Welcome to (failed) TED Talk - TED is dead.

[XX]

I'm supporting the team staying in Arizona, no matter which town it is. But, it's always good to know who else wants to pilfer your team, so you can tell them to go screw themselves.

Some cities will never have an owner willing to pay expansion prices, so they're forgiven for wanting hockey. Some of them might even take real good care of the Coyotes. Anywhere but Houston, please.

For you guys comparing Mesa and Glendale.

Good thing this guy is a retired graphic artist because exactly one of those things is relevant (population) and it's decidedly in Mesa's favor. Nobody is building a Westgate and Westgate wasn't owned by the Coyotes. Fiesta site is ~25% larger than TED by square footage without removing any existing structure besides the mall. There are some tall office buildings in that area too so height is not likely to be a limiting factor.

Yeah it's about ~15 minutes deeper into the EV than I'd like but if a tribal venture is not an option it's all they have unless AM sells to Ishbia (which would be fantastic).

 

[Dirty Old Man]

One thing about saying the site is in Mesa, is that some locals and most outsiders assume...and not unreasonably so...the center of Mesa. But it kinda isn't - the 4 main cities in that region: Mesa, Tempe, Chandler, Gilbert - Fiesta Mall is very close to where they all meet. If you go 1 mile west you're in Tempe, 2 miles south is Chandler, 1.5 miles southeast is Gilbert. And those cities are almost completely built out, dense, and large: 145, 65, 70, 40 square miles. You can fault them for not planning for changing demographics and how people shop, but they nailed the location,

 

[JasonDemersWasOkay]

One thing about saying the site is in Mesa, is that some locals and most outsiders assume...and not unreasonably so...the center of Mesa. But it kinda isn't - the 4 main cities in that region: Mesa, Tempe, Chandler, Gilbert - Fiesta Mall is very close to where they all meet. If you go 1 mile west you're in Tempe, 2 miles south is Chandler, 1.5 miles southeast is Gilbert. And those cities are almost completely built out, dense, and large: 145, 65, 70, 40 square miles. You can fault them for not planning for changing demographics and how people shop, but they nailed the location,

This is exactly right, it’s suburban like Glendale. But coming from someone who’s grown up right in this area until just this past year (where I’ve been in buckeye yuck) this area of Mesa is very very different from westgate. Much more dense

 

[0point1]

The more I think about the Fiesta site the more it makes sense. It helps Mesa fill in this huge parcel with a great asset that can lift the neighborhoods around it up, it's got great freeway access, like Dirty Old Man said... it's close to Chandler, Tempe, and Gilbert, it's only 6.5 miles (as the crow flies from the TED site), light rail is only 3 miles away and could easily add a branch/spur, still relatively close to Scottsdale, and it's within a 25 minute drive of 1.5 million people.

For AM the positives would be: the land will be significantly cheaper and construction can start much faster not having to clean up a toxic dump, the land area is twice the size of TED, the site already has a lot of infrastructure from the former mall, and would be the only sportsbook in that whole area. He likely could build much higher than at the TED site.

The negative would be: will people want to buy high end condos there? My guess is probably not as much as the TED site. Same for high end hotel and restaurants. Things would have to be pared back a bit I think.

 

[Sinurgy]

The negative would be: will people want to buy high end condos there? My guess is probably not as much as the TED site. Same for high end hotel and restaurants. Things would have to be pared back a bit I think.

It's a bit of a distressed area, not the kind of place one would typically pay big bucks for a high end condo. That said if there's a giant MED (Mesa Entertainment District) right there and they can get the light rail down there that might be enough to move the needle.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Everyone knows the benefit of owning a sports team is a favorable land deal and a really good anchor. The Team helps ensure much more profit for the Developer.

Did the TED land deal have more favorable terms because it included a stadium? I don't think so. In the case of the TED, being the Coyotes owner seemed to work against him. Take the TED plan, remove the stadium, add something that would appease the ding bats, and the project might have passed. Many land developers make money WITHOUT owning a pro sports team. You don't need one to do the other.

