What happened to Brodeur's legacy?

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Agreeing that he's overrated because he wasn't peppered with shots for his entire career is an odd take. From a devils fan.

He also played 70+ games on a routine basis, when no other goalies were doing that. In fact, he had a stretch of 70+ games in 12 out of 14 seasons. Thats way way more impressive than "he didnt face alot of shots" detracts from his career imo.

Context matters, his longevity was impressive regardless, but I think there is a lot of truth in saying that he benefited a ton from having such a great defensive team in front of him for the majority of his career.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Odd comparison as Beliveau is 30 years older than Gretzky, whereas Brodeur was very much a peer to Roy and Hasek (despite being 7 years younger).

I was speaking in terms of absolute greatness.

 

[The Tourist]

Why do you think Mike Smith is so good at handling the puck?

Marty taught him during his early years in Dallas.

 

[Doctor No]

Why do you think Mike Smith is so good at handling the puck?

Marty taught him during his early years in Dallas.

I got to skate with Mike and a few others in the late summer of 2002 in Salt Lake City (they apparently wanted someone there to build up the skaters' confidence by allowing many goals).

He was a great stickhandler even then (and he worked his ass off, too).

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

What is going on here.

From 2008 until 2015 Brodeur was very clearly seen as top 3 of all time and I don’t see any clear argument at putting a Plante, Sawchuck or Dryden ahead of him. He played longer, more consistently, won everything (numerous times) and the NHL literally had create the trapezoid because he was so dominant with puck handling.

The top 3 is clearly still Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. This thread is crazy.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

What is going on here.

From 2008 until 2015 Brodeur was very clearly seen as top 3 of all time and I don’t see any clear argument at putting a Plante, Sawchuck or Dryden ahead of him. He played longer, more consistently, won everything (numerous times) and the NHL literally had create the trapezoid because he was so dominant with puck handling.

The top 3 is clearly still Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. This thread is crazy.

This.

I never personally signed off on him being demoted from the big-3.

 

[Mobiandi]

Frankly always thought he was lionized because he was Canadian. 3rd all time is pretty generous

 

[blundluntman]

What is going on here.

From 2008 until 2015 Brodeur was very clearly seen as top 3 of all time and I don’t see any clear argument at putting a Plante, Sawchuck or Dryden ahead of him. He played longer, more consistently, won everything (numerous times) and the NHL literally had create the trapezoid because he was so dominant with puck handling.

The top 3 is clearly still Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. This thread is crazy.

Jacques Plante played until age 43, won a Hart Trophy, won 1 out of his 7 Vezinas at age 40, was a 3x 1st all star and 4x 2nd all star with a career that overlapped with Sawchuk and Glenn Hall. And NHL goalies literally started wearing Masks because of him. He also won twice as many cups. That's not even mentioning Hall who played until he was 40 and won 7 1st team all stars. Brodeur is not clearly top 3 at all.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Jacques Plante played until age 43, won a Hart Trophy, won 1 out of his 7 Vezinas at age 40, was a 3x 1st all star and 4x 2nd all star with a career that overlapped with Sawchuk and Glenn Hall. And NHL goalies literally started wearing Masks because of him. He also won twice as many cups. That's not even mentioning Hall who played until he was 40 and won 7 1st team all stars. Brodeur is not clearly top 3 at all.

Jaques Plante and Terry Sawchuk also played in a 6 team league when the position was wildly different.

Glenn Hall is top 5 goalie, but using 7 first team All-Stars in an era of 6 teams compared to Marty’s 3 in a 30 team league is not a great argument.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Jacques Plante played until age 43, won a Hart Trophy, won 1 out of his 7 Vezinas at age 40, was a 3x 1st all star and 4x 2nd all star with a career that overlapped with Sawchuk and Glenn Hall. And NHL goalies literally started wearing Masks because of him. He also won twice as many cups. That's not even mentioning Hall who played until he was 40 and won 7 1st team all stars. Brodeur is not clearly top 3 at all.

So strange bringing this up.

You have to put the individual awards in context:

7x 1st all star teams in a 6 goalie league.
5x Vezina's in a 6 goalie league.

(The Habs and Hawks didn't even carry a backup goalie).


Yeah he won twice as many cups when he was on a stacked team with 5 other teams.

The Habs won the cup 2 years before Plante joined the team, and went to the finals the years before.

After Plante left the Habs, they still continued to win 10 of the next 15 cups WITHOUT Plante.

 

[KeyserSoze81]

His legacy is a stupid trapezoid behind the net. Great players get their numbers retired, but few have a legacy in every NHL rink because you and your coach broke the game.

