pro hockey. He's a legend

 

[Peltz]

As a Devils fan who watched his whole career, I do think he tends to get a bit overrated. He was a great goalie for us, but much of his success was due to playing in such a great defensive scheme for so many years.

If you put guys like Luongo, Price, Lundqvist, Kipper, Vokoun, or Rinne in Brodeur's role, I think they'd have just as much success. Those are all great goalies, which Brodeur was, but I just don't see him as a guy who separated himself from guys like that.

Price, Lundqvist, and Luongo may have been even better than Brodeur from a pure talent perspective.

But luck of what team you're on does matter. So Brodeur is solidly #3 for me.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

i might be a Devils fan but Brodeur is top-5 for me!

in most other sports guys who had longevity and sets lots of records are usually seen as such like Kareem

so i think that can apply here too!