More evidence that stadium/land development deals are not the key to HOCKEY success:
* Dallas Stars - stadium owned by the city
* Carolina - owned by a govt created entity
* Tampa - County owned
* Florida - County owned

 

[cobra427]

The more I think about the Fiesta site the more it makes sense. It helps Mesa fill in this huge parcel with a great asset that can lift the neighborhoods around it up, it's got great freeway access, like Dirty Old Man said... it's close to Chandler, Tempe, and Gilbert, it's only 6.5 miles (as the crow flies from the TED site), light rail is only 3 miles away and could easily add a branch/spur, still relatively close to Scottsdale, and it's within a 25 minute drive of 1.5 million people.

For AM the positives would be: the land will be significantly cheaper and construction can start much faster not having to clean up a toxic dump, the land area is twice the size of TED, the site already has a lot of infrastructure from the former mall, and would be the only sportsbook in that whole area. He likely could build much higher than at the TED site.

The negative would be: will people want to buy high end condos there? My guess is probably not as much as the TED site. Same for high end hotel and restaurants. Things would have to be pared back a bit I think.

It is better than Glendale location wise closer to fan base. I just don't think it will work unless the arena is in an "A" location, meaning a destination area for nightlife, business owners, and tourists. TED was transplanting Westgate into an "A" location. The key is the location that will attract the casual fans and the amenities surrounding it. I think you need all of it to work. Los Arcos would have been a great spot.

Like our rebuild, this has been a waste of 1 year trying to get this done, back to the drawing board now.

 

[Jamieh]

Did the TED land deal have more favorable terms because it included a stadium? I don't think so. In the case of the TED, being the Coyotes owner seemed to work against him. Take the TED plan, remove the stadium, add something that would appease the ding bats, and the project might have passed. Many land developers make money WITHOUT owning a pro sports team. You don't need one to do the other.

More evidence that stadium/land development deals are not the key to HOCKEY success:
* Dallas Stars - stadium owned by the city
* Carolina - owned by a govt created entity
* Tampa - County owned
* Florida - County owned

Those places are decades ago, the world of sports has changed. Ottawa is currently case. No way in hell that team is worth anywhere near a billion dollars but real estate developers are lining up to pay it as they are going to get access to prime real estate which can make them a lot of money. There are always exceptions but Edmonton and now Calgary both got land for development with their arena deals and they are getting plenty of public dollars as well.

 

[rt]

It's a bit of a distressed area, not the kind of place one would typically pay big bucks for a high end condo. That said if there's a giant MED (Mesa Entertainment District) right there and they can get the light rail down there that might be enough to move the needle.

The downtown part is getting re-re-vitalized again, too. Dobson from Guadalupe all the way north is now so many Asian restaurants, markets and other businesses. Which is quite cool. And I’m pretty sure Dobson Ranch has somehow remained a nice area the entire time. So, I guess maybe that western end of Mesa, with an arena to bridge and anchor, could end up just being an extension of the niceness of Tempe.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

There would certainly be less traffic congestion at Fiesta Mall location vs Tempe

 

[Jakey53]

Surprise surprise...as I said no one who is doing the reporting knows the true facts...yet we take every report as Gospel.

I'm still waiting for the true facts...and they may never come because there are too many people, particularly journalists, who should no longer hold that title.

Exactly. I find it funny that the people we diss on all the time because of all the bullshit they say we now believe everything they say as "gospel."

 

[AZviaNJ]

Anybody else see the report on Connecticut's Governor planning on talking to the League next week about having the Yotes move to Hartford? Long shot to happen, but interesting nonetheless.

Hartford will always push for an NHL return but there are many bigger cities ahead of them.

 

[Jakey53]

That’s a pretty big f***up

Are you surprised? That number is probably wrong as well.

 

[Jakey53]

It’s also only a few miles from the Scottsdale border, only a few miles from the Gilbert border and only a few miles from the Chandler border.

But it's "within the borders" that bother me. Half a mile north you think you are in a third world country.

 

[Jakey53]

It doesn’t make any sense for the NHL to go to dying cities like Milwaukee or Hartford.