 

[blundluntman]

Jaques Plante and Terry Sawchuk also played in a 6 team league when the position was wildly different.

Glenn Hall is top 5 goalie, but using 7 first team All-Stars in an era of 6 teams compared to Marty’s 3 in a 30 team league is not a great argument.

Talent was more condensed because of the small number of teams and you were playing stars like Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, Geoffrion, Beliveau, Bathgate, etc on a nightly basis basically. Plante's Hart trophy beat Bobby Hull who had the 3rd season in NHL history with 50 goals so their level of play wasn't just "good for a goalie", they were competing with all-time greats. Johnny Bower, Bill Durnan and Frank Brimsek (all top 15 goalie according to theHoH section) all had careers that overlapped with them. Basically, imagine the NHL today if you only had 6 teams and all the top Canadiens/Americans were forced to compete for 120 roster spots. Expansion tends to actually dilute the talent when you look at how scoring increased during the 70s and 93 for example. This is about legacy and all time rankings, you judge players relative to their peers at the time. They have just as much of an argument as Brodeur.

While Brodeur's career was overlapped with Roy and Hasek, he didn't win his first Vezina until Hasek missed a season and Roy was in his last season (Roy actually had a better sv% that season btw). You can argue the quality of competition for Brodeur was even lesser than Hall, Sawchuk and Plante when he won his vezinas. And even so, he was actually outperformed by players like Turco, Luongo and Kiprusoff in some of his Vezina seasons when you take wins out of the equation.

 

[blundluntman]

So strange bringing this up.

You have to put the individual awards in context:

7x 1st all star teams in a 6 goalie league.
5x Vezina's in a 6 goalie league.

(The Habs and Hawks didn't even carry a backup goalie).


Yeah he won twice as many cups when he was on a stacked team with 5 other teams.

The Habs won the cup 2 years before Plante joined the team, and went to the finals the years before.

After Plante left the Habs, they still continued to win 10 of the next 15 cups WITHOUT Plante.

Like I said in my last post, talent was even more concentrated because there were fewer roster spots (I explain this in depth if you wanna look at my last post). 5 of the 6 starting goalies during their time are still considered to be top 15 goalies of all time to this day. Even if you take wins out of the equation, they still had to face all-time legends on a nightly basis since talent was so condensed. I don't think it's a strange point at all. Hall, Sawchuk and Plante are all universally considered to be top 5/6 goalies of all time by historians and experts. Not to mention, Plante and Hall both put up great numbers after the league expanded on worse teams (St. Louis and Toronto). Hall won a Vezina and 1st team all star, Plante won a 2nd team all star and put up a .944 sv % in 71. They were both in their late 30s/40s too iirc

 

[AlexGretzchenvid]

Actually, I rank Brodeur ahead of Roy and hasek, although both those goalies are barely an inch behind Brodeur.

Haven’t seen a goalie like him since price and Vaselinesky

 

[Doctor No]

Like I said in my last post, talent was even more concentrated because there were fewer roster spots (I explain this in depth if you wanna look at my last post). 5 of the 6 starting goalies during their time are still considered to be top 15 goalies of all time to this day. Even if you take wins out of the equation, they still had to face all-time legends on a nightly basis since talent was so condensed. I don't think it's a strange point at all. Hall, Sawchuk and Plante are all universally considered to be top 5/6 goalies of all time by historians and experts. Not to mention, Plante and Hall both put up great numbers after the league expanded on worse teams (St. Louis and Toronto). Hall won a Vezina and 1st team all star, Plante won a 2nd team all star and put up a .944 sv % in 71. They were both in their late 30s/40s too iirc

Adding to this, in a six-team league competing for awards and trophies, you beat out a dozen other solid goalies just by making a roster.

Gump Worsley won the Calder in 1953 and was rewarded by being demoted.

This is how close goaltenders were to losing their spot:

 

[blundluntman]

Adding to this, in a six-team league competing for awards and trophies, you beat out a dozen other solid goalies just by making a roster.

Gump Worsley won the Calder in 1953 and was rewarded by being demoted.

This is how close goaltenders were to losing their spot:

Exactly. People don't realize just how difficult it was to keep your starting position with so few roster spots up until your late 30s.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

Talent was more condensed because of the small number of teams and you were playing stars like Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, Geoffrion, Beliveau, Bathgate, etc on a nightly basis basically. Plante's Hart trophy beat Bobby Hull who had the 3rd season in NHL history with 50 goals so their level of play wasn't just "good for a goalie", they were competing with all-time greats. Johnny Bower, Bill Durnan and Frank Brimsek (all top 15 goalie according to theHoH section) all had careers that overlapped with them. Basically, imagine the NHL today if you only had 6 teams and all the top Canadiens/Americans were forced to compete for 120 roster spots. Expansion tends to actually dilute the talent when you look at how scoring increased during the 70s and 93 for example. This is about legacy and all time rankings, you judge players relative to their peers at the time. They have just as much of an argument as Brodeur.

While Brodeur's career was overlapped with Roy and Hasek, he didn't win his first Vezina until Hasek missed a season and Roy was in his last season (Roy actually had a better sv% that season btw). You can argue the quality of competition for Brodeur was even lesser than Hall, Sawchuk and Plante when he won his vezinas. And even so, he was actually outperformed by players like Turco, Luongo and Kiprusoff in some of his Vezina seasons when you take wins out of the equation.

I understand the concentration of talent from the O6 era and I’m not talking down to it. What I’m saying is that statistically it is not as challenging to win multiple awards or all star positions when you’re competing against 5 other goalies per year as opposed to 29. Just by definition you have a 20% chance as opposed to a 3% chance.

This is not taking anything away from the talent of those players, it’s just a pure numbers game.

I’m also not arguing that he wasn’t outplayed in 07, Luongo should have received that award, and Kiprusoff would have won the 04 Vezina if he played 15 more games.

But looking at Brodeur’s career, stats and peak as a whole, I don’t see any argument that holds weight in a 30 team league.

 

[Doctor No]

I understand the concentration of talent from the O6 era and I’m not talking down to it. What I’m saying is that statistically it is not as challenging to win multiple awards or all star positions when you’re competing against 5 other goalies per year as opposed to 29. Just by definition you have a 20% chance as opposed to a 3% chance.

(Competing against 5 other goalies is a 16.7% chance, not a 20% chance)

More importantly, this ignores my point above is that you're not competing against 5 other goalies. You're competing against quite a few more that you had to beat out just to have NHL employment.

There's plenty of evidence that the talent pool was large enough (and it was short-sightedness by the existing owners that kept the league at six for so long).

 

[BruinsFan37]

Brodeur redefined what it meant to be a goalie (and they changed the rules as a result). You could argue that based upon his impact to the game, he's #1.

Pre-trapezoid rule he's easily top-3 all time. If they never implemented the trapezoid, given his longevity he might of passed Roy and Hasek.

Post-trapezoid he came down a bit, but he was still a phenomenal goalie. No worse than top-5, but still top-3 in my book.

 

[Doctor No]

Brodeur redefined what it meant to be a goalie

So did Roy and Hasek. So did Plante and Hall. So did Sawchuk, Dryden and Tretiak for that matter.

 

[D Wakaluk]

I hated his ass and loved the way he went down as overrated swiss cheese.

So yeah, should retired earlier.

Brodeur - the ultimate system goalie

 

[Xirik]

I don't see the point of comparing older generation goalies who wore a facemask that barely helped or nothing at all and were mostly all stand up goalies. to goalies that have a cage and play using there whole body and treat their body like a temple (mostly) The dressing rooms down smell like smoke like they used to.

The game is so different between generations its like trying to compare cricket players with baseball players.

 

[Xirik]

I hated his ass and loved the way he went down as overrated swiss cheese.

So yeah, should retired earlier.

Brodeur - the ultimate system goalie

he was in the cup final at 40 years old. I don't know how you could say that is swiss cheese. Doing so would mean a lot of great goalies who sucked in their early and late 30s are "swiss cheese".

Quick, Fluery, Bernier, Crawford., would all be terrible goalies based off of what you are saying.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Jaques Plante and Terry Sawchuk also played in a 6 team league when the position was wildly different.

Glenn Hall is top 5 goalie, but using 7 first team All-Stars in an era of 6 teams compared to Marty’s 3 in a 30 team league is not a great argument.

Weird you would use the minimum number of teams for Plante And the maximum for Brodeur. Classic cherry pick.

If using minimums then Marty , 21 teams.

 

[MartyOwns]

How is that weird? It's pretty objectively clear that on a per game basis, his workload was pretty manageable in comparison to other goalies. He only faced 50 shots once in his entire career, and it took 17 years.

having read your posts before, you know better than this. one of the reasons marty’s SA was so low is 1) as you mentioned, he had some great defensemen over the years and 2) he was the greatest puck handler in league history. he completely changed the way teams forechecked as he rendered the standard dump and chase ineffective. they painted brand new lines on the ice to prevent him from being as effective.

you’re making it seem like he wouldn’t have been regarded as a top all time goalie if he faced 5 shots more per game. you’re also making it seem like facing fewer shots on net is always beneficial for goalies, which is not necessarily true.

i haven’t read through the whole thread, so my apologies if i’m mischaracterizing your point.