Phoenix/The Valley is the fastest growing city in America. Population is something like 4 mil when you add up Phoenix, Scottsdale, and the like 10 other surrounding cities.

I believe metro Phoenix is 5 mil.

 

[rt]

It is better than Glendale location wise closer to fan base. I just don't think it will work unless the arena is in an "A" location, meaning a destination area for nightlife, business owners, and tourists. TED was transplanting Westgate into an "A" location. The key is the location that will attract the casual fans and the amenities surrounding it. I think you need all of it to work. Los Arcos would have been a great spot.

Like our rebuild, this has been a waste of 1 year trying to get this done, back to the drawing board now.

True. That’s a problem with Fiesta. And I think maybe that’s what @Sinurgy was trying to say all along during our spat yesterday. Which I agree with.

There’s a sizable gap between the nice Riverview, Sloan Park, Hohokam area and the Fiesta area, too. So even if the Tempe Marketplace vibe already extends over to Riverview and the baseball fields, and even if south of there there’s the hockey stadium and huge entertainment district plan, there’s that gap. There’s also that gap between these things and the Downtown Mesa revitalization effort. Very much a checkerboard.

 

[rt]

But it's "within the borders" that bother me. Half a mile north you think you are in a third world country.

Exactly.

I don’t know how neighborhoods improve. Would having another point (New Fiesta Arena) with which to triangulate between Riverview and Downton Mesa be something that improves all of the areas in between over time?

 

[LuckyNumber11]

Exactly.

I don’t know how neighborhoods improve. Would having another point (New Fiesta Arena) with which to triangulate between Riverview and Downton Mesa be something that improves all of the areas in between over time?

Probably depends on if you believe increased police presence helps or hurts a neighborhood

 

[MIGs Dog]

Probably depends on if you believe increased police presence helps or hurts a neighborhood

Police go where the crime is.

 

[wbwing]

Remember that location across from Tempe Marketplace. On ASU land, that IceEdge wanted to build? If Mereulo doesn't need a subsidy, could he build there?

 

[rt]

Remember that location across from Tempe Marketplace. On ASU land, that IceEdge wanted to build? If Mereulo doesn't need a subsidy, could he build there?

Taking Karsten? I think ASU still owns that? Not sure.

Reading this is like the Twilight Zone

Arizona Coyotes announce new arena plans for NHL, ASU hockey - The Arizona State Press

The Coyotes plan to construct hockey facilities for both NHL and college games on ASU Karsten Golf Course in Tempe.

www.statepress.com

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

The window to build a new place being fairly tight with the Mullett arena deal and all, is there any way the process could be accelerated fast enough to get shovels into the ground at some point this summer? That would have to be the target right? Sorry if it's a bit of a dumb question (^^)

 

[Summer Rose]

I’m an out of towner now so I’m biased, but I don’t give a flying f*** where they build the arena as long as they do it somewhere in the Phoenix area and fast.

Anyone agree?

 

[rt]

The window to build a new place being fairly tight with the Mullett arena deal and all, is there any way the process could be accelerated fast enough to get shovels into the ground at some point this summer? That would have to be the target right? Sorry if it's a bit of a dumb question (^^)

The good news is there isn’t a 8-9mo toxic waste dump remediation project any longer. And they aren’t likely to do anything involving the voters again. So thing will necessarily be accelerated.

 

[mouser]

Did the TED land deal have more favorable terms because it included a stadium? I don't think so. In the case of the TED, being the Coyotes owner seemed to work against him. Take the TED plan, remove the stadium, add something that would appease the ding bats, and the project might have passed. Many land developers make money WITHOUT owning a pro sports team. You don't need one to do the other.

More evidence that stadium/land development deals are not the key to HOCKEY success:
* Dallas Stars - stadium owned by the city
* Carolina - owned by a govt created entity
* Tampa - County owned
* Florida - County owned

The most critical element is operating the arena, which all of Dallas, Carolina, Tampa and Florida do. Absent some public entity to fund an arena and hand over the keys most privately funded arenas aren't going to be profitable as a standalone investment. There are exceptions, but they tend to be in the biggest markets hosting multiple pro teams.